Is Casgarte/Ugamiro the new Mcfred?

Desert Eagle

Punjabi Dude
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Or is it enough of an upgrade to have us challenging the top teams?

I'm of the camp that Casemiro is largely done as an elite footballer but giving him minimal responsibility and extra protection ( which also extends to other players like Bruno) could extend his career for a year or two.
 
My feeling is that Casemiro was very exposed under ETH system, I think there is very few players in the world that could do that role. He looks much better in the system Ruud plays.
 
I don’t see the similarities at all. McFred was 2 players who were better going forward being asked to play as holding midfielders which they were inconsistent at.

Ugarte and Casemiro are being asked to do what they do best - hold the middle

So why are they being compared?
 
Both Casemiro and Ugarte seem to be much better midfielders than McTominay, so that's an instant upgrade on that combo as a whole. Of course that depends on Casemiro continuing his decent form this season and Ugarte continuing his form of the last few games. If they fall off then, as much as I was critical of Scott, they could end up being worse. Much like Matic and Pogba were in their last few seasons despite clearly being much better in their prime, or the likes of VDB.

Then because Scott was so limited, Fred ended up having to sit more than he should have and act as our deep playmaker, which highlighted his main flaws and reduced his strengths (at least until Rangnick and ETH came in and swapped their roles). Casemiro and Ugarte will hopefully be able to gel together as a partnership a lot more and play their natural games. But we'll also have Mainoo looking to play in there quite a lot as well so we'll be able to rotate a fair bit, along with Eriksen as well.

There's not a player alive that could have succeeded in that role that ETH asked Casemiro to play last season. He utterly set him up to fail in an insane system. The hope was always that once we went to a more sensible setup he'd recover some of the form he showed in his first season, and so far this season that appears to be the case. Obviously he is declining, but hopefully he can at least continue to be a good midfielder for the rest of his contract.
 
When you see Casemiros stats and obviously watch him play now, it’s no doubt that he is still a very good player. The tactics ten Hag used was not beneficial for Casemiro. Probably not beneficial for any of our players.
 
Ugarte and Casemiro are miles better than McTominay and Fred.

Why do we always do this? Why do we spend season after season lambasting players and then pine for them when they leave?

McTominay isn't a CM. He was a striker at youth level and he played CB at times in a back three for Scotland. The reason for this is that he can't play on the half-turn. To be an elite CM, you have to be able to do this. He's great when the games infront of him. He's great when he's running onto the game. His problems come when the game is behind him.

Fred was just far too erratic. You can't control games with a player like that. Never knew whether you were going to get a 10/10 performance or a solid 0/10
 
We used Casemiro in a system that didn't suit him, it's like criticising a fish for being poor on a mountain stage of the Tour de France. Put the structure around him, and let him play to his strengths and we'll get much more out of him.
 
Casemiro is ancient. Even if they are a good combo now, next season we need to find his replacement.
 
SuperiorXI said:
My feeling is that Casemiro was very exposed under ETH system, I think there is very few players in the world that could do that role. He looks much better in the system Ruud plays.
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ETH used him in his usual position first season, with Eriksen alongside him and filling in LB somewhat, that allowed Rashford to play as he did and have a great season. We were solid first half of the season and then limped along without playing particularly well for the back end. I think most people thought Case had been good and Eriksen until the injury had been great.

ETH clearly had some kind of a plan, which in hindsight seems pretty out there, which was extremely risky pressing despite not really having the right players in order to solve the problem of goals, but just meant we had to deal with being countered at whim. Many on here seem to think he should have abandoned this idea and just gone back to the double pivot but I disagree, United should not be hiring coaches whose grand plan is to setup in that manner and counter attack. Even though the end result was so volatile and awful to watch, I rate ETH for trying something tactically new and hope Amorim pushes for his 343 system as well. Case is old but very functional in a pair, he can also play in a three in my opinion but he is not the future of our midfield and I hope will be a functional and solid player (I can see Amorim playing him/Ugarte together a lot) this season before being replaced by someone much better in terms of mobility and ball retention.
 
golden_blunder said:
I don’t see the similarities at all. McFred was 2 players who were better going forward being asked to play as holding midfielders which they were inconsistent at.

Ugarte and Casemiro are being asked to do what they do best - hold the middle

So why are they being compared?
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Yeah good point.
 
golden_blunder said:
I don’t see the similarities at all. McFred was 2 players who were better going forward being asked to play as holding midfielders which they were inconsistent at.

