Is our Midfield that Bad?

Rossa said:
He's always been slow. Carrick was always slow. You don't have to be fast to be good. Ask Scholes or Pirlo. He's been in poor formn it doesn't necessarily mean he's done as some would suggest. He might be, but I doubt it's because of physical decline.
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I'm not sure how to break it down to you, but Matic isn't close to the passer Scholes, Carrick, or Pirlo were. And in the case of Carrick, isn't as good in his defensive positioning. I've never made the argument that just because you're slow means you can't play for United. In the case of Matic, I thought it goes without saying that his lack of speed ruins anything positive he can provide. Not good enough defensively through positioning, and his pace ruins his ability to track back and help out the defense. So that leaves passing.

He isn't providing anything useful to the midfield or team. I've been consistent with this since the 2nd half of his first season with us. He had 1 good half a season for United and has been mediocre ever since. There's a reason Chelsea got rid of him.
 
We're definitely at least one player short, particularly since we didn't get a 10 either. One injury means we need Matic to miraculously reverse his steep decline or Fred to show a lot more than he has so far.

Silver lining is that Gomes should get some opportunities.
 
Midfield isn't that bad...what's been bad and makes it looks worse is the functionality of midfield and their purpose for the greater good of the team.

Kante and Drinkwater won the PL. That's a good midfield...but their functionality and purpose as it related to how the team played was fantastic and extremely effective. It wasn't all nice and pretty, but one thing is for certain...if Pogba was in the midfield, it wouldn't have worked at all.
 
Devil may care said:
Yes, it's lacking in quality and depth, Pereira isn't even a CM, he sucks when played deeper, he's better in the hole or wide right. The rest of the midifeld only has one actual top player in it.

Pogba - Undoubtely class when his mind is on it, but also petulant and doesn't want to be here, can't play in a 2 which is where Ole is playing him.

McTominay - Decent player but getting massively overhyped as fanboys tend to do with an academy player that shows any spark of promise, would be a squad player if our other options weren't so crap.

Fred - Erratic on the ball, inconsistent, has no defined role, can't really be trusted.

Matic - He's absolutely finished, walking rigor mortis.
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:lol:
 
Ikon said:
Can we still sign players from Europe on loan..?
In my opinion, that would be great business, a couple of experienced players, still with gas in the tank like Marchesio or Matuidi, just to get us through this season.
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You can sign unattached players at any time. But it makes far too much sense - won't happen.
 
The Boy said:
Good post - standing up to the tidal wave of negativity, If I could like I would!
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No 10 is obviously the problem position there

Sanchez - enough said
Mata - past it
Lingard - not good enough
Gomes - The hope
 
In Rainbows said:
I'm not sure how to break it down to you, but Matic isn't close to the passer Scholes, Carrick, or Pirlo were. And in the case of Carrick, isn't as good in his defensive positioning. I've never made the argument that just because you're slow means you can't play for United. In the case of Matic, I thought it goes without saying that his lack of speed ruins anything positive he can provide. Not good enough defensively through positioning, and his pace ruins his ability to track back and help out the defense. So that leaves passing.

He isn't providing anything useful to the midfield or team. I've been consistent with this since the 2nd half of his first season with us. He had 1 good half a season for United and has been mediocre ever since. There's a reason Chelsea got rid of him.
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Not necessarily disagreeing with any of this. I just don't buy into the he's physically finished argument. When he performed well for us, he was still slow. His positioning has always been a concern. I actually think he's best with the ball, not at defending. He's also absolutely shocking in the air.

What I'm saying is that if he gets his act together, he can play as well for us as he did that first half of a season. Overall, I would much like an upgrade, but I'm a little tired when posters go on about how they think you are physically done at 29. That's just not true unless in some rare cases, or ruined by injuries.
 
Negative Red said:
Every season we have a league campaign and a few cup games. If we want to win a few of the cup games, i.e Europa League for Champions League qualification, it would probably be in Uniteds best interest to play Pogba. We desperately needed more quality in midfield. Be prepared to be shocked.
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But if we are playing Gomes etc in the cups then how many games can Paul even play?
It'll be one game a week until February!
 
