Is it time to settle to a 352?

Our midfield is overrun in this formation. Switch back to the 433 and get Mata back on the fecking pitch.
 
Take Herrera out and put Pogba in his place,and we"ll look excellent in a 3-5-2....Oh,and of course we have to drop Mikhitaryan as well!
 
El Jefe said:
352 will never work for us because our CBs aren't good enough to bring the ball out of defence. Either that or its Jose's tactics.

The RCB and LCB should be comfortable enough to come out of defence allowing space for the wing backs and midfielders to push forward. What we did was keep our 3 CBs flat just in front of our box meaning the full backs drop deeper. Chelsea smartly pressed our fullbacks in our half and this resulted in lost possession time and again in the second half.

Spurs play the back 3 superbly. Verthongen, Dier and Alderweireld, use of the ball and ability to drive beyond the half way line opens up all kind of space and allows for more options for the pass. Azpilicueta yesterday showed this aswell with his assist for the goal.
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Exactly we don’t have any ball playing defenders as good as those three,Spurs also have better wingbacks as well. This formation is a total waste of time unless you have the right players which we dont and haven’t done since LVG made a mess of trying to play it.

Under LVG and Jose we just end up with an extra defender and play a completely out dated version of the formation. Could try Blind there but he isn’t mobile enough and he would need too much protection.
 
Any changes of opinion on this with Lindelof growing in confidence and being the 'ball-playing CB' that pushes up into midfield?
 
Thought the 3-4-1-2 looked fantastic at the start of the match yesterday. Wish we had kept it for longer, Mourinho went defensive very early again with Martial being moved back to the wing and Lukaku struggled on his own after that change.

I still think a more conventional 3-5-2 is better due to the greater numbers in midfield but Lingard deserves to keep his place in the #10 position atm.
 
3-5-2, 3-4-1-2 or some variety of them is the way forward in my opinion.

Defence would have to be sorted out though, their positioning and distribution of workload was way off yesterday.
 
I still think it’s the way forward. I’d depending on who we buy in the summer would switch it to one Dm and then have a LAM(Pogba)and a RAM in a 3142. However if say we were to buy say Dybala/Ozil I’d switch it to the 3412 with him replacing Lingard.

Our defence does still need a bit of work as at times they were getting pulled about a bit yesterday and when Jose changed it to a more defensive set up we started to really crumble under pressure. Really comes down to who we buy as i’d say wing backs right and left if Shaw has no future and another midfielder is essential.
 
Hard to see this 3 at the back thing having a future given the panic stations at Watford and now Arsenal. But I could be wrong.
 
Rory 7 said:
Hard to see this 3 at the back thing having a future given the panic stations at Watford and now Arsenal. But I could be wrong.
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The panic came from when our forwards split up & stopped being in partnership; martial went more & more to the left & Lingard more & more deeper with him & Lukaku taking up the right hand side who ever was free.

That's what I saw at least - this meant we were unnecessarily overly defensive & lost our intent to attack. Our wingbacks became fullbacks & lost our shape/rigidity.

When we decide we want to put our backs against the wall; no matter what formation we do - we give the opposition the ability to control the game.

Start of Watford & Arsenal was clearly gppd both attacking & defensively - I think it's very unnecessary what we decide to do once we gain a comfortable lead.
 
We get dominated in midfield when we play Pogba and Matic as a two, with a no10 in front, if we get a CDM to sit next to Matic, and give Pogba the role behind the forwards, it could work.
 
I think we should pursue this too.

All we really need to add are a couple of wing backs and perhaps a star forward to play inside right/second striker long term. Much as I love Jesse and what he’s doing now, someone like Dybala playing in that channel, with Martial inside left would be frightening.
 
I want us to play it against City, because it clearly works offensively.

Although I fear getting it wrong against City. If City had half the space Arsenal had today, they've have peppered our goal even more.
 
We don't really need to "settle" on any 1 particular formation,I would rather have us playing a variety if formations depending on the opposition.Away from home,I really like the 3-5-2,because it sets us up perfectly to hit teams on the counter.But at home,I would like to see us play a more expansive 4-2-3-1,we don't need to play 3 at the back against Bournemouth or West brom,but we might have to stick to 3-5-2 against City.So it should be horses for courses,we shouldn't rigidly just stick to one formation....
 
Signing someone like Dier would give us so many options during a game.

He could start as part of a back three and then effortlessly move into a midfield three if the manager wanted to change the formation during a game.

Alternatively he could play as a hybrid, so he plays the most advanced of the centre backs and deepest of the midfielders at the same time.

Now I’m not advocating that we sign Dier, just somebody like him that could offer a seamless transition of formation without substitution.

Maybe Lindeloff could grow into that role?
 
