Is LVG the best coach at developing youth players in recent times?

Rozay

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Off the top of my head, I can't think of many better at the top end of football at least.

Fergie sort of lived off the class of 92 for much of the rest of his career I reckon. You could argue the talent wasn't there, but he'd generally play senior players out of position than just give the next left-back a go. The infamous Blackburn game is an example of this.

Van Gaal is not just doing this now, in terms of playing 17, 18, 19 year olds. He's been playing 16 and 17 year olds in Champions League finals since his Ajax days if he felt they were up to it. Also, looking back at his young players at Ajax, Barcelona, Bayern and now United - I can't think of another coach who has not just taken a chance on as many young players, but gotten as high a reward from it in terms f the quality of player he has had a hand in.

Other than perhaps if Giggs was in charge (judging by his team selection in his 4 game spell), I can't thin of any other potential United managers who would have seen the likes of Blackett, McNair, CBJ, Varela, Pereira, Lingard, Riley, Love, Rashford all start first team games, with the likes of Poole, Weir, Axel, Henderson all involved on the bench too.

The great thing too, is the majority of that lot have not let him, or themselves down either. To think that the media (who some may know that I strongly despise) ran a whole 'LVG doesn't care about youth' theme because he loaned Adnan and Wilson out looks even more ridiculous. No other manager would have trusted them as much.
 
Here I'm not sure he takes credit for 'development', as opposed to using what's already there and developed. That said I do think his record over his managerial career for development of young players is impressive which is why if he steps down from the hot seat this summer (please God) I'd be up for him taking some kind of technical director of the academy role, maybe in a part-time advisory capacity.
 
Really? How has he developed them? Surely your post should be hasn't he been great at dealing with your tiny squad by then being forced to call up your young players?

Not sure how on earth you can credit him with developing them when his hand was forced by your tiny squad / injuries....
 
The question is whether it will serve any purpose if Mourinho is going to come in and disregard all of them anyway. Now I'm not saying we are stocked with top class young players, but it would be great if the next manager can find a balance between continuing with kids getting chances, and raising the standards of the team.
 
The kids are being played out of absolute necessity. If our first team were fit they wouldn't get a look in. We were still trying to spend big in the summer to improve our first team with quality and experience.

What you are seeing now is very much plans b through to z.
 
Coxy said:
Really? How has he developed them? Surely your post should be hasn't he been great at dealing with your tiny squad by then being forced to call up your young players?

Not sure how on earth you can credit him with developing them when his hand was forced by your tiny squad / injuries....
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Not sure how on earth you write that and not realize he chose his (small) squad.
 
Coxy said:
Really? How has he developed them? Surely your post should be hasn't he been great at dealing with your tiny squad by then being forced to call up your young players?

Not sure how on earth you can credit him with developing them when his hand was forced by your tiny squad / injuries....
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It's not 'your' tiny squad, it's 'his' tiny squad. He is the person who trimmed the squad to this extent, so it is ridiculous to say he has been forced to play kids. It was his decision to get rid of the fringe players he could be using instead if he didn't trust the kids as you are implying.
 
Rozay said:
Other than perhaps if Giggs was in charge (judging by his team selection in his 4 game spell), I can't thin of any other potential United managers who would have seen the likes of Blackett, McNair, CBJ, Varela, Pereira, Lingard, Riley, Love, Rashford all start first team games, with the likes of Poole, Weir, Axel, Henderson all involved on the bench too.
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I think injurys probably played as big a part as philosophy in many of thise decisions
 
rpitchfo said:
The kids are being played out of absolute necessity. If our first team were fit they wouldn't get a look in. We were still trying to spend big in the summer to improve our first team with quality and experience.

What you are seeing now is very much plans b through to z.
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Plan B usually does have to be implemented. Not to the extent of this current injury mess which is downright insane, but LVG knew that when injuries hit he'd rely on youth rather than big names who can't get in.
 
rpitchfo said:
The kids are being played out of absolute necessity. If our first team were fit they wouldn't get a look in. We were still trying to spend big in the summer to improve our first team with quality and experience.

