Is Casgarte/Ugamiro the new Mcfred?

tomaldinho1 said:
I disagree, I can't really think of a time this has ever happened i.e. a manager has had a preferred way of playing but has needed to spend at least a season doing something else just to survive. All the managers who do well, come in and stamp their ideas onto the team and then recruit accordingly.

The first season, for me at least, was just proof that any half decent coach can spend £150m+ a year and setup a counter/double pivot system and compete for top4 - Mou, Ole, ETH all did it and all did fine with it, Mou and ETH even won multiple trophies but we were never close to the top teams.

I don't disagree the style did not suit the players, but I think it was best he stuck to whatever he was trying to do and failed than we just coasted along playing in a manner we know will never get us anywhere.
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The problem though is that he wasn't getting closer to the team he needed particularly because he underestimated the physical demands of the league. With every passing window we were getting further and further away from what he said he wanted to build, we missed out of FDJ and bought Casemiro, we needed quicker defenders but ended up in his third season with De Ligt and Martinez as starters and playing Bruno and Mount as twin 8s was bonkers because they didn't have the physicality needed nor the ball retention you would want.
 
AneRu said:
The problem though is that he wasn't getting closer to the team he needed particularly because he underestimated the physical demands of the league. With every passing window we were getting further and further away from what he said he wanted to build, we missed out of FDJ and bought Casemiro, we needed quicker defenders but ended up in his third season with De Ligt and Martinez as starters and playing Bruno and Mount as twin 8s was bonkers because they didn't have the physicality needed nor the ball retention you would want.
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You'll find no argument from me re recruitment issues
 
Was watching the replay. Ugarte and Casemiro were menacing monsters in the midfield. Never seen such accomplished defensive performance by a pair for a very very long time in United shirt. Can't compare their yesterday's performance with Mct and Fred. They were nowhere near this technical quality.
 
Thing I’m learning from this thread: Casemiro is a better footballer than Scott McTominay.
 
Casemiro is definitely not done as an elite player. He has exceptional fitness and conditioning. In fact he was legendary, even at Madrid, for being one of the most disciplined and in-shape footballers out there. He was ultra professional, even by modern standards. So I think he has another couple of years at the top level. The ONLY issue with him, was that he was playing in an absolute muddle of a team. Instructions meant that he never had a midfield partner, because they were running all over the pitch. He was asked to cover a ridiculous amount of ground, and rarely had decent passing options. In that last few matches we've seen an enormous uptick in his performances, because he's had a partner close to him, and he's been able to do what he does best....screen the defence and recycle possession. We've also been reminded that he has a really good passing range, which is often overlooked. Personally, I am absolutely delighted we didn't move him on in the summer, and the hierarchy could see that we were criminally misusing one of our most important players.

Ugarte is at the opposite end of his career, but is going to be a big, big player for us. His front foot defending and reading of the game is elite. His engine is fantastic, and he has a very underrated passing range. He's also as hard as nails, and together with Casemiro, provides that grit and bite in CM that we've badly lacked for ages. The way the two supported each other, and operated as a duo against Leicester, was a joy to behold, and a sign of what we've been missing and how badly ETH managed us. One of the things that I like most about Ugarte, is his ability to run with the ball from deep, and break through the lines of press with the ball at his feet. He's a very good ball carrier, especially for a player who is mainly seen as a destroyer (he's much more than that). Not a comment on quality, but in terms of how he plays, where he does his work, and his primary strengths and weaknesses, he reminds me of Kante so much.

I would potentially say that a Casemiro/Ugarte CM pairing isn't creative enough, but when you have Bruno in front of them, I don't think it matters at all. The fact we have Mainoo to come back and rotate with them, really gives us some exciting options in CM. Furthermore, the switch to Amorim's favoured 3-4-3, which doesn't have wingers, but instead has two CMs and two AMs, is really well suited to make the most of having that robust base that wins the ball, recycles possession, wins it high, and progresses it to the AMs, where you'd expect Bruno and Amad to absolutely shine in central areas.

TL;DR - I'm a big fan of the pairing. And no, it's fecking nothing like McFred. Christ on a cracker.
 
Lentwood said:
Ugarte and Casemiro are miles better than McTominay and Fred.

