Yea, my bad.Rojo would be important in making this work, as it gives another defender capable of carrying the ball forward other than Bailly. Jones would sweep everything up from the center in this scenario.
But I'd put Rojo at CB and not CF...
Is it time to settle to a 352?
- Thread starter Home&Away
- Start date
I know the 'done thing' in this formation seems to be to have the central defender as the ball-player, but Mourinho seems to prefer it the other way. Off the top of my head every time we've played with three at the back he's used Smalling in the centre. Arguably our best pure defender, certainly our most dominant in the air and equally certainly our worst on the ball, he's trusted to sit in the middle and cover anything that does get through. The two flanking him are then the ones who are more of the ball-players, although none (except Blind who never seems to play there anymore and maybe Tuanzebe) are particularly good at that. Rojo is fairly good but nothing amazing, Bailly and Jones are decent but inconsistent. Lindelof has the reputation of being quite good, but obviously hasn't got to grips with the step up at all yet.
I've seen quite a few people in here saying that Young isn't good enough to play as a wingback in that formation. Personally, I feel it's the other side that is a larger issue. Valencia doesn't provide enough going forward for that formation. In a four man defence Young is probably the weaker one, but in a 3-5-2 where you really need your wingbacks to provide a significant threat going forward, he is better at that then Valencia.
Having Bailly - Smalling - Rojo as a back three, flanked by Valencia and Young and protected by Matic...it would make us incredibly difficult to break down in big matches. Of course, we already have the best defensive record in europe, so it's not like we are struggling in that sense.
I've seen quite a few people in here saying that Young isn't good enough to play as a wingback in that formation. Personally, I feel it's the other side that is a larger issue. Valencia doesn't provide enough going forward for that formation. In a four man defence Young is probably the weaker one, but in a 3-5-2 where you really need your wingbacks to provide a significant threat going forward, he is better at that then Valencia.
Having Bailly - Smalling - Rojo as a back three, flanked by Valencia and Young and protected by Matic...it would make us incredibly difficult to break down in big matches. Of course, we already have the best defensive record in europe, so it's not like we are struggling in that sense.
Juventus ( 2011-2016 ) mastered the 352 without a proper #10.
Do you guys think that Mourinho is planning to use Zlatan and mkhitaryan the way he uses Martial and rashford?
Mkhitaryan seems to be better later in the game when there is more space. So Mourinho might start Zlatan instead of mkhitaryan and when more space opens up during the game as a result of a goal or tiredness he will put mkhitaryan and either rashford or Martial in as a double sub and make the final killing blow with some fresh legs and pace.
Mkhitaryan seems to be better later in the game when there is more space. So Mourinho might start Zlatan instead of mkhitaryan and when more space opens up during the game as a result of a goal or tiredness he will put mkhitaryan and either rashford or Martial in as a double sub and make the final killing blow with some fresh legs and pace.
If we had Arsenals attacking style( smooth transitional passing/movement ),this formation would be great.
Our full backs are definitely good enough to play as Wingbacks,in fact I would argue that they are closer to being wingbacks than out and out full backs.Valencia and Young are wingers turned full backs,Darmian and Blind have both played many times as wingbacks,so I think the wingbacks should be the least of our worries....
When lukaku is rested, this is a dream set up for me.
Will never work when Valencia and Young are our fullbacks. They just awful and too slow on the ball.
No!
No ball playing defenders is never going to work with 3 at the back. No one can play the ball to our wingbacks no matter who plays there.
He doesn't really have a clue how to play it. Look how far up Azpilecueta pushes up to provide an extra option to the midfielders. While our CBs line up flat at the back.
Not even going to mention the dreadful use of the FBs.
Not even going to mention the dreadful use of the FBs.
3 CBs yet Morata was stood all alone for the goal. It's a formation that needs to be trained , not something you pull out of your back pocket
Exactly - when we are so adequate defensively with 2 of Bailey & Jones - why does he intend on adding Smalling in there? How does that benefit the team having 3 rocks at the back.
