Is Mbappe the best french player ever?

JPRouve said:
For France Trezeguet was a better goalscorer, you do realize that it is quantified? And are you genuinely going to argue that Zidane, Thuram, Desailly, Lizarazu and Vieira weren't better for France? Henry was for France in the same bracket than the likes of Trézéguet, Pirès, Makélélé, Djorkaeff or Wiltord good players but support players, none of them have a claim to be high in a ranking that concerns performances for the national team.

Henry was a great player but not for France.
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Actually have that sensation, Henry was a legend for Arsenal but never the same level of influence for France, of course he still has done great things. I remember a under 20 Toulon Tournament final between France and Portugal in 1997 coached by Domenech where their front 3 was Anelka/Henry/Trezeguet.

Fair to say him and Trezeguet a couple of months later already started having impact for Monaco under Tigana at Champions League level and in 98 they were already part of the French squad who won the WC.
 
Dannn411 said:
Respect your opinion but i'm taking Henry every time.
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Then you don't know your football. Platini is one of the greatest footballers of all time - period. Posts like yours just bring down the overall quality of discussion.
 
JPRouve said:
For France Trezeguet was a better goalscorer, you do realize that it is quantified? And are you genuinely going to argue that Zidane, Thuram, Desailly, Lizarazu and Vieira weren't better for France? Henry was for France in the same bracket than the likes of Trézéguet, Pirès, Makélélé, Djorkaeff or Wiltord good players but support players, none of them have a claim to be high in a ranking that concerns performances for the national team.

Henry was a great player but not for France.
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How can you say Trezeguet was the better goalscorer for France when by the only objective measure available for goalscoring for France - actual goals - Henry was better?

Of all the players mentioned, only Zidane was consistently greater for France. Henry is top 5 all time in caps for France and you say that is a support player? Wow.
 
Dannn411 said:
How can you say Trezeguet was the better goalscorer for France when by the only objective measure available for goalscoring for France - actual goals - Henry was better?

Of all the players mentioned, only Zidane was consistently greater for France. Henry is top 5 all time in caps for France and you say that is a support player? Wow.
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What is the better record 0.41 goals per game or 0.48 goals per game?
 
JPRouve said:
What is the better record 0.41 goals per game or 0.48 goals per game?
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Who scored more goals for France period?
Who score more goals in major tournaments?

Quick google shows me Fernando Peyroteo and Josef Bican have the highest goals per game ever. Are they the greatest goal scorers ever in your opinion?
 
Dannn411 said:
Who scored more goals for France period?
Who score more goals in major tournaments?

Quick google shows me Fernando Peyroteo and Josef Bican have the highest goals per game ever. Are they the greatest goal scorers ever in your opinion?
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Fair enough then Giroud is better than Henry.
 
Dannn411 said:
I don't have to be born in 1950 to know that Pele is a footballing legend but Messi is clearly better.
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I actually think you do have to - that’s why I always say ____ is the best I’ve seen, rather than ever. To say the latter is speculative, particularly when dealing with such a subjective topic, in my opinion.
 
Zehner said:
He also played a CL final already. He's definitely up there with the best French players and even if (and that's a big if) he is not.edging it already, it is by no means a ridiculous claim
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There is lot to be done to be up there with best french players. Starting by leaving France and playing in better leagues. It is that simple. Doesn't matter how good you are in leagues like France and Portugal, no disrespect to them, they are not major leagues. And as I mentioned, World Cup goals don't need to mean anythng.

harms said:
At the time I'm pretty sure that both were in consideration for France & Hungary's best players ever despite having marginally better players performing next to them in the same tournaments (notably Kopa & Puskás).
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Maybe, but that was with less players to choose from looking back. Now we have 100+ years to go back to.

Andrade said:
He's scored more goals in the World Cup final (by far the biggest game in football) than anyone else in history. His team was finished and he dragged them back into the game. This is not the day to be trying to belittle Mbappe or the French league, you just sound silly.
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What he did yesterday was great in terms of goals. I don't think anybody is saying different. But there was also two penalties. He was invisible for 75 minutes. So by judgeing his game it wasn't the best. But he scored 3 and that will show in history. However, you can't look at this game and say just because of that he is France best player ever when you consider other players like Platini and of course Zidane.

I still think that he needs to leave France and show his quality to be considered.