Why do we always do this? Why do we spend season after season lambasting players and then pine for them when they leave?
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This 100% We have moaners on here who just like to moan at everything. If we won 9/10 games and drew the 10th at Liverpool/City, you could put money on it somebody would moan.
 
Desert Eagle said:
I didn't mean to make extending Casemiro's career as some final goal but having a competent midfield base would go a long way to solving our structural issues. I think we agree that Casgarte can be a decent top 4 level midfield but still needs an upgrade in at least one but probably both positions to be top tier.
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I'd say it would be some sort of short term bandaid. I think, there is nothing that is more important right now than continue the update of Manchester United OS. And even when ETH finally didn't succeeded to make it work, we have to get some organized pressing going otherwise we will continue to be at a disadvantage. Teams that are where we want to be aren't using a Ugamiro-like midfield these days, we should take that as a hint. That being said, for now, for the next 4-8 matches, sure, go for it but only as long it doesn't prevent the actual progress.
 
Casemiro and Urgate are a partnership finally. As in they are playing close together and closing players down. I have no idea why Ten Hag had us so open, when yesterday showed you get your rewards if you (silly I know) dont let 18 shots at your keeper every game. This is going back to when we were actually winning games 2 years ago. Just a mess of a set up.
 
FujiVice said:
Casemiro and Urgate are a partnership finally. As in they are playing close together and closing players down. I have no idea why Ten Hag had us so open, when yesterday showed you get your rewards if you (silly I know) dont let 18 shots at your keeper every game. This is going back to when we were actually winning games 2 years ago. Just a mess of a set up.
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We weren't really as open this year before ten hag was sacked. But yeah casemiro and Ugarte to me was an obvious pairing he didn't bother with.
 
Supposed to be Maigarte.
 
Casemiro-Ugarte pairing has better progressive passing and more structurally sound than McFred.

mcFred’s was more energetic but was mostly chaotic, pointless sidewards passing and tactically naive.

Still I believe Casemiro’s best years are behind him and a new replacement is sorely needed. Hopefully mainoo steps up.
 
I like this pair together. It will be much harder to score against us with them in the middle and close together. Sure, we could be better on the ball, but we're coming from quite a way back after 18 months of lunacy from EtH, and I'm enjoying the competency.
 
Its just the new Casemiro-Fred.

What's interesting is our best midfield pairing this season has actually been Mainoo-Eriksen, for those with longer memories than a goldfish.
 
It's one game. As much as I am excited by what I saw, it was against Leicester. I'd like to see how they fare over a decent run of fixtures and against some better opposition.
 
McFred gt a lot of stick on here considering it's the only semi dependable midfield combo we've had since Ferguson retired. Limited sure but we missed both last season (with ETH deciding Mctominay was basically an extra forward).

I don't think Casemiro is comparable either as he will take the ball in the half turn and play a pass in behind. Something that apart from him, only Pogba and Eriksen have had in their locker post Ferguson. Ability wise he's leagues ahead of Mcfred he just doesn't have the legs of either.

Too early to say with Ugarte. If he can grow into a decent defensive midfielder you'd think he'd be the mainstay with Casemiro or Mainoo being in the more play dictating role, but Ugartehasnt shown he can do that yet (in fairness he hasn't had a chance to so it's not a verdict one way or the other.

Leicester were too shite to base any judgement from. We struggled a few days earlier vs a middling Europa league side.
 
Desert Eagle said:
Or is it enough of an upgrade to have us challenging the top teams?

I'm of the camp that Casemiro is largely done as an elite footballer but giving him minimal responsibility and extra protection ( which also extends to other players like Bruno) could extend his career for a year or two.
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They’re closer to Scholes / Carrick than they are to McFred.
 
SuperiorXI said:
My feeling is that Casemiro was very exposed under ETH system, I think there is very few players in the world that could do that role. He looks much better in the system Ruud plays.
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like who
 
simonhch said:
Casemiro is definitely not done as an elite player. He has exceptional fitness and conditioning. In fact he was legendary, even at Madrid, for being one of the most disciplined and in-shape footballers out there. He was ultra professional, even by modern standards. So I think he has another couple of years at the top level. The ONLY issue with him, was that he was playing in an absolute muddle of a team. Instructions meant that he never had a midfield partner, because they were running all over the pitch. He was asked to cover a ridiculous amount of ground, and rarely had decent passing options. In that last few matches we've seen an enormous uptick in his performances, because he's had a partner close to him, and he's been able to do what he does best....screen the defence and recycle possession. We've also been reminded that he has a really good passing range, which is often overlooked. Personally, I am absolutely delighted we didn't move him on in the summer, and the hierarchy could see that we were criminally misusing one of our most important players.