So poor
We lack players for this formation, did under LVG and that’s why he ditched it.
Young is only wing back and defenders aren’t good enough on the ball, 4-3-3 is way forward for this team.
Young is only wing back and defenders aren’t good enough on the ball, 4-3-3 is way forward for this team.
Worst formation and again to blame for our loss of form.
Its forced, I get it. With injuries to Pogba and Fellaini. However, I hope we dont see it again for the rest of the year.
Its forced, I get it. With injuries to Pogba and Fellaini. However, I hope we dont see it again for the rest of the year.
José is a poor manager at playing this formation. 3 at the back needs ball playing defenders - it's not rocket science.
Can't blame him for using it though. Who else can we put out there in midfield? Mctominay?
Doesnt help that Mkhitaryan has turned to dogshit and Mata/Lingard arent good enough.
Bailey - Blind - Jones
Blind would have given us an extra hand in midfield and an extra hand in defence; when playing 3 at the back we can't not have 3 CB's who don't bring the ball forward and initiate attacks - did you see what azpillicueta did today?
We played a flat back 3 bringing our whole attack a level back than where they should be.
I didn't understand why he went for this today. Especially considering how shit our wingback options are. It just left our attack reliant on Miki and rashford who were just not good enough. We were there not to lose which is the sad part.
The 3-5-2 offers even less in attack than when we play 4-2-3-1. There isn't a formation which suits our players due to lack of a quality left back, right winger and number 10.
Believe me 352 is a lot better than a 4231 in big games with the wrong personnel.
Even bloody Cahill initiated an attack by running with the ball 30-40 meters.
I’ve hated this poxy formation ever since Van Gaal introduced it. I refuse to believe that playing three central defenders against a lone striker is anything other than wilfully giving yourself a man disadvantage in every attacking area of the pitch. Feck that for a game of soldiers.
Throw Mkhitaryan in the mix and that becomes a two man disadvantage...
Throw Mkhitaryan in the mix and that becomes a two man disadvantage...
What exactly is the advantage of this system supposed to be?
The only advantage is if you have three defenders instead of five, but that relies on your defenders being good enough footballers to play under pressure, and organised enough to defend properly when under pressure...we have Chris Smalling and Phil Jones. One can't pass even when he isn't under pressure and the other I wouldn't trust to stay in his position if you put him in goal.
It does't esactly seem to aid us in any way when we get up the pitch either. No one seems to know where to run, no one ever has an out ball. It just looks the same as when we play with four at the back ecept instead of Mata we have no one, so the opposition just man mark all of our forwards and still have a man over.
The whole assumption of it being agood idea seemms to just be based on the fact other teams use it...but they use it because it suits most of their players and their tactics, not because it suits Ashley Young by making the rest of the team worse than him.
Setting up to deliberately play to the weaknesses of your players isn't the greatest tactic, really.
The Blind myth is boring as well. He is ne of the wrost players in our squad at playing football under pressure, and also isn't very good at defneding, and has been in terrible form alll season, even when the res tof the team has played well.
The only advantage is if you have three defenders instead of five, but that relies on your defenders being good enough footballers to play under pressure, and organised enough to defend properly when under pressure...we have Chris Smalling and Phil Jones. One can't pass even when he isn't under pressure and the other I wouldn't trust to stay in his position if you put him in goal.
It does't esactly seem to aid us in any way when we get up the pitch either. No one seems to know where to run, no one ever has an out ball. It just looks the same as when we play with four at the back ecept instead of Mata we have no one, so the opposition just man mark all of our forwards and still have a man over.
The whole assumption of it being agood idea seemms to just be based on the fact other teams use it...but they use it because it suits most of their players and their tactics, not because it suits Ashley Young by making the rest of the team worse than him.
Setting up to deliberately play to the weaknesses of your players isn't the greatest tactic, really.
The Blind myth is boring as well. He is ne of the wrost players in our squad at playing football under pressure, and also isn't very good at defneding, and has been in terrible form alll season, even when the res tof the team has played well.
