Is it impossible that we could end up waiting another ten or even twenty years to win another Premier League?

Please. People forget that City were nowhere near this consistent before Pep. Liverpool hadn’t won the league for decades before Klopp. It will be the same after they leave. There is a good chance that they would struggle post them leaving to hire the right manager. Also seeing what happened with Chelsea , what would happen to City if their owners are sanctioned at some point?

Now on the other hand, imagine if we hire someone in the mold of these managers. We can provide them with as much, if not more money to buy the players they need as these other clubs.

The point is that some of this needs proactive measures (City prepping for Pep) and some of it is luck (Klopp was available for Liverpool at the right time, and they got the Coutinho money at the perfect time). We don’t know what will happen 3-4 years from now.
 
yeah of course it is

the smaller PL clubs have a lot more money, and then there's City and Newcastle who have more buying power

back in the day we could take whoever we wanted from most clubs in the PL, now we have to pay ridiculous amounts to get players from the likes of Leicester and West Ham

we're no longer guaranteed contenders just because of our size, and we have to make very good decisions to even get back to that point.. let alone win it
 
We will not win the PL or the CL as long as the Glazers own and run the club. The gap to City and Pool is mindboggling.
 
Impossible? No. But in sport things turn around very quickly, you can't really predict the next 5 to 10 years.
 
LoneStar said:
Please. People forget that City were nowhere near this consistent before Pep. Liverpool hadn’t won the league for decades before Klopp. It will be the same after they leave. There is a good chance that they would struggle post them leaving to hire the right manager. Also seeing what happened with Chelsea , what would happen to City if their owners are sanctioned at some point?

Now on the other hand, imagine if we hire someone in the mold of these managers. We can provide them with as much, if not more money to buy the players they need as these other clubs.

The point is that some of this needs proactive measures (City prepping for Pep) and some of it is luck (Klopp was available for Liverpool at the right time, and they got the Coutinho money at the perfect time). We don’t know what will happen 3-4 years from now.
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I have heard this said. To the best of my understanding this reasoning is predicated on the assumption that after Pep and Klopp, City and Liverpool will blunder as we did with a succession of short-term and poorly thought through managerial appointments? In City and Liverpool, we are looking at two really well run clubs who are committed to achieving success on the pitch (albeit with different operating models). If City and Liverpool are planning the succession for Pep and Klopp in the way that they plan their player recruitment, I would not at all be surprised if they are already scouting candidates for tactical acumen, track record of success, personality and overall fit with the culture of their club. We assume that just because we are run more like a McDonalds than a football team, that other big clubs are doing likewise.
 
fastwalker said:
I have heard this said. To the best of my understanding this reasoning is predicated on the assumption that after Pep and Klopp, City and Liverpool will blunder as we did with a succession of short-term and poorly thought through managerial appointments? In City and Liverpool, we are looking at two really well run clubs who are committed to achieving success on the pitch (albeit with different operating models). If City and Liverpool are planning the succession for Pep and Klopp in the way that they plan their player recruitment, I would not at all be surprised if they are already scouting candidates for tactical acumen, track record of success, personality and overall fit with the culture of their club. We assume that just because we are run more like a McDonalds than a football team, that other big clubs are doing likewise.
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If you remove Klopps years from Liverpool, would you really be saying that they are a well run club dating back20 years? They have had a worse period than us prior to that. And they’ve made equally baffling player transfers and manager signings in that period. The currently reality doesn’t change that fact. Your statement will be true if they can show that they can continue success after Klopp leaves.

I have already told that City did plan well for Pep, so they are better run in that sense. But Pep is arguably the best manager right now, his successor might be hit or miss, or at least fall down from the insane levels of Peps teams. Nobody knows, is my point
 
JebelSherif said:
There was a very good caller to Radio 5's 606 last night who had a view that resonates with this thread. It was at about 7ish pm.

He basically said that to move forward, the club needs to stop living in the past: take down the statue of Sir Alex he mentioned. I would add change the name of his stand too. Ask him to attend the games but discreetly (maybe in a disguise*) because otherwise his presence & the history of his time, casts such an intimidating aura over the club that they can never win again.

