Player who doesn't like to defend or get physical or can't jump won't do well as a CB.
Is Lisandro Martinez single-handedly making the case for [elite] short centre backs?
- Thread starter Fortitude
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As someone mentioned here though, how do you explain Kolo Toure?
You can't just blame Martinez for that match. The only reason he struggled in that game was because our pressing was not on point at that time of the season. We just started gelling as a team. If you give opponents space and time on the ball, any CB is going to struggle against tall players and quality long balls.
The last CB to win the ballon d’Or was around Lisandro’s height… Cannavaro.
Baresi and Passarella were small defenders by modern standards. In fact, during most of the 20th century, many CB's would be around 5'9-5'10. The biggest changes since were:
1) Inevitable human evolution - People are generally becoming taller. Gene pooling is more pronounced in sports.
2) The transition to the 4-3-3 and playing a single striker led to a gluttony of tall and strong strikers, capable of playing with limited support due to their athletic abilities (Drogba comes to mind)
So it's more just an evolution of the game rather than the case whereby you can't play CB if you're X height. If anything, the normalisation of false 9's has probably led to a renaissance of the 'smaller' CB and nowadays speed in a defence is a hot commodity, which is much more pronounced in smaller CB's.
1) Inevitable human evolution - People are generally becoming taller. Gene pooling is more pronounced in sports.
2) The transition to the 4-3-3 and playing a single striker led to a gluttony of tall and strong strikers, capable of playing with limited support due to their athletic abilities (Drogba comes to mind)
So it's more just an evolution of the game rather than the case whereby you can't play CB if you're X height. If anything, the normalisation of false 9's has probably led to a renaissance of the 'smaller' CB and nowadays speed in a defence is a hot commodity, which is much more pronounced in smaller CB's.
The thing about the criticism of Martinez was that it clearly was not true. Pundits were going for an easy angle.
First of all: defenders in the Eredivisie are taller on average than in PL.
Second: Licha was winning most challenges in the air in his first games, yet the criticism continued for a while.
His performances shut them down for a while, but the criticism will be back if he looses an important header that is decisive. Because some of these pundits are untruthful opportunists.
First of all: defenders in the Eredivisie are taller on average than in PL.
Second: Licha was winning most challenges in the air in his first games, yet the criticism continued for a while.
His performances shut them down for a while, but the criticism will be back if he looses an important header that is decisive. Because some of these pundits are untruthful opportunists.
Cannavaro was the trend setter in that department
I've met Azpi and he's at least 5'10".
Short for a CB but not munchkin levels like Martinez.
Martinez is the exception to the rule. Fantastic player and defender with a great attitude.My POTY so far Rashford’s great form notwithstanding.
Maybe if they decide to ban heading or something. I thought they were thinking about it a while ago.
Lisandro Martinez is more along the lines of Cannavaro and Baresi than the norm. He's a world class center back, just so composed on and off the ball, so aggressive, great leap etc. Centerbacks who lack the right physical attributes are obviously a weakness - but you can make up for it with the right aggression. Few players have it like Martinez does.
Perfect height to hide behind a shower curtain, for example.
Looks a really good player.
we had Kevin Moran back in the day, 5 ft 10 in, when teams played 2 up top with at least one big bruising centre forward. Kevin was as tough as anyone, fearless in the tackle, and in the air.
Back then there was a lot more ball in the air action and you'd not get away with a shorter centre back as much.
Martinez is an absolute outlier, but you do still need a certain number of players who can head it at set pieces. Casemiro helps massively on that level.
Moran was a warrior!
He worked incredibly well together with Timber last year in an Ajax defense that only gave away 4 goals in the first half of the season last year.
I think he is able to be one of the best defenders in Europe, and maybe he already is, but only if his manager(s) account for his height.
I think he is able to be one of the best defenders in Europe, and maybe he already is, but only if his manager(s) account for his height.
I wonder when he started playing in his current position? It would be very unusual for short kids to be picked in that position so I’d love to know which coach first saw his potential.
I know that wenn he first came to Ajax he was used as a midfielder, cause he had some defensive shortcommings. In the background he was training with Ten Hag on being better both in defense and with the ball on his feet. The season after that Martinez became a starting defender for us.
Of course he did, he talks in Jock
So ETH gets the credit? Nice!
If I was a kid watching the way he plays the game I think that Martinez would entice me into wanting to play centre half. He could inspire a new generation of vertically challenged to want to play the position where before they'd hav been steered towards fullback or DM instead
Puyol was pretty good.
He's very good but isn't he the same height as Cannavaro, Baresi, Mascherano, Cordoba (all 5'8 or 5'9). Two of those are in the list for best CB's of all time.
Never really doubted him, said the same in his player thread.
Pundits are often lazy with opinions which is why they're not managers.
I think there's no real winning attribute, just have good technique, passion/desire/hunger a good work ethics and be an intelligent player and you'll become a top player.
Pundits are often lazy with opinions which is why they're not managers.
I think there's no real winning attribute, just have good technique, passion/desire/hunger a good work ethics and be an intelligent player and you'll become a top player.
He also used Kevin Moran's age and height for CB as an excuse to get rid of him. And then brought in Mal Donaghy who was roughly the same age and also shorter.
Martinez reminds me of Mascherano moving to Cb for Barca. People thought it was mad. But it worked.
Martinez has extra qualities that people over look, he's got a great leap, he's a good reader of the game. He's quick, incredibly strong, likes the physical battles and is aggressive in the tackle. Add in his calmness and good passing on the ball and you've got a hell of a defender. Not many defenders of his height have all those attributes combined. So it probably won't become the norm.
If it does, we'll probably start seeing teams go back to 442 with 2 6ft plus battering ram strikers up top.
Player who doesn't like to defend or get physical or can't jump won't do well as a CB.
And yet we bought one. Lindelof
Licha’s height never concerned me. You always wonder if a new player will make it at OT but his height was never a real issue.
He's a product of the trend of building from the back. In any other era players like him would be occupying the midfield. Todays tactics dictate having playmakers at the back, but tactics evolve and all you'll need is a team achieving outsize success with some other formation/ player qualities for this trend to die out and be replaced by something newer.
Gary Medel is not bad either, might not be as good but cutting it quite fit in the Serie A for Bologna.
The 173 m Colombian center half Ivan Cordoba, made the argument a long time ago during a twelve year run on some excellent Inter sides.
I think that's the entire point though, everyone that whined about how short he was never even took into account how football is played in the modern game. Martinez by every metric at Ajax was an elite defender and ball player, he was just short. It was stupid to say he wouldn't succeed just because of that in a league where even Forrest and Brentford try to play more modern stuff.
I'm not blaming him for that game.
Hell, DDG was at fault for what, two of the goals?
The team was poor, but Brentford targeted Martinez, Tomas Frank even admitted this in the post match interview!
Thankfully it hasn't happened since, and Martinez has settled very nicely indeed.
Mascherano?
Aye, Cannavaro’s a great example, and Mascherano was shorter than both!
It might be rare but writing off a CB instantly based on height was beyond stupid, hopefully the pundits and fans aren’t so quick to jump to bullshit conclusions in future.
That, and i think for some reason he's also taken the spot of Maguire who seemingly (and i speak under correction here) hasn't been as harshly judged in the media as his performances warrant.
He wasn't an elite cb imo, he only played there becase of Busquets
And Dong being the next Batistuta.
Mascherano was a superb centre back imo but he was an even better DM. Cannavaro another obvious choice.