Is Pep the greatest manager of all time?

No. It's not as simple as counting major trophies.

Pep is for sure one of the best managers of all time, but what Fergie did with Aberdeen and then United will probably never be matched.
 
Dansk said:
but he still has never taken anything less than the strongest squad in a given league and made more of it than the sum of its parts
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He absolutely did. Even this year you have a team on the way to a treble with the likes of Stones, Ake & Akanji performing key roles in it.
 
No.

Not even close, especially with all the cheating with 2 of the clubs he managed.
 
harms said:
He absolutely did. Even this year you have a team on the way to a treble with the likes of Stones, Ake & Akanji performing key roles in it.
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Yes, but it still is the strongest squad in the league, isn't it?
 
VeevaVee said:
Pep is an excellent coach but he only matches SAF on some aspects and pales in comparison on others.
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He also is significantly better than Sir Alex at some parts of the game. He's probably the greatest tactician ever (and that's a high claim considering the competition) and he outplayed Fergie both times they've met by a ridiculous margin — and that's against Sir Alex's most tactically astute team. Is he the unquestionable GOAT? Obviously not at this point. But there's no good in underrating him pointlessly, he's clearly already in the conversation and he has some aspects in his game that he's better than any other candidate.

Judging by the trajectory of his career he's likely going to end up as the one though.
 
No, his sides are boring as hell to watch, they just keep the ball until the other side just falls asleep,
He's never done anything hard, City are expected to win everything as they cheat,
 
I think Pep is masterful at creating the best team, he has no rival there but there are other parts to management that he's just not been tested in that make it really difficult to give him that title.

He's never been in the position Jose was in when he went to Real Madrid, Klopp at Liverpool or SAF when Mourinho and the invincibles took over. Pep has hardly ever had to overcome major obstacles the other greats faced. Jose's Madrid and Klopp's Liverpool have been his two toughest competitors but Pep's teams still had the better teams on paper and on the pitch.

No one is saying he needs to manage Villa or anything but he's been coaching from positions of privilege really.

Saying that, If I had unlimited funds Pep is by far and away my first choice. He's shown he raises the bar to a completely new level in every league he goes to and is the greatest innovator of this generation. His style of play is also unrivalled.
 
stefan92 said:
Yes, but it still is the strongest squad in the league, isn't it?
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Yes but it's not my point. This poster said that he doesn't make his squads better than the sum of its part but he clearly does. It's not a coincidence that so many players drastically improve under his coaching (I'm not even talking about positional all-time greats that literally owe him their career like Busquets) and/or find different way to play (Messi, Lahm, Cancelo or even Stones from the very recent past). I also don't think that this team is as impressive individually than his Barcelona was for example but you can argue that it's at least comparable collectively.
 
VeevaVee said:
Nah. At City he has one single player brought through the academy. Fergie went through multiple generations and made them in to league winners, whether they were quality enough or not.

Pep is an excellent coach but he only matches SAF on some aspects and pales in comparison on others.

People forget just how well we played at our best. We had some meh periods, but the resilience and motivation instilled by SAF usually saw us through until we found form again. You see some of that with City now. That’s where he matches Fergie I think.
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An excellent coach of players already the best in their leagues? He doesn’t waste much time improving good players. Compare that to some of the teams SAF out out for us in his later years which stank of bang average on paper.
 
harms said:
He also is significantly better than Sir Alex at some parts of the game. He's probably the greatest tactician ever (and that's a high claim considering the competition) and he outplayed Fergie both times they've met by a ridiculous margin — and that's against Sir Alex's most tactically astute team. Is he the unquestionable GOAT? Obviously not at this point. But there's no good in underrating him pointlessly, he's clearly already in the conversation and he has some aspects in his game that he's better than any other candidate.

Judging by the trajectory of his career he's likely going to end up as the one though.
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Eh? 2011 was probably against SAF’s weakest and oldest United team (apart from maybe his team in 1986-1989).
Also he shouldn’t even be in the finals. Scandalous referee against Chelsea in 2009 and lucky red card for Madrid in 2011.
Then in 2012 Di Matteo tactically outdid him with 10 men and a much weaker team.
Pep is a very good coach but not as good a tactician.
 