Because Matic is so useless is the reason why our attackers are so poor too. The midfield cannot support our attack because Matic is so slow he is playing as a third CB most of the time. He cannot tackle or stop any attack. For a tall guy he is useless in heading too. He is taller than Fellaini I think but has not even half his ability in heading the ball.
Our midfield is pathetic to be sure. Apart from Pogba there is not even one player who will get into any top 8 or 9 teams.
 
Might sound a bit odd to say, but what impact will Maguire have on the functioning of our midfield? With Smalling at the back, if Lindelof wasn't playing we had a back line completely incapable of playing out from the back.

Maguire is known for his ability to bring the ball out of defence, and Lindelof is also a good passer. Will this allow our midfield to play higher up the pitch to support our attack and have a greater influence on our play? Surely the likes of Fred will have less calamitous moments not having to collect the ball deep, and Pogba not having to drop back to almost his own 18 yard line to kickstart attacks can only be a positive.

Surely Pogba and the likes of Mata, Fred, Lingard or whoever will be playing central can only benefit from Lindelof and Maguire's ability to distribute quality ball into attacking areas, leaving the likes of Matic to focus solely on protecting the back line. I hope Matic has a better season, in fairness it can't be any worse than last season. But being 30, he came off the back of a Wolrd Cup campaign with a bad injury, missed pre season completely and looked off the pace for the entire season. Here's hoping that was a major factor and he can find some form.

His qualities are defending the space behind him, cutting off passing lanes, is very good in the air and when he's playing well is positionally good too. These aren't qualities that should decline with age, so fingers crossed he can regain some form.

Have high hopes for Fred and McTominay, but I'm not deluded into thinking they will make waves this season, but hopefully both can be effective and bring an extra level than they showed last season with some added experience.

Pogba needs to be given a free licence to use his ability to affect the game. Shackeling him is just a waste of his talent. Yes he should still work defensively, yes we should require 100% commitment, but we need to play him in a way that maximises his ability to influence the game. That has to come first, or else why bother playing him?

Less doom and gloom, and let's focus on the positives. It has to depend on how we approach games. The sum of the parts has to be greater as a whole than the individual pieces. Playing games on the front foot with a higher tempo, with positive play full of intent and energy has to be the goal for this season. Fix that, and we've already come a long way, regardless of signings and quality of player. Fix our style of play, give the team some identity and purpose should one of our main goals this season, along with results of course.
 
I don't think Fred was THAT bad last year, reminded me a bit of Lindelof where he didn't play that much, but when he did, he was generally OK.

Hopefully this year he will go the same way.
 
If we are going to play 4-2-3-1 and the 2 in front of defenders are pogba and mcT we will have quite a formidable pair there in my view who can do it all, physically and footballing wise. Add in Maguire and AWB who make the defence far more solid. Maguire and Lindelof comfortable bringing the ball out starting attacks further up the pitch. If we sack off 3 in midfield I can understand why no midfield signing. If we do play 3 in the middle then I think we will struggle over the season
 
And today - Garner and Levitt are performing superbly for the U21 - give these lads 12-18 months and we can have a cracking team even without a lot of new signings. Garner can't be far away from the first team
 
Agree it’s not as bad as it’s made out to be.

I hate comparing to other sides, particularly the scousers, but Liverpools midfield is a fantastic example of what can be achieved by working hard.

Henderson and Milner...
 
If we want to get the best out of Fred then we have to play him further forward. He is a typical Brasilian style player. He is going to lose possession and the further up the pitch he does it the better. He can shoot from distance too and his ball skills are not bad at all. Play him often and that would give him more confidence.
 
I have a offensive attacking minded philosophy. So i would start with two cf.

And in crisis. This could be young starting line up.