Without this sea change no decent manager will want to join in the summer as they know there is a back-seat driver (or at the very least - a back-seat imposing passenger) & no up and coming players will want to come because a) Utd. are unlikely to be in the Champions league and b) they will still be living on past glories. Old Trafford will become a football version of the Harlem Globe trotters, a retirement home for the greats of yesteryear and whilst still getting massive media coverage and the odd shock result (like yesterday), they wont actually win anything.

There is a three-week gap now till the next league game.... get some men in and make some changes.


*People may laugh at this and say he has earned the right to sit in a directors box pulling faces, but my point is - it is actually history repeating itself: Sir Matt Busby in the early 1970s. As the saying goes: 'Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.'
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This is one of the dumbest post I have read here up there with worst take on the Situation maybe in your head it made lot of sense but trust me it come across as plain stupid and lazy .
 
LoneStar said:
If you remove Klopps years from Liverpool, would you really be saying that they are a well run club dating back20 years? They have had a worse period than us prior to that. And they’ve made equally baffling player transfers and manager signings in that period. The currently reality doesn’t change that fact. Your statement will be true if they can show that they can continue success after Klopp leaves.

I have already told that City did plan well for Pep, so they are better run in that sense. But Pep is arguably the best manager right now, his successor might be hit or miss, or at least fall down from the insane levels of Peps teams. Nobody knows, is my point
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Point taken. But as a basic principle that is a bit like saying: 'if you remove Sir Alex's years' or 'if you remove Roman Abramovich's years' or 'if you remove Pep's years'. The fact is that Klopp's years are very much part of what makes Liverpool a well run club today. Since Klopp they have clearly learnt lessons, from past failings, have a very good player recruitment record and are now seeing that diligence rewarded with success. Whatever Klopp and the club that employs him are doing currently is clearly working well. Again, as I pointed out previously, it appears that we are hoping or almost assuming that both City and Liverpool will forgo the good habits that made them successful just because we have. Is that possible? Anything is possible in football. However, based on how well those two clubs are now, it seems far more likely to me that they will build on the lessons that have made them successful and learn from the failings of others like United and continue to recruit well.
 
As long as we get the next manager right, someone who plays the modern game and is allowed the freedom to discard players, not fit them in because their social media is high, they started at the club as a kid, but not good enough or the last manager spunked a fortune on them, then maybe.
If we go down any other route where we don't move these players on, then we got no chance
 
fastwalker said:
Desperately trying to avoid being hyperbolic here, but would been keen to know the view of other caf members.

Taking a step back, the facts are fair;y clear; after a quarter of a century of unmatched success, in terms of PL silverware, United are no longer competitive. In the years since Sir Alex's departure we have not just been overtaken by City, but also Chelsea, Liverpool..Even Leicester have won a PL title more recently than us. It is likely that in the next few years Newcastle will emerge as a dominant force in the Premier League. Next season Arsenal will likely replace us in the Champions League and if their current trajectory is anything to go by, could well be on the way to becoming a serious PL contender again in the years to come. Let's wait and see.

By contrast, after three years of 'rebuilding' under Ole, we are doing nothing more than flattering to deceive. The argument will be made that like Tuchel at Chelsea, a manager can revive a club's fortunes in half a season and as such, the only missing ingredient is the right manager. However, winning the CL is not the same as winning the PL. Rafa Benitez managed to win a CL trophy and failed to win the PL in five attempts. There is no doubt that results and performances of United do not do justice to the quality of the squad. However, it is fairly obvious that the issues at United are about more than the right manager and the quality of the playing staff. In recent months the culture and attitude at the club have also been found wanting. These are exactly the sorts of issues that kept Liverpool in the tittle wilderness for three decades.

By dint of our heritage, United will always be a big club. As such we will always attract ambitious players and managers, but by itself will that be enough? Do you think there is a realistic prospect that we could be looking at decades in the PL title wilderness?
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If the status-quo remains the same, meaning the Glazers don’t leave, it is more possible than impossible.
 