Overall there's too many different things to coaching to clearly determine the GOAT.
If you picking a fantasy all-time squad and need a manager to fully maximize its potential, you'd be a fool to pass up on Guardiola though (even though there are more than a few that I'd pick before him in a hypothetical with a clear underdog team that needs to break through).
 
harms said:
He absolutely did. Even this year you have a team on the way to a treble with the likes of Stones, Ake & Akanji performing key roles in it.
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We can recite the worst three players of any given team that won a lot, but that doesn't mean much. The fact of the matter is that I see no signs that Pep is pushing players to play better than they would have with any competent manager. He has simply been allowed to spend enough time managing a club with unlimited funds to where building a team like the current City one is frankly a given. If he ever builds a strong team without the circumstances that make it a given, I'll say that he should be praised for it. That is not the case here, though.

I think there's easily six or eight managers in the world now who would have done the very same thing if they had unlimited funds and zero pressure, and they might not have bungled their European campaigns year after year until they finally ran into a season where all the usual threats were having a lean year and they got to play a CL final against Inter of all people. It'll be unbearable when they win tomorrow and all the pundits cream themselves, claiming that it's some amazing feat for City to have made it through Real Madrid and Bayern, both in the worst state they've been in for a decade, and then Inter who have just begun to sniff at the first possible signs of a potential revival.
 
harms said:
He also is significantly better than Sir Alex at some parts of the game. He's probably the greatest tactician ever
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Wait. Hahaha. Are we talking about the same man who has a long history of fecking up his European campaigns with harebrained tactics that failed him?
 
No. What pep did at Barca was impressive. But since then he's opted for the one easy challenge after another. Playing FM with cheat codes isnt massively impressive
 
El Jefe said:
I think Pep is masterful at creating the best team, he has no rival there but there are other parts to management that he's just not been tested in that make it really difficult to give him that title.

He's never been in the position Jose was in when he went to Real Madrid, Klopp at Liverpool or SAF when Mourinho and the invincibles took over. Pep has hardly ever had to overcome major obstacles the other greats faced. Jose's Madrid and Klopp's Liverpool have been his two toughest competitors but Pep's teams still had the better teams on paper and on the pitch.

No one is saying he needs to manage Villa or anything but he's been coaching from positions of privilege really.

Saying that, If I had unlimited funds Pep is by far and away my first choice. He's shown he raises the bar to a completely new level in every league he goes to and is the greatest innovator of this generation. His style of play is also unrivalled.
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Or jose's treble with Inter or winning the cl with porto.
 
harms said:
Yes but it's not my point. This poster said that he doesn't make his squads better than the sum of its part but he clearly does.
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Oops my bad. I read it as he takes the best squad and does make it better, so I actually agree on this point with you.
 
Pep has never been in charge of a club that wasnt well structured. He has landed at clubs that has given him the resource to thrive.

Let me see what Pochettino does at a club like Chelsea first to make such a conclusion. Unlike pep, Pochettino has turned around clubs that does not have the right resources. Achieving things at Spurs and Southampton that no other manager has achieved yet or will probably not achieve in awhile. At Psg, he coached an uncoachable team into the champion league semi finals, won all the domestic cups, went unbeaten at home, and got the best out of a generational talent, who has been struggling since he left. I feel the platform is there for Pochettino to be in that bracket, if Bohley doesn't mess things up. If there is any coaches Bohley has to back, it is the one that he hired right now.

However, as it stands, I believe pep is going to be the best because of how his team plays and the ability to perform that way consistently over a long period of time. Moreover, the trophies he has won. Sir Alex is 1st on that list. And mourinho 2nd. But after the treble, pep will be 2nd and if pep can continue this for few more years, he will easily be 1st. But once again, let see how Pochettino does at Chelsea because he has platform now that he can truly show what he is capable of if Bohley doesn't mess things up.
 