@noodlehair @Pogue Mahone -
The advantage of it is 'theoretically' we will have numerical advantages depending on who has the ball throughout the match; we can either shut down their attack numerically or overdo their defence by numerically attacking them.
Just for example think of it like this
Bailey Rojo
Blind
Valencia matic pogba young
Martial
Lukaku rashford
CB's - playing with 3 at the back isn't playing with 3 stallwart defenders like José has us doing - it's playing 2 defenders with a midfielder who drops back in between the defence when the ball is not with us - the defence gets wider as this happens; not only just blocking a single striker like morata but also blocking the channels- basically creating a defensive wall.
Wingbacks - due to being outnumbered in the centre; the wingbacks fall back to defend the width the opposition are likely to attack. They are midfielders who drop down to defence to create a back 5.
Take this as an example of the back 5
Valencia - Bailey - Blind - Rojo - Young
We should 'theoretically' win the ball due to numbers and our first line of defenders are our wingbacks. Say for example Ashley's ypung or rojo intercept willian on the right wing; the ball needs to be played back to blind so blind can pass the ball across to Valencia who should be free on the opposite side in defence. This should be the main tactic of our counterattacking play; to find the free space to attack.
That's what happens in defence - 2 wide midfielders and 1 defensive midfielder drop down to protect our main 2 CB's - (the CB's we would play in any formation). It's these same midfielders who push the ball on from the back to initiate the counterattack.
Valencia or young join the forwards; the same way they joined the defences on the wings - since we have the protection of our main 2 defenders with a player like Blind; they do not need the protection of the wingbacks.
Just as much as blind would drop down to defend giving us 3 at the back; we would have a support striker who joins the forward on the attack & drops down on the defence. Say for example martial joins the attack.
Valencia Lukaku Martial Rashford young
If we lose the ball - Martial & the wingbacks all drop back again to outnumber the opposite team on the defence and on the attack.
There needs to be a player who drops in to defense as much as there is a player who joins the strikers - it allows us to switch from a 532 in defence to 235 in attack; without us being at risk of being hit on the counter attack.
Its a mix of possession & counterattacking; José has us at 532 consistently because no one can initiate the attack.
The advantage of it is 'theoretically' we will have numerical advantages depending on who has the ball throughout the match; we can either shut down their attack numerically or overdo their defence by numerically attacking them.
Just for example think of it like this
Bailey Rojo
Blind
Valencia matic pogba young
Martial
Lukaku rashford
CB's - playing with 3 at the back isn't playing with 3 stallwart defenders like José has us doing - it's playing 2 defenders with a midfielder who drops back in between the defence when the ball is not with us - the defence gets wider as this happens; not only just blocking a single striker like morata but also blocking the channels- basically creating a defensive wall.
Wingbacks - due to being outnumbered in the centre; the wingbacks fall back to defend the width the opposition are likely to attack. They are midfielders who drop down to defence to create a back 5.
Take this as an example of the back 5
Valencia - Bailey - Blind - Rojo - Young
We should 'theoretically' win the ball due to numbers and our first line of defenders are our wingbacks. Say for example Ashley's ypung or rojo intercept willian on the right wing; the ball needs to be played back to blind so blind can pass the ball across to Valencia who should be free on the opposite side in defence. This should be the main tactic of our counterattacking play; to find the free space to attack.
That's what happens in defence - 2 wide midfielders and 1 defensive midfielder drop down to protect our main 2 CB's - (the CB's we would play in any formation). It's these same midfielders who push the ball on from the back to initiate the counterattack.
Valencia or young join the forwards; the same way they joined the defences on the wings - since we have the protection of our main 2 defenders with a player like Blind; they do not need the protection of the wingbacks.
Just as much as blind would drop down to defend giving us 3 at the back; we would have a support striker who joins the forward on the attack & drops down on the defence. Say for example martial joins the attack.