General_Elegancia said:
Sandor could be considered as the best player of the World Cup 1954( Puskas had an injury time), and he had a lot of chances for winning golden ball in that tournament( if the award was held). Fontaine with 13 goals could be easily top3 players of the 1958 tournament( below players like Kopa and Didi).
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In World Cup. Not overall. I think people need to understand that Mbappe needs to get out of France and play in better leagues to show his quality. Until then, it will always be maybe.
 
Watched him yesterday, i’m now convinced he’s brilliant and he’s going to win the next few balon dors. Speed, finishing, balance, agility, he has it all. And he doesn’t hide when his team needs him. His second volley of a goal against Argentina was absolute top class. Most players would try to bring it down with a touch but wow, he just confidently smashed that into the bottom corner
 
90 + 5min said:
In World Cup. Not overall. I think people need to understand that Mbappe needs to get out of France and play in better leagues to show his quality. Until then, it will always be maybe.
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Why people need to understand something that makes no logical sense? Mbappé has shown his quality against the best clubs, we are talking about a player that has an incredible CL record. The alternative would be that for some reason, Mbappé can do it against Real Madrid, Bayern, City, Barcelona, Juventus and basically everyone but the likes of Brighton or Recreativo de Huelva will prove to be his limit.
 
I don't know why people are bringing up Henry here. He's not in this discussion. Great PL player. Not a CL great or a great for the national team.

Zidane is the undisputed #1 for France, and Mbappe has to surpass him. Platini before my time and also because of his role with UEFA, his footballing career definitely gets ignored a bit, so hard to say what he was like.

But for me, Mbappe will end up competing with Cristiano Ronaldo by the time his career is done nIMO. Needs to stay injury free, but he's basically brazilian Ronaldo without the knee injuries. He's absolutely unplayable most of the time and an absolute force of nature. Mix of crazy pace, power and ability. Yes, playing in PSG is a waste of time but i do kind of respect it as he wants to win a CL title with a French side. Needs to keep it up, but he also has the physique that he'll keep the physical advantage for the next decade so long as he doesn't get big injuries, as Cristiano did.

People hate PSG so much that they forget what he did with Monaco, they forget what he did in the last World Cup. He has 12 world cup goals before age 24, he has 4 world cup final goals, he always steps up in big games for club and country... He's just an incredible player with an elite mentality.
 
adexkola said:
Zidane is the overrated player in this thread honestly.
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He turned up at international tournaments as much as anyone in my 30 years watching football. Gazza turned up for a couple and still gets lorded for getting no where near a final….only Zidane actually dominated them and took home the trophies. This Zidane is overrated nonsense he would be the standout player on the pitch when it mattered most of the time….not like passing it 5 yards 100 times in a game….but actually bossing it and making people laugh/smile with his technique. To watch at his best….no one really compares.
 
RedorDead21 said:
He turned up at international tournaments as much as anyone in my 30 years watching football. Gazza turned up for a couple and still gets lorded for getting no where near a final….only Zidane actually dominated them and took home the trophies. This Zidane is overrated nonsense he would be the standout player on the pitch when it mattered most of the time….not like passing it 5 yards 100 times in a game….but actually bossing it and making people laugh/smile with his technique. To watch at his best….no one really compares.
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I remember my Brazilian students in the early 2000s refusing to acknowledge his greatness, claiming the 1998 was fixed, etc. After 2006, and the absolute masterclass he put on again the Selecao, they were putting up their hands, admitting to just how great he was.
 
jem said:
I remember my Brazilian students in the early 2000s refusing to acknowledge his greatness, claiming the 1998 was fixed, etc. After 2006, and the absolute masterclass he put on again the Selecao, they were putting up their hands, admitting to just how great he was.
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That's the issue with Zidane and why I get the overrated claims. His best games are as good as any and are also memorable but they weren't the norm, yet it seems that people extend those exceptional games to the other hundreds of games where he was good or very good but not exceptional.
 
Zetrio2002 said:
Mbappe still does not dictate the flow of the game much. If I am not wrong, a commentator said that Mbappe had the fewest touches out of all players in the first 40 min of the game last night.
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He's a striker / forward. People shouldn't expect him to he another Messi / Maradona and appreciate him for what he is.
 