De Gea + Young/Darmian - Lindelof - Maguire - Shaw + Bissaka - McTom - Gomes - James/Martial + Greenwood/Martial - Rashford

If United withouth Pogba. Gomes as a nr.8 can be a option. Yeah i am bit worry for United cm. Its harder to take the ball from Gomes than Perreira. Gomes is alot quicker/acceleration. So i would consider Gomes as a nr.8 option.
 
Foxbatt said:
Carrick, Fletcher, Ando and Park were better than anyone we have right now bar Pogba.
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Ando and Park better? When they were playing, everyone was saying how they were not good, etc... how time flies and changes the perception of everyone!

McT has shown progress during preseason and during some of the CL games last year. I am convinced he is going to succeed to complement Pogba. We need another source of creativity, if it's not Mata or Sanchez (yes, I know...) then it has to come from someone. Maybe Fred, Gomes or whoever who can play such a role.
 
What about 4 4 2 back four Lindelof Shaw McGuire Wanb and front two Rash Martial, but starting Matic Mctom Fred and Pogba all at the same time, Matic Mctom as two cdms, Fred cm and Pogba roaming cm/cam? Let Wan Bissaka and Shaw help out going forward as needed counting on Matic and
Mctom to help center backs when full backs go forward ? Any issues with this ?
 
Pogba - McT as a pivot with Gomez at no.10 is the dream by the end of the season.

Defenders will need to sweep up any potential counter attacks and push up high though for that to be balanced.
 
Rossa said:
I think Fred can be creative. McTominay doesn't seem too bad either if given the chance. He seems a good passer and improved overall. My biggest concern is Matic. If he replicates his first season form for us, we have a great player. If he plays like he did last season and against Inter, we will struggle big time.
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Unless Garner saves us with the inevitable chance he will get
 
Gandalf Greyhame said:
Our starting CMs (Pogba, McSauce) can be world class and very good on their days respectively, but both have a low bar when things are not going well. Their back ups however, have lower highs and disastrous lows.

If one of Pogba/McT is rested, we're always one brainfart under pressure away from Matic/Fred losing the ball to a high press which usually ends in a goalscoring chance. Fred never seems composed on the ball and Matic cannot track back. Pereira is a feisty one going forward, but he's not really shown that he has it in him defensively.

Over the course of a season, we'll lose more games because of the midfield than win due to their contributions. It's easy to press us, it's easy to outnumber us, it's easy to outrun us and it's easy to pass circles around us as even Inter have shown.

We're walking on a thin line with no quality depth, our midfield is indeed an absolute mess in terms of defensive abilities, keeping the ball moving or resisting press.
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Nothing else to be said in this thread. An injury to pogba will be the end of our season
 
To me it looks like we're going for a 4312 / 433. Pogba - Matic - McTominay seems set to be the ideal starting midfield with Fred, Pereira and Garner playing king of the hill. The ceiling isn't too high and it can be extremely fragile on poor days. We can hope a good run of games and results will create momentum and spirit. For me it's not about the names on the teamsheet it's about our players playing for each other, cohesion and a desire to get the results.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Bad is a wrong word. Its just imbalanced. The starting midfield has just 1 creative player. Unless we promote, the imbalance can't be addressed. Hopefully we will finally see the real Fred this season. Then push Pogba to 10. I hope McTominay is gifted the starting spot he deserves
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We saw the "real" Fred last year. An average player who is no better than Pereira and cost us 52m.
 
Degea, Shaw, Lindelof, McGuire, Wan bissaka , Mctominay, Fred, Pogba, Gomes as cam, Rashford and Martial. My best 11.
4 4 2 and if struggling to score switch to 4 3 3 bring in Greenwood for Gomes.
 
We should always compare with where we aspire to be. And quite frankly it’s miles behind City, Liverpool and arguably weaker than Chelsea, Tottenham...even Leicester and Wolves

Our current midfield either haven’t shown enough in previous seasons to suggest they’re the answer (Fred) haven’t really had too much exposure to the league (McTominay and Pereira) useless (Matic) too slow and doesn’t tackle (Mata)

It’s far too weak and a huge gamble.