What you are seeing now is very much plans b through to z.
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That isn't true. I've seen kids get games and been surprised that a more senior player wasn't played out of position. Obviously he didn't intend for them to be starters, but he obviously always intended for them to play as cover in the event of injuries, which is happening.
 
Pochettino seems to be doing a pretty good job developing quite a large crop of young players. I know a lot of them were already there before he joined, but he seems to be doing a great job of aiding their development from young players to regular first team players. Kane could have quite easily dropped off after last year but he seems to have been managed well. Also isn't afraid to discipline either which I like.. Doesn't stand for anyone thinking their bigger than the club.. I'm thinking of Townsend in particular and how quickly he shipped him out after his spat.

Almost fergie like..
 
I don't understand why he didn't want to spread his wings after he retired. You've been at the same club for your entire career, surely when you retire and you move onto a career as a coach/manager then for no other reason than your personal development you want to get out there and see the world and experience what else you can learn. Learn Italian and go and spend a season working over there, or brush up on some basic German and experience the Bundesliga. Even staying at home going and learning the culture at different clubs and all that.

The fact that he didn't I think speaks of a lack of ambition and, more worryingly, a lack of wanting to do anything to help further his career and to be a better manager.
 
If by best at developing youth you mean playing them out of necessity when there's a lack of players with the squad he's left depleted, or picking obscure young players at random to rescue games in the hope he looks like a mad genius then yeah sure.
 
He has the best eyes to spot potential but our juices were already promising 18 months ago, though he is one of the best at developing them.
 
DrunkenBeaver said:
I don't understand why he didn't want to spread his wings after he retired. You've been at the same club for your entire career, surely when you retire and you move onto a career as a coach/manager then for no other reason than your personal development you want to get out there and see the world and experience what else you can learn. Learn Italian and go and spend a season working over there, or brush up on some basic German and experience the Bundesliga. Even staying at home going and learning the culture at different clubs and all that.

The fact that he didn't I think speaks of a lack of ambition and, more worryingly, a lack of wanting to do anything to help further his career and to be a better manager.
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I see why they call you Drunken Beaver
 
It's not as impressive when our first choice don't play any better.
 
It's been a consistent theme for him -- a squad of roughly around 23 players, supplemented by talented youth. He had previously not coached in the EPL before, and the schedule is notoriously thick here, so he could have amended that but didn't.

The lack of freedom he gives players gives young players something to hold on to -- they are told exactly what they can and cannot do and what to expect from the other players. Some older players with a set way of thinking find it difficult to discard what they have learned or maybe what made them good in the first place -- but young players thrive on the exact orders.
 
JPRouve said:
He has the best eyes to spot potential but our juices were already promising 18 months ago, though he is one of the best at developing them.
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The juice was obviously promising. Let's not be ridiculous, nobody develops untalented or unpromising young players into first team regulars. Obviously they knew how to play football before the current manager joined, but they were academy players. Most of the ones he's played were barely U21s, and many were not touted as future first-team stars either.
 
It's only a yes if some of these players are still here in 3-4 years.
 
ShakeUnBake said:
It's been a consistent theme for him -- a squad of roughly around 23 players, supplemented by talented youth. He had previously not coached in the EPL before, and the schedule is notoriously thick here, so he could have amended that but didn't.

The lack of freedom he gives players gives young players something to hold on to -- they are told exactly what they can and cannot do and what to expect from the other players. Some older players with a set way of thinking find it difficult to discard what they have learned or maybe what made them good in the first place -- but young players thrive on the exact orders.
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Very good point.
 
Rozay said:
The juice was obviously promising. Let's not be ridiculous, nobody develops untalented or unpromising young players into first team regulars. Obviously they knew how to play football before the current manager joined, but they were academy players. Most of the ones he's played were barely U21s, and many were not touted as future first-team stars either.
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Yeah, and their coaches deserve to be praised, if you want to add LVG to the list, fair enough, but we shouldn't ignore who is training them every day.
 