Nikelesh Reddy said:
We don't really need to "settle" on any 1 particular formation,I would rather have us playing a variety if formations depending on the opposition.Away from home,I really like the 3-5-2,because it sets us up perfectly to hit teams on the counter.But at home,I would like to see us play a more expansive 4-2-3-1,we don't need to play 3 at the back against Bournemouth or West brom,but we might have to stick to 3-5-2 against City.So it should be horses for courses,we shouldn't rigidly just stick to one formation....
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I disagree - I don't think we will be good as we can be unless we atleast perfect a formation. Once we have done that; then we can change our formation or players depending on the opposite side. If we keep changing every 2 or 3 games we end up just being a good team who can play 2 or 3 formations all to just an above average level but nothing prominent.

I want United to be the masters of the 352 for the next couple of years as much as Barcelona were masters of the 433 or Bayern were the masters of the 451. If we find a formation & become masters at it - then we don't need to take sh*t from anyone & can play with a level of confidence that we are still yet to see.
 
I don't think we need to settle on any formation. But this one certainly has its uses. My main problem with this formation is that we're often overrun in midfield and our back 3 needs to sort their positioning out.
 
Garethw said:
Signing someone like Dier would give us so many options during a game.

He could start as part of a back three and then effortlessly move into a midfield three if the manager wanted to change the formation during a game.

Alternatively he could play as a hybrid, so he plays the most advanced of the centre backs and deepest of the midfielders at the same time.

Now I’m not advocating that we sign Dier, just somebody like him that could offer a seamless transition of formation without substitution.

Maybe Lindeloff could grow into that role?
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I do think Dier is perfect for it & all the rumours that had happened in the last transfer window I don't think just splurged out of nowhere. A DM/CB hybrid player is what works.
Though Lindelof has improved he has yet to play in the centre of defence & José seems to prefer playing a sweeper guarded by two agressive defenders - which is overly defensive; when we could play 2 stone wall defenders protecting a ball playing CB.

Top 3 for the role in no order - Dier, Lindelof & Blind. I would not sell the latter; only because its possible under a different manager that they also don't want a sweeper in the heart of 3 at the back & would want someone dictating play.
 
Gerald G said:
I don't think we need to settle on any formation. But this one certainly has its uses. My main problem with this formation is that we're often overrun in midfield and our back 3 needs to sort their positioning out.
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Its because we play with a sweeper - the gap between the centre of Midfield & the centre of defense is huge & unnecessary. What we need is a player who does the opposite of a sweeper - a player who plays in front of the defense & drops back in to the back 3 only when needed helping us to dictate play from deep.
 
Still not convinced by this formation, we are still getting swamped in midfield. I've yet to see us control a game against any decent opposition with 352. I think it's certainly an option against certain teams. But i don't think Mourinho will want to use it full time, certainly not with the current squad anyway.
 
No. I think its great that our players are adaptable to a number of formations, and that Jose is willing to chop and change accordingly.

What I would want Jose to also bring to the table is a diamond, which will still allow the front three to cause havoc on the counter, as we saw yesterday.

Something like

De Gea
Valencia Smalling Rojo Young
Herrera Matic Pogba
Lingard
Lukaku Martial

I would personally play this against City (Jose wont) with Fellaz coming in for Pogba. Reason is, we need to match up in midfield against them, or it'll be the Arsenal game all over again, and I very much doubt we'll be as fortunate as we were yesterday.
 
Bruno8 said:
3 5 2 is now the in thing but LvG was attacked senselessly for using the same. Hypocrites
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No. LVG was attacked for being responsible for us playing the most mind numbingly boring football imaginable.
 
Bruno8 said:
3 5 2 is now the in thing but LvG was attacked senselessly for using the same. Hypocrites
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Poor guy didn't get to finish what he started. Falcao, RVP, Rooney was a total different players compared to the players he had in second season which were much suited to 352. Anyway I'm glad Jose recognises the 352 is ingrained to the squad & I hope he stops messing around with 4321 - very out dated formation that marginalises some of our key players.
 
Yesterday reminded me so much of how we played under Van Gaal against Newcastle when we played a 352.

We always had a box of four on the counter, and it was a joy to watch.

Back then, it was Van Persie, Falcao, Rooney and Mata.

Yesterday, it was Martial, Lukaku, Pogba and Lingard.
 
Home&Away said:
I disagree - I don't think we will be good as we can be unless we atleast perfect a formation. Once we have done that; then we can change our formation or players depending on the opposite side. If we keep changing every 2 or 3 games we end up just being a good team who can play 2 or 3 formations all to just an above average level but nothing prominent.

I want United to be the masters of the 352 for the next couple of years as much as Barcelona were masters of the 433 or Bayern were the masters of the 451. If we find a formation & become masters at it - then we don't need to take sh*t from anyone & can play with a level of confidence that we are still yet to see.
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I think that Bayern were the masters of 4-5-1 under Hitzfield,but under Pep they would frequently change their formation even during a game.I have nothing against the 3-5-2,I just think that we need better personnel if we want to play this at home,when teams are happy to drop deep.We need a top class ball playing CB alongside Jones and Bailly,and we need a top class LWB,plus we might also need a top class attacking midfielder/10 behind the 2 strikers....But as if now,I think we"ll find it tough to break teams down at home with this formation,it will suit us fine when we play away against adventurous teams,but at home we"ll find it tough....
 