Well I didn’t think it would take this long so yeah
 
gajender said:
This is one of the dumbest post I have read here up there with worst take on the Situation maybe in your head it made lot of sense but trust me it come across as plain stupid and lazy .
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Maybe I didn't explain myself well enough. Let me have another go: Manchester United made a big mistake (and continue to make a big mistake) employing their ex-manager as a 'club Ambassador' on I believe £4 million a year. No other club does this sort of thing, but then again no other big club would employ an interim manager on a six month + two year consultancy deal either, would they?

He has meddled badly, whether it was the Moyes thing at the start, right up to ringing Ronaldo last year & then criticising Ole for dropping him v Everton and before you say anything about Christiano (because of yesterday) 'one swallow doesn't make a summer...' Furthermore, Sir Alex Ferguson is inextricably linked to the Glazers and yet so many fans with rose-tinted glasses seem to forget this.

I stand by what I said, United should cut their ties with SAF if they want to get back to the top again. It is history repeating itself and I'm not the only person to have this viewpoint.
 
Very possible. We waited 26 years already between 1967 and 1993. Liverpool waited 30. Arsenal since 2004. These things happen. And I wouldn't be surprised if next time called 'United' to win Premier League is Newcastle with all the money they'll be spending over next few years.
 
The league with the money became very competitive as never. The lower teams started to hire progressive managers and it's difficult to beat them easily these days unless you have a manager and squad like Liverpool or city which are well oiled machines. The fear is justified.

However with very quality academy, strong financial situation, we are still one manager appointment of competing again (not winning) . Still this feels very far as this step needs to be taken and the people who decide need to be competent enough. Fingers crossed as the situation can get worse with more and more quality players and managers in the league.
 
It's not impossible. Nothing is impossible - Leicester won a league title for goodness sake!

We are not at a good point, the squad is very random, we're approaching a turnover of players that have been here a while, we have an interim manager, we're struggling for CL football. If we have a couple more periods of sustained investment with similar results to what we have seen we are looking at another decade of no success.

But if we get things right over the next couple of years people will be striking a completely different tone. If the right manager is put in place, he is backed, the football improves, results slowly improve - the whole feeling will be nothing like the present. Nobody will be talking about a decade of non-success, we'll be talking about challenging for the title. That's not a remote possibility, we're only talking about a good manager making reasonable progress - not unrealistic.

Absolutely pointless to talk about a decade of no titles in my opinion, what's the benefit? Of course it's possible but it's also utterly depressing and beyond anything we can influence as fans.
 
We'll need to rely on fluking our way to hiring the next Klopp, because the careful planning and clever decision making needed to get us where we need to be just isn't something our club is capable of. It's not impossible we'll win the league in the next few years, but as things stand I'd say it's highly unlikely that we'll win it within the next decade.

The fan base is as bad as the club too and still living in the past and unwilling to learn from mistakes. Everything is too reactionary and fickle. Three years of tolerating Solskjaer showed this, as all it took was one win after a few bad results for people to change their mind. Ronaldo can go for months playing poorly, but then he scores a few goals and he's the best thing since sliced bread and the man to lead our line for the next season. There's no real thought put into the long term and the bigger picture. We're going around in circles repeating the same mistakes and being predictably reactionary.

When you compare it with City the contrast is startling. It's easy to say they simply spent a lot of money, but the way they operate and the personnel they have who are responsible for the domination we see, it was all carefully planned for over a number of years. Money simply facilitated their ability to execute the plan.

Bottom line is we're not going to win the league without a big overhaul to the way we operate, or unless we luck out with stumbling our way to finding the next exceptionally talented manager. I have little confidence we'll do either and fully expect us to continue doing what we've been doing for the past 9 years.
 
gajender said:
This is one of the dumbest post I have read here up there with worst take on the Situation maybe in your head it made lot of sense but trust me it come across as plain stupid and lazy .
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He's the most obvious WUM on this forum. Surprised he hasn't been banned yet.
 