The best coach at giving them random injury induced game time sure.

I'll credit him with developing CBJ and giving substantial game time to Lingard but that's it really. Not sure how you could claim he's developed half of the listed players.

He goes straight back to senior players for 90 minutes once they're fit. Wouldn't say he's giving game time based on U21 performance or rotated youth in to rest senior players.
 
Smores said:
The best coach at giving them random injury induced game time sure.

I'll credit him with developing CBJ and giving substantial game time to Lingard but that's it really. Not sure how you could claim he's developed half of the listed players.

He goes straight back to senior players for 90 minutes once they're fit. Wouldn't say he's giving game time based on U21 performance or rotated youth in to rest senior players.
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Again, he trimmed his squad to allow them to get games, it wasn't all random.

And he'll play them if they impress. As you pointed out, Lingard was played ahead of a big money signing due to playing better. And going back to senior players is largely because they are better. Or do you propose Martial is a sub now?
 
JPRouve said:
Yeah, and their coaches deserve to be praised, if you want to add LVG to the list, fair enough, but we shouldn't ignore who is training them every day.
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I just think that's splitting hairs, or trying to hold out on saying anything positive about Van Gaal.

Youth coaches teaching pros basics is one thing, but a first-team coach teaching them how to fit in at the top level tactically etc is another thing. And my main point anyway, is that most of these players wouldn't have a single first-team appearance under another coach, including Fergie.

Not to dwell, but Pogba would be halfway through his 5 year contract to us if Van Gaal were the manager back then. Of course, Fergie had many strengths, so not to compare them overall.
 
ShakeUnBake said:
The lack of freedom he gives players gives young players something to hold on to -- they are told exactly what they can and cannot do and what to expect from the other players. Some older players with a set way of thinking find it difficult to discard what they have learned or maybe what made them good in the first place -- but young players thrive on the exact orders.
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They need it. He likes them to think for themselves on the pitch, but he doesn't want them thinking about things more experienced players just know. So he gives them clear instructions as you mentioned. That's a lot to take in but if they stick to it there's no reason to panic and they play like they're much more experienced. They tend to play with confidence and calmness, not worrying about mistakes and sometimes even a bit too cocky.

Hiddink found that out when he took over the Dutch national team, he thought that if his young defence could be 3rd at a WC they didn't need much instruction from him, but the instructions were the reason why they managed to be 3rd. Hiddink relied on them knowing how to defend themselves, and they immediately messed up. It's not just young players, he also schooled Kuyt into a full back in the 5 weeks before the WC.
 
Rozay said:
I just think that's splitting hairs, or trying to hold out on saying anything positive about Van Gaal.
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What I said is positive, if you can't see it it's your problem.
 
Rozay said:
It's not 'your' tiny squad, it's 'his' tiny squad. He is the person who trimmed the squad to this extent, so it is ridiculous to say he has been forced to play kids. It was his decision to get rid of the fringe players he could be using instead if he didn't trust the kids as you are implying.
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And he said himself that he has absolutely no interest in bringing in average "squad players" when he has an academy that can provide them for free.
 
He didn't develop anyone, but he gave a lot of them chances, which is great, but I doubt that was his plan. In a perfect LVG world the 1st choice players would always play, usually regardless of form.

Basically his strategy is to play the first team as much as possible, to do that you can't really have a large squad, because back-ups don't get much playing time and they get frustrated. So the only logical option is to keep a small squad and call up some young players when senior players get injured, because young players are usually more patient and they are grateful for the time they play instead of being dissapointed of the times they don't, like the more established players.

What I think separates him from most of the managers and what I like about him is that he usually prefers a specialist instead of playing an experienced player out of position, so I guess this helps the youngsters get more games.
 
Rozay said:
Again, he trimmed his squad to allow them to get games, it wasn't all random.

And he'll play them if they impress. As you pointed out, Lingard was played ahead of a big money signing due to playing better. And going back to senior players is largely because they are better. Or do you propose Martial is a sub now?
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He trimmed the squad to allow specific youth players game time or just random ones he could call upon in times of injury? Most certainly the latter.