Raees said:
Then you don't know your football. Platini is one of the greatest footballers of all time - period. Posts like yours just bring down the overall quality of discussion.
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I mean, they're entitled to their opinion.

But the opinion itself is comparable to saying that Bergkamp is greater than Van Basten.

Which - regardless of the fact that Bergkamp was a brilliant player, easily world class and whatnot - would be a preposterous opinion.
 
90 + 5min said:
There is lot to be done to be up there with best french players. Starting by leaving France and playing in better leagues. It is that simple. Doesn't matter how good you are in leagues like France and Portugal, no disrespect to them, they are not major leagues. And as I mentioned, World Cup goals don't need to mean anythng.
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That makes zero sense. If I'm a world class surgeon working in a world class clinic and then decide to go to a province hospital just because I can, I'm still a world class surgeon.

In the UCL and at international tournaments, we see all the time that Mbappe is one of if not the best player in the world currently. The only French players who achieved that before are Platini and Zidane. So he's definitely up there with them.
 
Dannn411 said:
Neither was the guys you claim are better. Zidane and Desailly were there in 02 and 04. Trezeguet and Makelele and Thuram were there in 02 and 04 and 08. He has scored more goals in every major tournament than David Trezeguet. Good or bad. So for you to claim he wasn't a better goal scorer than Trezeguet is beyond laughable. Trezeguet is only remembered fondly because he scored the extra time winner in the Euro 2000 final. That's it.
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That's not my impression. I only saw the 98 world cup in replays, but I have a strong memory of Trezeguet providing the perfect assist for Blanc's liberating goal in their RO 16. I genuinely have no memory of any significant involvement by Henry in that tournament.

The difference in 02 is that Henry actually penalized them. He got himself a stupid red card very early in a vital game against Uruguay. I think Euro 00 and WC 06 are his only good tourney for France, and he is probably not in France's top 5 main players in either of these.
 
Too early and disrespectful of past players who have had wodnerful careers over a decade to label him that after 4/5years, but he is on his way. For me he has to move out of France and show his qualities in one of the top leagues though, he was a great youngster at Monaco but France/PSG he is in dominant teams.

I dont undertstand personally the likes of Trezeguet and Viera being mentioned as the greatest ever French players, good as they were. Thuram, ZIdane, Henry and Platini I think are the best I have seen
 
SATA said:
Watched him yesterday, i’m now convinced he’s brilliant and he’s going to win the next few balon dors. Speed, finishing, balance, agility, he has it all. And he doesn’t hide when his team needs him. His second volley of a goal against Argentina was absolute top class. Most players would try to bring it down with a touch but wow, he just confidently smashed that into the bottom corner
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It was an insane goal, especially given the context. I feel similarly to you in the sense that he really went up in my estimation after that game.
 
Castia said:
Arguing with PSG fans who think the French league is a top level league...fun times pal.

Anyways bottom line is he needs to move to be crowned the goat. You know it. I know it. And the world of football knows it.
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Moving to the PL would give a few more competitive league games per season, but depending on the club he joins, he might end up playing a couple less CL games. He's been going far in his career, reached the semis 3 times already, one of them he went to the final. And everyone considers CL top games to be the pinnacle of club football. If you compare Mbappé's career to Aguero's, I'm convinced he'd pick his career. Aguero was one of the PL's greatest, but he is not at all regarded in the same way outside of England given the failure to perform for City in the UCL...
 
Henry had never ever been considered as one of the best player for France. Come on, this forum's obsession with glorifying everything Henry did is making this place awful for any discussions on French players. Henry had only been good in PL games, and that was it. He never did anything of note in important CL or international games, where legends are made. No one in France would ever rate Henry higher than Platini, that is just bonkers. When people rate the best player of their country, they tend to rate them with a much higher emphasis on what the player had done for their national team, not what they have accomplished in a foreign league.

Zidane is still the undisputed best French player ever, but Mbappe has the time and talent on his side. A lot will have to go right for Mbappe for him to surpass Zidane, but there is a chance of it happening.
 
jesperjaap said:
Too early and disrespectful of past players who have had wodnerful careers over a decade to label him that after 4/5years, but he is on his way. For me he has to move out of France and show his qualities in one of the top leagues though, he was a great youngster at Monaco but France/PSG he is in dominant teams.