We've done 9 years with just a couple of distant 2nds, and that's in a period we've lashed the wad around.

Imagine if we stop doing that, even if we did stumble across the right manager?
 
Dr. StrangeHate said:
Unless we get a Klopp, there is no way to compete with two state owned clubs. They will outspend us by 100 millions a year if you consider club from top to bottom. There is no competing with that.
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It'd be interesting to actually compare the spends of us and City properly over the last 10 years.
I wonder if it's as huge a difference as you're suggesting.
 
10-20 years it's a long time, but if we keep being managed like we had we might not will ever again. It's not a thing about time, but about change.

If we change things we can be challenging within a couple of years, if not there's not enough time to make current management competent.
 
fastwalker said:
Desperately trying to avoid being hyperbolic here, but would been keen to know the view of other caf members.

Taking a step back, the facts are fair;y clear; after a quarter of a century of unmatched success, in terms of PL silverware, United are no longer competitive. In the years since Sir Alex's departure we have not just been overtaken by City, but also Chelsea, Liverpool..Even Leicester have won a PL title more recently than us. It is likely that in the next few years Newcastle will emerge as a dominant force in the Premier League. Next season Arsenal will likely replace us in the Champions League and if their current trajectory is anything to go by, could well be on the way to becoming a serious PL contender again in the years to come. Let's wait and see.

By contrast, after three years of 'rebuilding' under Ole, we are doing nothing more than flattering to deceive. The argument will be made that like Tuchel at Chelsea, a manager can revive a club's fortunes in half a season and as such, the only missing ingredient is the right manager. However, winning the CL is not the same as winning the PL. Rafa Benitez managed to win a CL trophy and failed to win the PL in five attempts. There is no doubt that results and performances of United do not do justice to the quality of the squad. However, it is fairly obvious that the issues at United are about more than the right manager and the quality of the playing staff. In recent months the culture and attitude at the club have also been found wanting. These are exactly the sorts of issues that kept Liverpool in the tittle wilderness for three decades.

By dint of our heritage, United will always be a big club. As such we will always attract ambitious players and managers, but by itself will that be enough? Do you think there is a realistic prospect that we could be looking at decades in the PL title wilderness?
Click to expand...

Well, it's certainly not impossible. But really nobody knows at this point. We could win the PL within a few years: it depends on how the club responds to the horrors of this season (and several of the last). It will involve having people in place who will make better decisions. In other words, it is at least partly up to us. Getting the next mananger right is crucial, obviously. In general terms, I agree that Utd needs to shake off its former glories and nostalgic mode and start facing up to the grim present reality.

But can those in place now- Murtough, Fletcher, Ralf as consultant, new manager etc.- make good decisions about how to get there? I think Ralf has done enough already for me to feel at least somewhat hopeful.

It's going to take time, though, and depends a little bit on us here, and all of the Utd fans- we'll have to be patient and not throw the toys out of the pram if we don't win anything for a couple of years. Everything changes. Our time will come again, and it will be all the sweeter for the last desolate decade.
 
Sandikan said:
It'd be interesting to actually compare the spends of us and City properly over the last 10 years.
I wonder if it's as huge a difference as you're suggesting.
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They have spent billion on facilities and the academy structure alone as that doesn't come under FFP.
 
We haven't got that clown sitting upstairs now, If Arnold surrounds himself with people like Ralf to make the football decisions we might just get out of this mess.

The next few months are important for us, get the right man in to take over from Ralf and start working on player recruitment, doubt we will become title favourites overnight but we will know pretty quickly if we heading in the right direction.
 
I think with the current structure at the club the likelihood is we will not win anything significant until some heads in the hierarchy of the club role and we bring in people who know what there doing and have proven success in implementing squad building & coaching implementation

However, say what you want about the Glazers, more than enough funds have been spent in the post Fergie era to build title-winning teams however the funds have just generally been wasted. So if a manager came in who really knew what he was doing in matches, training and the transfer market and therefore could bypass the ineptitude of the clubs hierarchy and use the clubs funds well and bring in success, then that is a possibility.