When he goes to a club (not owned by a country) who hasn't won a title in like 20 plus years and makes them the biggest club on the planet. He can be in the discussion.
A really silly question in a United forum.
 
:lol: Oh yes, when we speak about GOAT managers, Poch just cannot be ignored. His records are phenomenal.
 
Amadaeus said:
Let me see what Pochettino does at a club like Chelsea first to make such a conclusion
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Now that's a name I did not expect to see in this conversation :lol:

Moyes just won the Conference League with West Ham and over-achieved with Everton. He deserves a mention too!
 
The best managers in history make squads punch above their weight and have to balance a budget. Pep ran away when Mou won the domestic double. What Fergie did at Aberdeen and United is completely different. I do think Pep is a all time great but most of his career is playing on easy mode with cheats and he already should have more cl's than he will very shortly. He is a great no doubt but not the greatest.
 
No chance, he’s never had to turn a team around or work with limited resources. He’s done amazing things with amazing squads, credit for that, but you go to an already good City side and have a blank chequebook it really helps.

Come and manage Man Utd and give the club your top five targets and then watch us spend all summer getting just one, and then offer a half-rate alternative with two days of the transfer window left. If he can be as successful in that scenario then perhaps he could be considered the best. Sell Ronaldo and replace him with Antonio Valencia, Obertan, and Michael Owen. I don’t want to downplay the incredibly dominating and impressive football his teams play, but SAF would also be winning the league with the squad he has at City. Pep ain’t winning the title with some of the squads Fergie won it with and even the biggest Pep lovers know this. When he takes a club that’s well off the pace and turns them in to a great team then he can be considered.
 
I don't think United bias is that strong in this one, considering I am sure there's good amount of United fans that think Klopp is arguably at least on par, if not better than him. Looking just at 2010.-2020. period you can argue that even Zidane was better than him. Also I am not sure why is he already regarded as better than Mourinho? Mourinho might be past it, but he is not any worse than Pep so far in his career? And he did it with far worse teams and less resources than him too.

But I think he will eventually become the GOAT, considering his only real threat at the moment is Klopp, and he is way smarter than Klopp when choosing his teams and level of expectation.
 
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If he won the treble tomorrow, he would be the only manager who had won the treble twice, with 2 different clubs too.

I think he will be very much in contention.
 
Everything has been in his favour, so it's a no from me.

As people have already mentioned. Look at fergie with Aberdeen and United, also Brian Clough won back to back European cups with Nottingham forest. Pep has always had the odds in his side.
 
Amar__ said:
I don't think United bias is that strong in this one, considering I am sure there's good amount of United fans that think Klopp is arguably at least on par, if not better than him.

But I think he will eventually become the GOAT, considering he is smarter than Klopp when choosing his teams and level of expectation.
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I think Klopp is more the romantic than Pep. I don't think his wish was just having as many trophies as possible otherwise he would have managed Bayern Munich after Dortmund.
 
Bebestation said:
I think he’s probably the most tactically influential manager I’ve seen with my own eyes.

Doesn’t mean he got the best possible results, though he has time to change that.

At the same time I think some of his players are a bit lucky to be managed by him & have been slight overrated from his class ability as a coach.
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I'd agree with that - but I can't say he's the best when he's only ever had amazing players - we've never seen him as the underdog as it were.

But no doubt can the guy make players so much better.
 
He has a case in terms of dominance of domestic competitions but will always have the fact that he's only ever done it with the best resources available hanging over him. I'd absolutely love to see what he could do at a club without oil wealth or a clear financial advantage/GOAT generation of academy products. Without doing that there will always be an asterisk. SAF doing what he did with Aberdeen on top of his accomplishements with United put him over Pep head to head and then throughout history there'sa handful of other names you can make a case for too.
 
Irrational. said:
After reading another nauseating suckjob piece by Ballbag on the BBC website, it appears he has already been crowned the GOAT manager by some.