I dont undertstand personally the likes of Trezeguet and Viera being mentioned as the greatest ever French players, good as they were. Thuram, ZIdane, Henry and Platini I think are the best I have seen
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No one has done that.
 
jesperjaap said:
I dont undertstand personally the likes of Trezeguet and Viera being mentioned as the greatest ever French players, good as they were. Thuram, ZIdane, Henry and Platini I think are the best I have seen
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Saying their international careers (with France) were probably as good as Henry's isn't the same as putting them alongside the very best. I think most here are saying Platini (1st) and Zidane(2nd) are the untouchables.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
I mean, they're entitled to their opinion.

But the opinion itself is comparable to saying that Bergkamp is greater than Van Basten.

Which - regardless of the fact that Bergkamp was a brilliant player, easily world class and whatnot - would be a preposterous opinion.
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If it is an informed opinion I don't mind - but this is just ludicrous. We are talking about a guy who was Maradona's rival... arguably a top 10 of all time for any position. You just need to watch them to see one is on a different planet.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
I mean, they're entitled to their opinion.

But the opinion itself is comparable to saying that Bergkamp is greater than Van Basten.

Which - regardless of the fact that Bergkamp was a brilliant player, easily world class and whatnot - would be a preposterous opinion.
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Well, we can argue that Van Basten, like Platini and Maradona, never did it in England... He probably wouldn't have managed a rainy Wednesday night at the Britannia Stadium...
 
adexkola said:
1. No he's not
2. Even if he was, your football resume consists of way more than "big games".
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Did Zidane shit in your coffee or something? :lol: No sane person who actually watched Zidane play can claim that he isn't one of the all time best big game players. So you are either like max 20 years old and didn't actually watch Zidane, or just have a strange agenda against him.

He's a midfielder who was the key player everywhere he played, has won all there was to win, dominated both a CL final and a World Cup final. He is undoubtedly one of the greatest footballers of all time. Not everything is measured by goals or assists, and hate to break it to ya, but the big games, big tournaments are absolutely what your football legacy is defined by. A player who racks up the goals against shit teams but never wins the biggest prizes or performs on the big occasions is not a great player and will not be remembered as anything more than a scorer against shit teams. The big games is what defines your legacy as a player.
 
bosnian_red said:
Did Zidane shit in your coffee or something? :lol: No sane person who actually watched Zidane play can claim that he isn't one of the all time best big game players. So you are either like max 20 years old and didn't actually watch Zidane, or just have a strange agenda against him.

He's a midfielder who was the key player everywhere he played, has won all there was to win, dominated both a CL final and a World Cup final. He is undoubtedly one of the greatest footballers of all time. Not everything is measured by goals or assists, and hate to break it to ya, but the big games, big tournaments are absolutely what your football legacy is defined by. A player who racks up the goals against shit teams but never wins the biggest prizes or performs on the big occasions is not a great player and will not be remembered as anything more than a scorer against shit teams. The big games is what defines your legacy as a player.
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He didn't win a single league title in France...
 
dasty said:
Henry had never ever been considered as one of the best player for France. Come on, this forum's obsession with glorifying everything Henry did is making this place awful for any discussions on French players. Henry had only been good in PL games, and that was it. He never did anything of note in important CL or international games, where legends are made. No one in France would ever rate Henry higher than Platini, that is just bonkers. When people rate the best player of their country, they tend to rate them with a much higher emphasis on what the player had done for their national team, not what they have accomplished in a foreign league.

Zidane is still the undisputed best French player ever, but Mbappe has the time and talent on his side. A lot will have to go right for Mbappe for him to surpass Zidane, but there is a chance of it happening.
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This forum makes the Premier League the most important prize and will glorify any achievement there and write off World Cup or Champions League achievements ffs. The Prem is undoubtedly the best and most difficult domestic league to win. But in terms of legacy, it's not close to doing anything on the world stage or in the Champions League.
 
Henry's International career was underwhelming, the only thing I remember of him on the international stage is that handball against Ireland.
 
bosnian_red said:
Overrated player I guess...
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Yup. :lol:

But seriously, Zidane has not actually won much. Personally I penalize him when it comes to comparing him with other all time greats especially since he has played for extremely good teams full of talent.
 
bosnian_red said:
Arguably the best big game player of all time is overrated. Right.
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I actually think that's the reason he's slightly overrated. He performed well on the big stage, but he wasn't consistent enough on a regular basis. Messi and Ronaldo's consistent effectiveness is what led their teams to dominate club football, both domestically and in Europe.