If we had sufficient backup in place we'd have picked up more points and this would have allowed us to play youth and rest key players like Martial during easier games. A measured approach.

Instead we're in the ludicrous situation of always playing our first eleven unless there's injuries, then the young lads will get a few games and because we drop points the senior players come straight back in.

Our young lads rely on the luck of injuries rather than impressing and being given game time in the standard manner.
 
it's good to see our young players getting games, but as pointed out, it's mostly through injuries. Then there's the fact that the abysmal Lingard (who isn't even young) gets more game time than any of the rest combined, our best prospect Pereira only gets on the pitch for 5 minutes if we're 3 goals up, the likes of Wilson and Adnan are fecked off on loan without really being given a chance, etc.

So yeah, he may be playing youngsters, which is certainly good, but he's also mismanaging our best ones.
 
Coxy said:
Really? How has he developed them? Surely your post should be hasn't he been great at dealing with your tiny squad by then being forced to call up your young players?

Not sure how on earth you can credit him with developing them when his hand was forced by your tiny squad / injuries....
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Interesting who you attribute the small squad too? Is part of development not working with the more experienced players?

I like the way the argument fluctuates on this forum, LVG is wank because he made our squad too thin, then when the youth players are used (for whatever reason) it can not have anything to do with LVG because he is wank and should get no credit. At the same time he has done nothing in nearly 2 years with us, so therefore he could not have influenced their development in those 2 years, so apparently they just develop themselves and the new coaches and philosophy are just ignored.
 
Probably. We can knock him on many things but he has given every under 21 and under 18 player a massive lift. It may cost him his job, and yes the injuries have increased the number of kids given a chance - but at the same time, we've had injury problems for a good few years. So this season is nothing new. The fact he went with a small squad has helped the kids, because they know that chances can come and that has meant they psychologically have to think ahead of their development. It used to be you were lucky, if you had 1 18 year old in the squad, from the youth teams. Now, we got ourselves an epidemic. We would be doing good things right now, if we hadn't played half the season like muppets. We all saw it. Create one chance and take that one chance! Mad tactics. So we could quite easily benefit as a result in the years to come. The youth teams more often then not, play the United way. These kids aren't mugs but if you are a kid right now at United? You must be buzzing.
 
I will add something we have been critical of the academy, the coaches and scouts, so in my opinion we should be praising them for selecting and developing those kids. Now if we want to praise Van gaal, we can say that in general he is great with young players and that it's great to have a manager who trust young players. There is no need to go overboard.
 
sun_tzu said:
I think injurys probably played as big a part as philosophy in many of thise decisions
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It's a deliberate strategy. Have a relatively small first team squad so that

A) those players all get plenty of games and so feel valued and trusted, even in bad form
B) When there are injuries, youth team players get a chance.

Its fair to criticise or disagree with the strategy but it's certainly not down to bad luck.

I personally think it's a fantastic approach and have really enjoyed watching these kids play as opposed to journeyman squad players.
 
Striker10 said:
Probably. We can knock him on many things but he has given every under 21 and under 18 player a massive lift. It may cost him his job, and yes the injuries have increased the number of kids given a chance - but at the same time, we've had injury problems for a good few years. So this season is nothing new. The fact he went with a small squad has helped the kids, because they know that chances can come and that has meant they psychologically have to think ahead of their development. It used to be you were lucky, if you had 1 18 year old in the squad, from the youth teams. Now, we got ourselves an epidemic. We would be doing good things right now, if we hadn't played half the season like muppets. We all saw it. Create one chance and take that one chance! Mad tactics. So we could quite easily benefit as a result in the years to come. The youth teams more often then not, play the United way. These kids aren't mugs but if you are a kid right now at United? You must be buzzing.
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That is spot on!

Think an earlier post made a great point in that he hasn't developed them per se but he has promoted them and this has been a hallmark of his teams throughout his career and he has to be given credit.

I'm not convinced at all if Mourinho had been in charge he would have promoted so many young players
 
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