What do we think? We may have a slightly biased view on this platform but for me he will never usurp Sir Alex in the managerial standings. I just can’t ignore the fact that he’s played Football Manager with every club he’s been at. He’s never been an underdog manager.

He has introduced a revolutionary style of football, but then so did Clop.
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There are roo many great managers to say anyone is the GOAT definitely and it is totally different from the player debate for many reasons.

To restrict it to the tine I have been watching football, SAF is number one IMO in European club football because he built several winning teams over a 20+ year period and also won with Aberdeen. However, I will say that the Pep Barca team with Messi, Xavi Iniesta, Busquets, Villa, Pique, Puyol, Abidal etc is by far the best team I have ever seen.
 
His work at Barcelona was easily his most impressive. Though that team was loaded with phenomenal players, including a Messi on the cusp of becoming the undisputed best player in the world, and others like Xavi and Iniesta entering their primes, they had severely underperformed the previous season. Lucky to win the 2009 CL after the debacle at Stamford Bridge, but still. The 10/11 Barcelona team is arguably the greatest ever, but worth noting that they failed in both the league and the CL (losing to a terrible Chelsea team) the following season, and won the league with 9 more points the season after Pep left, and won another Treble 2 years later, which does put his achievements there in perspective somewhat.

At Bayern he took over the best team in the world and failed to win another CL, which was the benchmark for success there.

His City success is tainted as we all know.

Great coach, and brilliant tactician, but that's it for the moment. Worth pointing out that he's also a bald wanker.
 
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Amar__ said:
But I think he will eventually become the GOAT, considering he is smarter than Klopp when choosing his teams and level of expectation.
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Is he really? Klopp has developed a quasi-religious following at all his stations, so he definitely chose teams where he was able to more than fulfill the expectations.

Pep is the one who isn't successful in that regard.
 
Disregarding rivalries and with as much objectivity i can muster, he's clearly an exceptional manager. Is he the best? Honestly, no!

It's an unpopular opinion but look at the clubs he's managed and tell me that it wasn't an easy ride.
  • Barca: inherits three of the greatest players of all time in Xavi, Iniesta and Messi, and a team that were semi-finalists in the champions league the year before he came in, calls it quits when Jose defeated him with that Real Madrid side.
  • Bayern: a one club league, and STILL didn't win the champions league.
  • City- unlimited wealth with, to be fair, a fantastic (albeit corrupt) structure.
It's really not sour grapes or aiming a few digs to call these things out or ask genuine questions about his ability when he picks his clubs the way he does.

Could he build up a club or take on a struggling giant like Klopp did with Dortmund or Liverpool? Rebuild a club from the ground up again like SAF did? Who knows. I doubt he'd try it anytime soon. As small time and cringy as Ole's comment about 'trophies being an ego thing for managers' i can weirdly see his point, even if he expressed it badly.
 
The holy trinity 68 said:
The problem is, he's always either managed the best team in the league or the team with the most resources in the league. I don't think he could do what Klopp did at Liverpool for example.

If Sir Alex went to Barca, Bayern and City instead of Pep, then he would have won just as much, but Pep could not have done what Sir Alex did at Aberdeen then rebuild United and continue to do so, while not being able to outspend everyone most years.

With unlimited funds Pep is amazing obviously, but if Barca and City get convicted, then it taints his legacy because he was at both of them clubs when the crimes were committed.
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:lol:
 
Amadaeus said:
Pep has never been in charge of a club that wasnt well structured. He has landed at clubs that has given him the resource to thrive.

Let me see what Pochettino does at a club like Chelsea first to make such a conclusion. Unlike pep, Pochettino has turned around clubs that does not have the right resources. Achieving things at Spurs and Southampton that no other manager has achieved yet or will probably not achieve in awhile. At Psg, he coached an uncoachable team into the champion league semi finals, won all the domestic cups, went unbeaten at home, and got the best out of a generational talent, who has been struggling since he left. I feel the platform is there for Pochettino to be in that bracket, if Bohley doesn't mess things up. If there is any coaches Bohley has to back, it is the one that he hired right now.