Personally, though I think the way the club is run it will be a very long time before we see any significant success again.
 
hp88 said:
We haven't got that clown sitting upstairs now, If Arnold surrounds himself with people like Ralf to make the football decisions we might just get out of this mess.

The next few months are important for us, get the right man in to take over from Ralf and start working on player recruitment, doubt we will become title favourites overnight but we will know pretty quickly if we heading in the right direction.
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I find little hope in the idea that things will change under Arnold, he has been at the club since 2008, like Murtough has been at the club since 2013. So the 2 people now in charge of restructuring the football side of the business are people who have at least had a part in the mess that has been the last decade.
 
Last edited:
The club always breaks records. This time it will be no different. One century of no league trophy.
 
JebelSherif said:
There was a very good caller to Radio 5's 606 last night who had a view that resonates with this thread. It was at about 7ish pm.

He basically said that to move forward, the club needs to stop living in the past: take down the statue of Sir Alex he mentioned. I would add change the name of his stand too. Ask him to attend the games but discreetly (maybe in a disguise*) because otherwise his presence & the history of his time, casts such an intimidating aura over the club that they can never win again.

Without this sea change no decent manager will want to join in the summer as they know there is a back-seat driver (or at the very least - a back-seat imposing passenger) & no up and coming players will want to come because a) Utd. are unlikely to be in the Champions league and b) they will still be living on past glories. Old Trafford will become a football version of the Harlem Globe trotters, a retirement home for the greats of yesteryear and whilst still getting massive media coverage and the odd shock result (like yesterday), they wont actually win anything.

There is a three-week gap now till the next league game.... get some men in and make some changes.


*People may laugh at this and say he has earned the right to sit in a directors box pulling faces, but my point is - it is actually history repeating itself: Sir Matt Busby in the early 1970s. As the saying goes: 'Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.'
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This is a ridiculous post in a lot of ways but i have bolded the low lights. i am puzzled by what you mean about a backseat driver Ferguson has notably stayed away from most managers unless he was asked to which Ole i am led to believe did you didnt see him around Van Gaal or Jose.

Also in the 70's a lot of players were still Busby's players and would go and visit him to undermine the manager, who is left from Ferguson's days De Gea and Ronaldo, its such a lazy comparison that bares no actual fact in reality.
 
JebelSherif said:
Maybe I didn't explain myself well enough. Let me have another go: Manchester United made a big mistake (and continue to make a big mistake) employing their ex-manager as a 'club Ambassador' on I believe £4 million a year. No other club does this sort of thing, but then again no other big club would employ an interim manager on a six month + two year consultancy deal either, would they?

He has meddled badly, whether it was the Moyes thing at the start, right up to ringing Ronaldo last year & then criticising Ole for dropping him v Everton and before you say anything about Christiano (because of yesterday) 'one swallow doesn't make a summer...' Furthermore, Sir Alex Ferguson is inextricably linked to the Glazers and yet so many fans with rose-tinted glasses seem to forget this.

I stand by what I said, United should cut their ties with SAF if they want to get back to the top again. It is history repeating itself and I'm not the only person to have this viewpoint.
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I agree with the Fergie shouldn't have a say on who the next manager should be or having a say on who to buy or pick to play. This happened under Busby as well. Their time was great, but football has moved on. Fergie knew his domineering was coming to an end and was the perfect time to leave.
 
Nytram Shakes said:
I find little hope in the idea that things will change under Arnold, he has been at the club since 2008, like Murtough has been at the club since 2013. So the 2 people now in charge of restructuring the football side of the business are people who have at least had a part in the mess that has been the last decade.
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You could also look at it and say Woodward was such a prick he had the final say and maybe disregarded murtough on football decisions. He said about Ole he decided to keep him on rather than wait until the end of the season, after the PSG result. That sounds like a whim of his rather than follow the process laid out.
 
fastwalker said:
Desperately trying to avoid being hyperbolic here, but would been keen to know the view of other caf members.