Also compare that to previous Utd teams. With the likes of Robbo, Ince, Keane, Butt, Scholes, Carrick.

Even Fletch, Hargreaves would walk into this team
 
As long as we stick to a double pivot, our midfield is fine.
 
The thing is, both the manager and ourselves have been saying all the time that this isn't a quick fix. So why this summer have we expected things to be fixed quickly?

I get the midfield is a concern, as well as the attack. But what the fans seem to want is just unrealistic, and borderline foolish.

If you need to rebuild, you change a few things, then see where you're at, change again in the next window, rinse and repeat. For all you know, the improved defence could give those in front of it more confidence to go forward. Having a competent right back could add that extra dimension to our attack we've lacked. The kids who are knocking on the door could be a big hit. The improved fitness could have a massive impact on that lethargic attack. But we don't know until they're played.

If the attack/midfield still looks an issue by January/next summer, you readdress, and you spend then.
 
Pogba is as good a creative midfielder as you'll find anywhere.

McTominay is near the top of hardworking, mobile defensive midfielders in the League.

We're fine with our first choice.

Matic isn't fit enough to play every match, but he won't. Fred fails to impose himself on games, but has at least some quality in his own right. An upgrade or two would have been nice, but it's not the end of the world.

In a 4231, you could argue we might need a #10, but it's clearly not how Ole sees it in his new high-press world. Lingard will be that man.

Pogba, McTominay and Lingard in the middle isn't far off Wijnaldum, Fabinho and Henderson.

The biggest difference with Liverpool is in the goal-scoring consistency of the forwards to take advantage of the hard work/pressing of the players behind them.
 
Tango80 said:
The thing is, both the manager and ourselves have been saying all the time that this isn't a quick fix. So why this summer have we expected things to be fixed quickly?

I get the midfield is a concern, as well as the attack. But what the fans seem to want is just unrealistic, and borderline foolish.

If you need to rebuild, you change a few things, then see where you're at, change again in the next window, rinse and repeat. For all you know, the improved defence could give those in front of it more confidence to go forward. Having a competent right back could add that extra dimension to our attack we've lacked. The kids who are knocking on the door could be a big hit. But we don't know until they're played.

If the attack/midfield still looks an issue by January/next summer, you readdress, and you spend then.
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Agreed.

Maguire being comfortable in carrying the ball into midfield also allows someone like Fred to receive the ball further up field, where his lapses in concentration are less likely to result in a goal scoring opportunity.

Some of his (and Ander's) mistakes came from dropping deep to collect poor passes from defence.
 
I think our negativity towards our midfield is getting abit out of hand, for example, i wouldnt say Arsenal, chelsea or even liverpool and spurs are better currently. Just played on a different tactical idea.
Now, in terms of personel, if we stick to the two holders/ 8's then pogba, scott, matic, fred os a pretty solid 4 to choose from, add to this the potential of Garner, Fosu (after recorvery) and id say thats easy top 4 material when you take into consideration the depth our rivals have there.

The new tactical strategy being implemented is also of unknown quality, and i think alot of people are judging before we have even started. For the first time in i cant remember, i am seeing a clear style of play from United, that will have the midfield acting completley different to what we have previously seen.
How could we possibly know how good our midfield is when we have yet to see even one competitive game with the new ideas, style and fitness being implemented.
 
It ultimately depends if you rate Fred. If you do, then we've got at least 1 decent player in reserve. If you don't rate Fred (like me) then you'll come to the same conclusion that we're pretty close to being utterly screwed. Matic is far too slow and simply doesnt track runners from midfield any more. While Fred forgets we aren't in training and gets dispossessed on a regular basis. As much of an issue our defence was last season is how much of an issue our midfield will be this season in my opinion. It's a very clear weakness.

Have to hope our youngsters can make the step up as I have very little faith in Matic and Fred. While Pereira tries he didn't show too much quality last season, big step up from him required. He'll be 24 in January so no more excuses for him. All of my hopes are with Gomes and Garner.
 
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