However, as it stands, I believe pep is going to be the best because of how his team plays and the ability to perform that way consistently over a long period of time. Moreover, the trophies he has won. Sir Alex is 1st on that list. And mourinho 2nd. But after the treble, pep will be 2nd and if pep can continue this for few more years, he will easily be 1st. But once again, let see how Pochettino does at Chelsea because he has platform now that he can truly show what he is capable of if Bohley doesn't mess things up.
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:lol:
 
Amadaeus said:
Pep has never been in charge of a club that wasnt well structured. He has landed at clubs that has given him the resource to thrive.

Let me see what Pochettino does at a club like Chelsea first to make such a conclusion. Unlike pep, Pochettino has turned around clubs that does not have the right resources. Achieving things at Spurs and Southampton that no other manager has achieved yet or will probably not achieve in awhile. At Psg, he coached an uncoachable team into the champion league semi finals, won all the domestic cups, went unbeaten at home, and got the best out of a generational talent, who has been struggling since he left. I feel the platform is there for Pochettino to be in that bracket, if Bohley doesn't mess things up. If there is any coaches Bohley has to back, it is the one that he hired right now.

However, as it stands, I believe pep is going to be the best because of how his team plays and the ability to perform that way consistently over a long period of time. Moreover, the trophies he has won. Sir Alex is 1st on that list. And mourinho 2nd. But after the treble, pep will be 2nd and if pep can continue this for few more years, he will easily be 1st. But once again, let see how Pochettino does at Chelsea because he has platform now that he can truly show what he is capable of if Bohley doesn't mess things up.
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Agreed. Do you think Poch has done enough to be considered above SAF or not yet? I think they're neck and neck as things stand.
 
stefan92 said:
Is he really? Klopp has developed a quasi-religious following at all his stations, so he definitely chose teams where he was able to more than fulfill the expectations.

Pep is the one who isn't successful in that regard.
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Pep has easily fullfiled the expectations of winning league titles at Bayern and City. Far worse managers have done it.

Liverpool, alongside United was easily the biggest challenge manager could take few years ago. Liverpool were probably even tougher considering they had less resources to spend.
 
I think the best way to answer this is why would he be in the conversation for the GOAT? As in genuine question for any City/Pep fans, what has he done that separates him from the best managers out there?

The type of person who thinks he is the best ever is the type who in 20 years time will Google 'Haaland career goals' then Google 'Messi career goals' and come to the conclusion Haaland was a better footballer than Messi. They won't use any kind of critical thinking or context i.e. Haaland may well become a better goalscorer than Messi but he can't lace his boots as a footballer.

As an added thought - Pep's 2 CL wins came with huge amounts of controversy about how they got through their games versus Chelsea and Arsenal, his potential CL win this weekend will also be mired in controversy for cheating.
 
Irwin99 said:
Disregarding rivalries and with as much objectivity i can muster, he's clearly an exceptional manager. Is he the best? Honestly, no!

It's an unpopular opinion but look at the clubs he's managed and tell me that it wasn't an easy ride.
  • Barca: inherits three of the greatest players of all time in Xavi, Iniesta and Messi, and a team that were semi-finalists in the champions league the year before he came in, calls it quits when Jose defeated him with that Real Madrid side.
  • Bayern: a one club league, and STILL didn't win the champions league.
  • City- unlimited wealth with, to be fair, a fantastic (albeit corrupt) structure.
It's really not sour grapes or aiming a few digs to call these things out or ask genuine questions about his ability when he picks his clubs the way he does.

Could he build up a club or take on a struggling giant like Klopp did with Dortmund or Liverpool? Rebuild a club from the ground up again like SAF did? Who knows. I doubt he'd try it anytime soon. As small time and cringy as Ole's comment about 'trophies being an ego thing for managers' i can weirdly see his point, even if he expressed it badly.
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Not to mention, he inherited a UCL winning Bayern team, and later, Flick has won the same number of trophies at Bayern including the UCL in less time than Pep.
 
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