Valencia Lukaku Martial Rashford young
If we lose the ball - Martial & the wingbacks all drop back again to outnumber the opposite team on the defence and on the attack.
There needs to be a player who drops in to defense as much as there is a player who joins the strikers - it allows us to switch from a 532 in defence to 235 in attack; without us being at risk of being hit on the counter attack.
Its a mix of possession & counterattacking; José has us at 532 consistently because no one can initiate the attack.
All of this again relies on pretending that Blind would actually be any good in the role you are suggesting he would be. Based on very llittle (if any at all) evidence that he would be.
The system is fine if you have the players suited to playing it. We don't.
For us it only seems to be effective at all when we're aggressive in the middle and can ge tthe ball to our forwards early...and there's no reason at all why we can't do that with four at the back...which would allow us a lot more flexibility in midfield and attack with the players we have.
If we wanted to play three at the back that much, we should have spent the last few transfer windows signing players that allow us to.
This formation clearly doesn't work for us, not the way Mourinho is setting it up anyway. Last week against Spurs and today we got outnumbered in midfield. Both Chelsea and Spurs played with only one striker and had a defender stepping into midfield. We had 3 centre backs at one end and two strikers at the other in between we had only 4-5 players in midfield that continually get outnumbered and dominated.
In this set-up i honestly don't see the point of it, for a start we don't need two strikers up top when we struggle to get the ball up to one. We just don't have the players to do it properly and Mourinho obviously doesn't like the system that much. We should just stick to a back 4 as the players are not used to playing this system especially against sides who play it every week and are accustomed to it and know how to turn it to their advantage.
Just like under Van Gaal this is looking like another failed experiment.
In this set-up i honestly don't see the point of it, for a start we don't need two strikers up top when we struggle to get the ball up to one. We just don't have the players to do it properly and Mourinho obviously doesn't like the system that much. We should just stick to a back 4 as the players are not used to playing this system especially against sides who play it every week and are accustomed to it and know how to turn it to their advantage.
Just like under Van Gaal this is looking like another failed experiment.
Blind & Martial are fine for now - they aren't being picked because they aren't good enough - they aren't being picked because José don't like these types of players. Lack of technicality in the team is down to thales preference of physicality. Pogba is the only player who can do both so has sucked any speciality we have.
Yeah this isn't for us. Using this formation fundamentally requires aggressive or creative wing backs, today made me emphatically realise we've got some dog shit wing backs. Okay as full backs, dog shit as WB's.
It also requires centre halves who can "play". Again we've got none of these.
It also requires centre halves who can "play". Again we've got none of these.
We have no center backs comfortable in possession or comfortably driving the ball forward. No creative full backs.
This is a terrible formation for us.
This is a terrible formation for us.
Martial not being picked might be down to Jose's preference, as I'm convinced a lot of the time he'd do better than Rashford and he'd certainly do better than Mhikitaryan. However this is the case regardless of the formation.
Blind though, isn't good enough. He wasn't good enough in either a back four or a back three under LVG. He is also quite poor at bringing the ball out from the back, and tends to keep hold of it for far too long. The idea he is the answer to anything is based on nothing but fantasy. He played at Stamford Bridge last year and cost us the game after 30 seconds. He played there the year before and cost us the game late on. Whenever he plays against a good side, he shows he's out of his depth.
You don't solve anything by simply wanting a player to be something they aren't.
Not for me. Smalling isn't good enough and Lindelof isn't ready. We have defensive midfield cover in Matic and Herrera and shouldn't need three cente backs.
I've never been a fan of it. It suits Chelsea, as they have guys like Azpi who steps up and bombs forward so they often end up having a wing back, and an extra full back overloading one side of the pitch. They just always seem to have an extra man in support. We seem to play it like Rodgers did at Liverpool, a flat 3, and we always look a man light in attack, whilst being overrun in midfield. I don't know what it is set out to achieve.