Ugarte and Casemiro are being asked to do what they do best - hold the middle

So why are they being compared?
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Yes fully agreed, these last few games have been good because these two have the positional nous and discipline. It really shows that our "donut" midfield was a self imposed problem
 
tenpoless said:
Casemiro is ancient. Even if they are a good combo now, next season we need to find his replacement.
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I think we have his replacement in house, Flecther, Gore, (to name 2). They could be interfgrated into the team next season
 
Casemiro is on the edge of being too old and too slow. Some games he looks it, other games he gets away with it. He was great yesterday but he was still sticking in a lot of robust tackles and a lot of slide tackles and I think we are just lucky that Leicester players didn't act like they had been shot or he would have seen a card or more. Against top players he isn't quite quick enough any more and he compensates with rashness. You can almost guarantee that he will be seeing a few red cards in the PL as a result.

I love the guy and his passion and effort levels but his powers are on the wane and he needs replacing at the end of the season.
 
They're way better than Fred and McTominay as a central midfield pairing.

We now move to 3421 under Amorim so see who he pairs with Ugarte, my leaning would be Mainoo when fit.

Casgarte sounds South American or French to me, Ugamiro sounds Japanese.
 
Desert Eagle said:
Ist Casgarte/Ugamiro the new Mcfred?
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No. Both players are individually better than Fred or McTominay. Plus, Casemiro and Ugarte are really good off the ball. McFred were ok off the ball on good days, usually worse. Not a comparism really.
Desert Eagle said:
Or is it enough of an upgrade to have us challenging the top teams?
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I don't think so. What doesn't mean that this combination couldn't win us very important games here and there.
Desert Eagle said:
I'm of the camp that Casemiro is largely done as an elite footballer but giving him minimal responsibility and extra protection ( which also extends to other players like Bruno) could extend his career for a year or two.
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We should spend time thinking about how to extent careers at this point. We have to build a functioning unit and while Casemiro can be part of one right now, he certainly won't in the future. And he isn't worth tinkering any systems around to "extend his career". We can't allow ourselves only ever to look no further than next season, we have to think in 3 to 5 year cycles and that means we really have to ramp up the efforts to improve the midfield.
 
golden_blunder said:
I don’t see the similarities at all. McFred was 2 players who were better going forward being asked to play as holding midfielders which they were inconsistent at.

Ugarte and Casemiro are being asked to do what they do best - hold the middle

So why are they being compared?
Click to expand...
They'll likely be the holding midfield 2 just like Mcfred were. I think it's fair to compare and contrast even if most agree this new combination is superior.
NZT-One said:
No. Both players are individually better than Fred or McTominay. Plus, Casemiro and Ugarte are really good off the ball. McFred were ok off the ball on good days, usually worse. Not a comparism really.

I don't think so. What doesn't mean that this combination couldn't win us very important games here and there.

We should spend time thinking about how to extent careers at this point. We have to build a functioning unit and while Casemiro can be part of one right now, he certainly won't in the future. And he isn't worth tinkering any systems around to "extend his career". We can't allow ourselves only ever to look no further than next season, we have to think in 3 to 5 year cycles and that means we really have to ramp up the efforts to improve the midfield.
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I didn't mean to make extending Casemiro's career as some final goal but having a competent midfield base would go a long way to solving our structural issues. I think we agree that Casgarte can be a decent top 4 level midfield but still needs an upgrade in at least one but probably both positions to be top tier.
Lentwood said:
Ugarte and Casemiro are miles better than McTominay and Fred.

Why do we always do this? Why do we spend season after season lambasting players and then pine for them when they leave?

McTominay isn't a CM. He was a striker at youth level and he played CB at times in a back three for Scotland. The reason for this is that he can't play on the half-turn. To be an elite CM, you have to be able to do this. He's great when the games infront of him. He's great when he's running onto the game. His problems come when the game is behind him.

Fred was just far too erratic. You can't control games with a player like that. Never knew whether you were going to get a 10/10 performance or a solid 0/10
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Nobody is pining for Mcfred. I'm delighted they're both gone.
 
SuperiorXI said:
My feeling is that Casemiro was very exposed under ETH system, I think there is very few players in the world that could do that role. He looks much better in the system Ruud plays.
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I don't think even Rodri could have done what Casemiro was being asked to do
 
Desert Eagle said:
They'll likely be the holding midfield 2 just like Mcfred were. I think it's fair to compare and contrast even if most agree this new combination is superior.

I didn't mean to make extending Casemiro's career as some final goal but having a competent midfield base would go a long way to solving our structural issues. I think we agree that Casgarte can be a decent top 4 level midfield but still needs an upgrade in at least one but probably both positions to be top tier.


Nobody is pining for Mcfred. I'm delighted they're both gone.
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I don’t think it’s a comparable situation at all. Casemiro & Ugarte are like night and day compared to McFred and it’s not because they are superior players. It’d because Fred and McTominay were asked to do a job they weren’t ’qualified’ to do as in they weren’t ever holding players before.
Casemiro & Ugarte are promising together because that’s what they are, holding players.
This thread is built on nothing. A bit like an ETH midfield
 
Why are we comparing them to McFred? whats good about McFred? Casemiro alone has more trophies than McFred.
 