He's not the type of player that simply having him guarantees victories in most games, that's something to be considered.
 
tjb said:
I actually think that's the reason he's slightly overrated. He performed well on the big stage, but he wasn't consistent enough on a regular basis. Messi and Ronaldo's consistent effectiveness is what led their teams to dominate club football, both domestically and in Europe.

He's not the type of player that simply having him guarantees victories in most games, that's something to be considered.
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That's fine, but nobody is really comparing Zidane with Ronaldo and Messi who are compared with Pele and Maradona. Nobody else is in that group.

For the best French player ever, it's Zidane. Henry did pretty much nothing in the Champions League or for the National team, while Zidane rose to the occasion there. Sure, he may not have stood out every single game, but I don't think that takes much away? It's harder to stand out every week if you aren't a goalscorer. The fact that when the biggest games came around, he would produce master classes that few players in history are capable of, would produce the mesmerizing moments in the CL and the World Cup, make him one of the greatest players ever. You can win the league title every year for 10 years by just being perfect against lesser teams, but if you don't do anything in the CL or World Cup/Euros, you will not be remembered as an all time footballing great. You'll be remembered as a great in that league, but that's it.
 
bosnian_red said:
Did Zidane shit in your coffee or something? :lol: No sane person who actually watched Zidane play can claim that he isn't one of the all time best big game players. So you are either like max 20 years old and didn't actually watch Zidane, or just have a strange agenda against him.

He's a midfielder who was the key player everywhere he played, has won all there was to win, dominated both a CL final and a World Cup final. He is undoubtedly one of the greatest footballers of all time. Not everything is measured by goals or assists, and hate to break it to ya, but the big games, big tournaments are absolutely what your football legacy is defined by. A player who racks up the goals against shit teams but never wins the biggest prizes or performs on the big occasions is not a great player and will not be remembered as anything more than a scorer against shit teams. The big games is what defines your legacy as a player.
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I don't think he is the best big game player of all time. It's not arguable. List his "big games" against those of his peers. And in comparison to his peers, his base level was actually mediocre.
 
JPRouve said:
Yup. :lol:

But seriously, Zidane has not actually won much. Personally I penalize him when it comes to comparing him with other all time greats especially since he has played for extremely good teams full of talent.
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The leagues he played in weren't as easy back then. He played in Serie A when it was the toughest and went to la Liga as it was becoming the strongest. Juventus won the title only once in the 10 years prior to Zidane arrival. And they won 2 in his first 2 seasons.
 
Pintu said:
The leagues he played in weren't as easy back then. He played in Serie A when it was the toughest and went to la Liga as it was becoming the strongest. Juventus won the title only once in the 10 years prior to Zidane arrival. And they won 2 in his first 2 seasons.
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I get that but these are excuses. During his last years with Juventus he was outplayed by Nedved and Lazio didn't have a team that was particularly better, Bordeaux had a very good team and of course Real Madrid did too. Keep in mind that I totally accept the diea that I may be slighly unfair but if we put Zidane in that undisputable category then we have to explain why more often than not he wasn't the best performer in the league he was playing.

In my opinion Zidane was great and overrated at the same time because people easily overlook the fact that he wasn't the undisputed best during his time. He wasn't clearly better than Figo and he wasn't clearly better than Nedved.
 
adexkola said:
I don't think he is the best big game player of all time. It's not arguable. List his "big games" against those of his peers.
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It is definitely arguable, considering most people would consider him as just that (especially those who actually watched him....).

List big games? Over a 20 year career? Take your pick from the 98 world cup final, multiple games from euro 2000 or 2006 World Cup, big games in euro 2004, multiple CL knockout games, one of the greatest CL final goals of all time as he won it in 2001 (?). Needing to ask this question is just ignoring what was in front of you, if you actually watched him.

All that's left of people's memories of a player are these big game masterclasses. Nobody will remember a great performance in a random league game, hell, even a league game between Barca and Real Madrid gets faded away in time and all that will matter from a players legacy is the big matchups in knockout rounds of the biggest tournaments. And there are few throughout history who can matchup with him when it comes to those games.
 
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