A back 3 of Bailly, Jones and Smalling are good but flawed individuals, but as a 3 together is just so imbalanced. Very little to offer with the ball, and off it, there's a lot of rashness between the 3 of them. I think it could be improved by having Blind or even Carrick as part of it, someone who can use the ball, and has the ability to not be a defender when we have the ball.
When all of your centre backs are limited on the ball, it makes little sense to have 3 of them on the pitch, exacerbating the weakness. It puts a great deal of responsibility on the 2 man midfield to do it all, and it's just too much. It happened at Anfield, it happened in spells against Spurs and it happened again at Chelsea. It's become a little bit LvG-esque in the way that we're employing the same tactic and expecting something different to happen.
A back 3 of Bailly, Jones and Smalling are good but flawed individuals, but as a 3 together is just so imbalanced. Very little to offer with the ball, and off it, there's a lot of rashness between the 3 of them. I think it could be improved by having Blind or even Carrick as part of it, someone who can use the ball, and has the ability to not be a defender when we have the ball.
When all of your centre backs are limited on the ball, it makes little sense to have 3 of them on the pitch, exacerbating the weakness. It puts a great deal of responsibility on the 2 man midfield to do it all, and it's just too much. It happened at Anfield, it happened in spells against Spurs and it happened again at Chelsea. It's become a little bit LvG-esque in the way that we're employing the same tactic and expecting something different to happen.
I don't like this formation one bit and not just because the players aren't familiar with it. Rashford isn't clever enough to play in this formation. He's got loads of skills but the worst aspect of his game is still a big one namely his off the ball understanding of the game and putting him in new surroundings just limits him.
Young and Valencia take on a bigger responsibility in attack. That's responsibility that they can't handle. Neither of them get into the box like we frequently see with Chelsea or Spurs fullbacks so that's 1 less player putting pressure on the opposition in a dangerous area.
It's just a bad formation. We defend better with 4 at the back anyways.
Young and Valencia take on a bigger responsibility in attack. That's responsibility that they can't handle. Neither of them get into the box like we frequently see with Chelsea or Spurs fullbacks so that's 1 less player putting pressure on the opposition in a dangerous area.
It's just a bad formation. We defend better with 4 at the back anyways.
Our wingbacks are shoddy, our CBs can't pass the ball to save their lives and our attacking midfielders are offensive.
The reason teams like Chelsea and Spurs use it is because when you look at how they play, every player is doing a specific job that is suited to them.
When we play it, Mhikitaryan is doing nothing, our third centreback is doing nothing. We have two players straight away on the pitch, who have no role at all in the system we are playing, let alone one that suits them. That should rule it out straight away. Rashford also does not seem to understand his role as being the support striker...he would be better as the front man but Lukaku is the same. So that's another player not suited to the system.
On the flip side, the benefits can be narrowed down to Ashley Young being able to be slightly more attacking than he would be in a back four. Sacrificing your entire team being effective so that Ahsley Young can cross the ball a couple more times is the sort of nonsense tactics LVG used to deploy.
When we play it, Mhikitaryan is doing nothing, our third centreback is doing nothing. We have two players straight away on the pitch, who have no role at all in the system we are playing, let alone one that suits them. That should rule it out straight away. Rashford also does not seem to understand his role as being the support striker...he would be better as the front man but Lukaku is the same. So that's another player not suited to the system.
On the flip side, the benefits can be narrowed down to Ashley Young being able to be slightly more attacking than he would be in a back four. Sacrificing your entire team being effective so that Ahsley Young can cross the ball a couple more times is the sort of nonsense tactics LVG used to deploy.
Not a fan, and it was a terrible call to use it yesterday.
I didn't get it either. I would have left Smalling out and used that man in midfield, where we were overrun on the day.
I would say go for the diamond sort of formation. Put two strikers close up front. Play an attacking midfield player maybe Zlatan. Then Pogba, Matic and Herrera in midfield with Zlatan dropping in if required. Two CBs, and two full backs.
Nooo... not the sp.... diamond!
What was it that was bad about the 4231 we started with?
What was it that was bad about the 4231 we started with?