Home&Away said:
Poor guy didn't get to finish what he started. Falcao, RVP, Rooney was a total different players compared to the players he had in second season which were much suited to 352. Anyway I'm glad Jose recognises the 352 is ingrained to the squad & I hope he stops messing around with 4321 - very out dated formation that marginalises some of our key players.
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Haha 352 isn't some cutting edge modern invention, 3 at the back formations were being used 100 years ago. Look up the WM formation thats not a million miles away from the 343 used today.

Formations and their popularity go in cycles, 352 & 343 are in vogue right now because a few teams have had success with it. 3 at the back formations became widely used in the mid 90's as well after some teams had a lot of success Ajax one of them. A few years from now another formation will be all the rage after everyone gets used to playing against 352/343 again.
 
Bruno8 said:
3 5 2 is now the in thing but LvG was attacked senselessly for using the same. Hypocrites
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I think it was bad then and I think it is bad now. We've been struggling defensively with that setup managing only a clean sheet against a Kane-less Spurs and Swansea in the cup. I think our CBs function a lot better in a pairing setup. We see them to much all over the place, not covering their space correctly. The goals conceded against Chelsea and Arsenal were similar, a ball over the top straight into the middle of the box to an unmarked player.

West Ham were defending well and managing to create chances against City away with a back 4 and no real striker. Southampton, Bournemouth and Huddersfield were all close to getting results. I think with Pogba out its all the more reason to play with 4 at the back and more players in the middle but José is a lot smarter man than me and if he goes with the same formation it's probably the correct one.
 
Home&Away said:
The panic came from when our forwards split up & stopped being in partnership; martial went more & more to the left & Lingard more & more deeper with him & Lukaku taking up the right hand side who ever was free.

That's what I saw at least - this meant we were unnecessarily overly defensive & lost our intent to attack. Our wingbacks became fullbacks & lost our shape/rigidity.

When we decide we want to put our backs against the wall; no matter what formation we do - we give the opposition the ability to control the game.

Start of Watford & Arsenal was clearly gppd both attacking & defensively - I think it's very unnecessary what we decide to do once we gain a comfortable lead.
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Wouldn't it have been worse if we didn't do all that? Arsenal had switched to 4-2-3-1 and were likely to push both of their fullbacks forward since they needed to get a goal back and we would have been defending with equal numbers.

Our shape against them ended up being a lopsided 4-3-3, with Martial and Young on the left and Lindelof an auxiliary RB and Valencia pushing up onto Kolasinac, sort of like the defensive winger that Park used to play as. This had the added effect of suckering Kolasinac forward (Valencia was deeper on that side than Martial on the other) and allowing us to attack in behind him, which is where the third goal came from, with Pogba running into that channel.

Call me crazy but I think Martial on the wing provides more security than, for example, how we set up against them under Van Gaal at the Emirates in the 2014/15 season with Rooney and Di Maria up front. Theoretically, at least, it should work a lot better than a standard 3-4-1-2/3-5-2.
 
I absolutely hate us playing the 3-5-2 formation.

Against decent sides we'r constantly overrun in midfield,it invites pressure,to the point that the games against chelsea and arsenal were more or less our defence against there attack. We took our chances well on saturday,had a superb performance from degea and a fair slice of luck. It feels odd saying this after a 3-1 away win against a big team, but saturdays match was another example of why i dislike the formation so much. Credit to de gea and the attacking players imo...Not the formation.
 
The back three formation suits us perfectly, we have two wingers playing fullback in 4-2-3-1, so ideally they shouldn't find it much difficult to play as wingbacks. Martial and Rashford are not wingers and they can play as second strikers instead of being wasted as out and out wingers. Our only problem is the number 10 position, Lingard has scored goals but his link up play and passing is not up to notch, sure he can run around a bit and be a nuisance but we need more than that from our number 10.

But we definitely shouldn't employ it against City, in 3-5-2 there is a huge space behind the wingbacks and Arsenal used it attack us especially on our left hand side, Young was caught out so many times by Bellerin, Knockhaert ran him ragged in our match against Brighton.
 
stevoc said:
Haha 352 isn't some cutting edge modern invention, 3 at the back formations were being used 100 years ago. Look up the WM formation thats not a million miles away from the 343 used today.

Formations and their popularity go in cycles, 352 & 343 are in vogue right now because a few teams have had success with it. 3 at the back formations became widely used in the mid 90's as well after some teams had a lot of success Ajax one of them. A few years from now another formation will be all the rage after everyone gets used to playing against 352/343 again.
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That would be our favourite 4-4-2. History repeats itself everytime.
 
Nikelesh Reddy said:
We don't really need to "settle" on any 1 particular formation,I would rather have us playing a variety if formations depending on the opposition.Away from home,I really like the 3-5-2,because it sets us up perfectly to hit teams on the counter.But at home,I would like to see us play a more expansive 4-2-3-1,we don't need to play 3 at the back against Bournemouth or West brom,but we might have to stick to 3-5-2 against City.So it should be horses for courses,we shouldn't rigidly just stick to one formation....
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METOO. 352 for big games and 4231 for smaller clubs.
 
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