Ugarte is at the opposite end of his career, but is going to be a big, big player for us. His front foot defending and reading of the game is elite. His engine is fantastic, and he has a very underrated passing range. He's also as hard as nails, and together with Casemiro, provides that grit and bite in CM that we've badly lacked for ages. The way the two supported each other, and operated as a duo against Leicester, was a joy to behold, and a sign of what we've been missing and how badly ETH managed us. One of the things that I like most about Ugarte, is his ability to run with the ball from deep, and break through the lines of press with the ball at his feet. He's a very good ball carrier, especially for a player who is mainly seen as a destroyer (he's much more than that). Not a comment on quality, but in terms of how he plays, where he does his work, and his primary strengths and weaknesses, he reminds me of Kante so much.

I would potentially say that a Casemiro/Ugarte CM pairing isn't creative enough, but when you have Bruno in front of them, I don't think it matters at all. The fact we have Mainoo to come back and rotate with them, really gives us some exciting options in CM. Furthermore, the switch to Amorim's favoured 3-4-3, which doesn't have wingers, but instead has two CMs and two AMs, is really well suited to make the most of having that robust base that wins the ball, recycles possession, wins it high, and progresses it to the AMs, where you'd expect Bruno and Amad to absolutely shine in central areas.

TL;DR - I'm a big fan of the pairing. And no, it's fecking nothing like McFred. Christ on a cracker.
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100% spot on. And seeing McFred compared to Casemiro/Ugarte pisses me off. I know this is just an Internet forum but I’ve been on a several United forums over the years, including RedIssue, and the caf is far and away the best United forum but this comparison boils my blood and has to stop here.
 
lex talionis said:
100% spot on. And seeing McFred compared to Casemiro/Ugarte pisses me off. I know this is just an Internet forum but I’ve been on a several United forums over the years, including RedIssue, and the caf is far and away the best United forum but this comparison boils my blood and has to stop here.
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Why does the comparison boil your blood? People have selective memory it seems when it comes to McFred. Yes they weren't good enough and correctly moved on but they were also at the heart of everything good we did pre ETH. Almost all the best Ole moments have Mcfred as the base. They were good enough to get us to 2nd in the league. Casgarte hasn't achieved anything at this club even though they might be unanimously perceived as superior players individually. Casemiro has been better recently but it's a very small sample size and Ugarte is largely unproven. I think it's a completely fair question to ask if this is midfield pair will be good enough to get us where we want to go.


elmo said:
They’re closer to Scholes / Carrick than they are to McFred.
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I see them like a poor mans version of Butt and Keane.
 
Desert Eagle said:
Why does the comparison boil your blood? People have selective memory it seems when it comes to McFred. Yes they weren't good enough and correctly moved on but they were also at the heart of everything good we did pre ETH. Almost all the best Ole moments have Mcfred as the base. They were good enough to get us to 2nd in the league. Casgarte hasn't achieved anything at this club even though they might be unanimously perceived as superior players individually. Casemiro has been better recently but it's a very small sample size and Ugarte is largely unproven. I think it's a completely fair question to ask if this is midfield pair will be good enough to get us where we want to go.




I see them like a poor mans version of Butt and Keane.
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I’m sorry, as much as I respect Fred and McTominay for trying hard, they were never in any way a purring engine in midfield for United.

Fred had some moments and Scotty scored some critical goals for under ten Hag, but no one on the planet watching those two under Ole dropped their jaw in admiration over United’s midfield. But they did work hard and they respected the badge, and for that we should admire their service to the club.
 
astracrazy said:
Why?

How many times does he need to say he will be sticking to what he knows?
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He doesn't know the players yet, that may give him food for thought... ETH was supposed to be sticking to what he knows and look what happened.
How many of the 'liturgy' of permanent managers that have come in since SAF have come in determined to do it their way?

The road to hell... paved with good intentions!

Who knows, this guy just might be different... lets hope so
 
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