SuperiorXI said:
My feeling is that Casemiro was very exposed under ETH system, I think there is very few players in the world that could do that role. He looks much better in the system Ruud plays.
Click to expand...
Yeah. I couldn't understand the opinion or general consensus that he was washed up or 'declined' in the space of a few months. He went from being one of the best midfielders in the league and our best player in ETH's first 6 months when he was using a counter-attacking approach. His 'decline' coincided directly with when ETH tried to implement his transition approach and the start of basically a 3-1-6 in possession. It's not suited to Casemiro's profile whatsoever. It's also why we saw those reports about Casemiro being unhappy with ETH's tactics cause he felt left out to dry. Varane also fell out with ETH around the same time.

As you say, there are very few players who could probably make that role work. Mainoo also looked dreadful when he had to play there sometimes.
 
SuperiorXI said:
Not true

Giggs was still outpacing madrid players when he was nearly 40

Look at Kyle Walker, Arjen Robben etc

I could go on
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UnofficialDevil said:
Modric 39
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Sir Bobby.
In his prime at 31 years old when we won the European Cup in '68

Stanley Matthews....at the height of his career in his mid 30's through to his mid to late 40's


.
 
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tomaldinho1 said:
ETH used him in his usual position first season, with Eriksen alongside him and filling in LB somewhat, that allowed Rashford to play as he did and have a great season. We were solid first half of the season and then limped along without playing particularly well for the back end. I think most people thought Case had been good and Eriksen until the injury had been great.

ETH clearly had some kind of a plan, which in hindsight seems pretty out there, which was extremely risky pressing despite not really having the right players in order to solve the problem of goals, but just meant we had to deal with being countered at whim. Many on here seem to think he should have abandoned this idea and just gone back to the double pivot but I disagree, United should not be hiring coaches whose grand plan is to setup in that manner and counter attack. Even though the end result was so volatile and awful to watch, I rate ETH for trying something tactically new and hope Amorim pushes for his 343 system as well. Case is old but very functional in a pair, he can also play in a three in my opinion but he is not the future of our midfield and I hope will be a functional and solid player (I can see Amorim playing him/Ugarte together a lot) this season before being replaced by someone much better in terms of mobility and ball retention.
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This is where ETH got it wrong, he didn't have the players for what he was trying to execute but wasn't patient enough to go defensive until the pieces fell into place and also he and Murtough were fecking up recruitment that each summer spending took them a long way away from their intended destination.

If you look at the fullback he had inverting into midfield, more often than not he'd be no where to be found when the midfield was under pressure and usually found his own wing under attack. So what was the point? Then even if the press worked, you'd have Rashford and Bruno doing something to get the team immediately on the back foot and have Casemiro dealing with marauding opposing midfielders.

Even a Liverpool fan couldn't have dreamt up a worse system for us and the players we had.
 
Desert Eagle said:
Or is it enough of an upgrade to have us challenging the top teams?

I'm of the camp that Casemiro is largely done as an elite footballer but giving him minimal responsibility and extra protection ( which also extends to other players like Bruno) could extend his career for a year or two.
Click to expand...
I would think Mainoo will have one of those spots as soon as he's back. As he should, he's better than either of them.
 
AneRu said:
This is where ETH got it wrong, he didn't have the players for what he was trying to execute but wasn't patient enough to go defensive until the pieces fell into place and also he and Murtough were fecking up recruitment that each summer spending took them a long way away from their intended destination.

If you look at the fullback he had inverting into midfield, more often than not he'd be no where to be found when the midfield was under pressure and usually found his own wing under attack. So what was the point? Then even if the press worked, you'd have Rashford and Bruno doing something to get the team immediately on the back foot and have Casemiro dealing with marauding opposing midfielders.

Even a Liverpool fan couldn't have dreamt up a worse system for us and the players we had.
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I disagree, I can't really think of a time this has ever happened i.e. a manager has had a preferred way of playing but has needed to spend at least a season doing something else just to survive. All the managers who do well, come in and stamp their ideas onto the team and then recruit accordingly.

The first season, for me at least, was just proof that any half decent coach can spend £150m+ a year and setup a counter/double pivot system and compete for top4 - Mou, Ole, ETH all did it and all did fine with it, Mou and ETH even won multiple trophies but we were never close to the top teams.

I don't disagree the style did not suit the players, but I think it was best he stuck to whatever he was trying to do and failed than we just coasted along playing in a manner we know will never get us anywhere.
 
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