Taking a step back, the facts are fair;y clear; after a quarter of a century of unmatched success, in terms of PL silverware, United are no longer competitive. In the years since Sir Alex's departure we have not just been overtaken by City, but also Chelsea, Liverpool..Even Leicester have won a PL title more recently than us. It is likely that in the next few years Newcastle will emerge as a dominant force in the Premier League. Next season Arsenal will likely replace us in the Champions League and if their current trajectory is anything to go by, could well be on the way to becoming a serious PL contender again in the years to come. Let's wait and see.

By contrast, after three years of 'rebuilding' under Ole, we are doing nothing more than flattering to deceive. The argument will be made that like Tuchel at Chelsea, a manager can revive a club's fortunes in half a season and as such, the only missing ingredient is the right manager. However, winning the CL is not the same as winning the PL. Rafa Benitez managed to win a CL trophy and failed to win the PL in five attempts. There is no doubt that results and performances of United do not do justice to the quality of the squad. However, it is fairly obvious that the issues at United are about more than the right manager and the quality of the playing staff. In recent months the culture and attitude at the club have also been found wanting. These are exactly the sorts of issues that kept Liverpool in the tittle wilderness for three decades.

By dint of our heritage, United will always be a big club. As such we will always attract ambitious players and managers, but by itself will that be enough? Do you think there is a realistic prospect that we could be looking at decades in the PL title wilderness?
Click to expand...

May be a case where they never win it again.
Unless the business is sold to billionaire owners that will compete with the others
 
JebelSherif said:
Maybe I didn't explain myself well enough. Let me have another go: Manchester United made a big mistake (and continue to make a big mistake) employing their ex-manager as a 'club Ambassador' on I believe £4 million a year. No other club does this sort of thing, but then again no other big club would employ an interim manager on a six month + two year consultancy deal either, would they?

He has meddled badly, whether it was the Moyes thing at the start, right up to ringing Ronaldo last year & then criticising Ole for dropping him v Everton and before you say anything about Christiano (because of yesterday) 'one swallow doesn't make a summer...' Furthermore, Sir Alex Ferguson is inextricably linked to the Glazers and yet so many fans with rose-tinted glasses seem to forget this.

I stand by what I said, United should cut their ties with SAF if they want to get back to the top again. It is history repeating itself and I'm not the only person to have this viewpoint.
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You are looking at it as a football fan. Ferguson is commercial gold. That's why he's in place

People need to shift their minds and understand that Manchester United is a business. Ferguson is a live link to that heritage. There is no way he gets cut.
 
I’d say more probable than impossible.

Newcastle will likely be competing within 5 years. City will pretty much always be up there at this point.

Liverpool will find success harder to maintain due to having to operate like a normal football club but benefit from an excellent manager and being extremely well run.

Chelsea have a knack for just refusing fecking off even when things start going sour at the club.

We are going find incredibly difficult to compete unfortunately.
 
Even aside from being up against state-owned clubs, the commercial advantages we have had are eroding, or at least other teams have caught up. The more time that passes the tougher it gets.
 
I believe United will go through a Liverpool level drought (30 years).
 
wolvored said:
You could also look at it and say Woodward was such a prick he had the final say and maybe disregarded murtough on football decisions. He said about Ole he decided to keep him on rather than wait until the end of the season, after the PSG result. That sounds like a whim of his rather than follow the process laid out.
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I think that would be looking at things with very rose tinted spectacles, saying the absolute disaster that has been the running of the football side of the buissness is all down to one man, and everyone around him knew what they where doing. That strikes me as a bit naive.
Plus let’s not forget Woodward hired Murtough for the DOF position, it’s a bit of a contradiction to think Woodward made a great appointment, but only made it so he could ignore him.

Its very unlikely there will be significant change in the way the club becuase Woodward has left, because everyone at the club in a position of power now was out there by Woodward, so it’s still his regime.
 
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