Is a fit in-form Jones ahead of Maguire?

Nytram Shakes said:
Your guessing he isn’t going to be as patient as Ole, Rangnick, and Southgate for that matter have all been with him. We don’t know that. dropping a captain is a huge deal with most managers only do as a last resort.

Plus he may not have much choice not of our others defenders are these blinding beacons of hope, Varane was injury prone and patchy when he played. And let’s not forget we paid a world record fee for Maguire because players like Bailly, Lindelof and Jones we’re struggling.

So the likely hood is Maguire starts most games at least next season.
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You're overrating the captain aspect. Maguire isn't really a bigger name than Rooney when he was dropped to the bench while being United's captain during his last season.

Maguire is a nobody when it comes to United and even among United's captains history and no manager is going to persist with him while he's costing the team just because he's wearing the armband or because he costed a lot.

The only logical thing in your post is if he has no other options than him but the armband or his fee isn't something a foreign manager like Ten Hag will care about. Again, Maguire isn't a bigger name than Rooney.

He'll be starter at the start of the season but only his form will determine what will happen next.
 
el3mel said:
You're overrating the captain aspect. Maguire isn't really a bigger name than Rooney when he was dropped to the bench while being United's captain during his last season.

Maguire is a nobody when it comes to United and even among United's captains history and no manager is going to persist with him while he's costing the team just because he's wearing the armband or because he costed a lot.

The only logical thing in your post is if he has no other options than him but the armband or his fee isn't something a foreign manager like Ten Hag will care about. Again, Maguire isn't a bigger name than Rooney.

He'll be starter at the start of the season but only his form will determine what will happen next.
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No if he is terrible again long term then he will dropped but captains always get more leeway then others players. If a captain is crap for a few games they will like keep there place.
Ten Hag is only gonna drop Maguire If he is really poor and other players look like they would do better.
Yes last season Maguire was crap but so where the rest of our centre backs. I don’t really anyone pushing Maguire out based on the form of our centre backs. Maguire is gonna get every chance to rebound from last season
 
Skills said:
Jones can't stay fit, but was a much, much bigger talent than Maguire.

Maguire's done really well for himself to get where he has considering what he's got to work with talent wise.
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Maybe that explains it. Jones was touted to become a class player from his teenage years. That debut season with Blackburn was really quite something. Potential unrealized, so I suppose we can't know how high his ceiling could have been.

Maguire on the other hand just worked his way through the ranks as a very good defender. I certainly don't recall him ever being hyped for potential the same way, neither at Hull not Leicester.

So the idea that Jones could still reach Maguires level now with some run of games is a lingering thought, maybe more fantasy and hoping than anything.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
Jones had bags of potential but you need to play games to realise potential. He hasn’t.

With that said, he’s still a pretty great centre half. Easily as good as the second string options at other clubs. He’s worlds better than Ake.

Maguire is a top tier centre half though. He had a stinker of a season but if last year was an anomaly, he’s streets ahead of Jones in 2022. He’s the player than Jones could have been had he stayed for for a career.
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Agreed for the most part. I think a Jones who managed less injuries had more natural talent than Maguire so would have been a better player. They'd be a good CB pair though. Not currently though.

An inform and fit 2022 Jones is currently only good enough to be a starter for a midtable team.
 
Redlyn said:
In which hes barely played full bodied matches. Being healthy week in week out is the test not being healthy drinking tea by the pool. Last time he was able to play about 8 matches before breaking down and disappearing for like 2 years.
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It's true he hasn't been playing. But, he remained healthy in training which is something new for Phil. There are examples of other players who were injured often for many seasons who found a bit of health later in their careers and performed as a result. It would be nice if Phil was one of those. He's got the character and the perseverance. I think we should give him a chance since we are paying him anyway. What have we got to lose? If he gets injured again we return to the many lesser options we have on the roster. But, if he does somehow remain healthy we have a very good player without having to pay another transfer fee.
 
I haven't seen him in the last two United training videos??
 
Maguire is twice the player of Jones, and also your question is very hypothetical. The good thing about Maguire compared to other CB's we have had in the past few years is that he is extremely reliable fitness wise for the most part. Jones doesn't deserve anymore chances.
 
I have no doubt that Phil Jones without his major injury issues during his career and therefor had gotten the minutes/experience to developed as a player would be a much better player than Harry Maguire. In that hypothetical situation Phil Jones would be the Manchester United captain and Harry Maguire would be playing midtable or top half football in the premier league.

However Harry Maguire, with all his limitations (and he has quite a few of those) is currently a better defender than Phil Jones when both are fit and in their normal form.
 
Rossa said:
The best we have seen of Jones is better than the best we have seen of Maguire in a United shirt. Maguire is certsinly prone to errors himself and is terrible in one on one situations.

Jones and injuries would always be his greatest foe.
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This is a perfect example of changing the past to suit the narrative.
The mistakes Jones used to make when he played were borderline criminal. In no way is he on the same level as Maguire.

Maguire has had one bad season. A season in which the entire squad were awful. I guarantee you will see the old Maguire in the upcoming season. A top class defender who will be a revelation under ten Hag.

As for Jones. I actually quite like him. The abuse he gets is unjust but he should have left the club many years ago.

Unfortunately he will go down as one of the clubs worst ever signings.
When his contract is up and he doesn't have Woodward there to give him a new deal he will struggle to get a new contract with any club in any league.
 
By ‘ahead’, I take it you mean ‘better than’? Because they are very different things. He is very unlikely to be picked ahead of Maguire for any sustained period regardless of form or fitness. The same applied to Eric Bailly last season. Maguire is the most expensive defender in the world, and club captain. So long as he’s playing anywhere above the level of a drunkard, he will always get to play, until he is sold, I suspect.
 
Zippycup said:
This is a perfect example of changing the past to suit the narrative.
The mistakes Jones used to make when he played were borderline criminal. In no way is he on the same level as Maguire.

Maguire has had one bad season. A season in which the entire squad were awful. I guarantee you will see the old Maguire in the upcoming season. A top class defender who will be a revelation under ten Hag.

As for Jones. I actually quite like him. The abuse he gets is unjust but he should have left the club many years ago.

Unfortunately he will go down as one of the clubs worst ever signings.
When his contract is up and he doesn't have Woodward there to give him a new deal he will struggle to get a new contract with any club in any league.
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I don't agree with the whole Jones narrative, its crazy.
However Maguire has been making crazy errors his entire time at United, not just one season
 
Cassidy said:
I don't agree with the whole Jones narrative, its crazy.
However Maguire has been making crazy errors his entire time at United, not just one season
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Nonsense
He had a bad season last year, yet it nowhere near as bad as some make out and he was far from being the worst defender.

He was superb for us in the previous seasons, especially in the 20/21 season.
 
Zippycup said:
Nonsense
He had a bad season last year, yet it nowhere near as bad as some make out and he was far from being the worst defender.

He was superb for us in the previous seasons, especially in the 20/21 season.
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He was making mistakes and bad ones in all those seasons
 
I am not quite sure what exactly are people discussing here. Both Maguire's first two seasons are still better than single Jones' season here, even in his best season here he wasn't certain starter in defence but Fergie rotated him in various positions, RB, midfield and CB.

I am not Maguire's biggest fan(he is good enough to be third choice for a top club, or a starter for a CL club at best, and should never be a captain for us, or for any club probably), and his last season was terrible, but Jones never in his life had a complete season without terrible mistakes in at least 1 our of 3-4 games, and not to mention that he was never reliable to build the team around anyway because of injuries, while Maguire is probably fittest CB we've had in last 20 years.
 
Zippycup said:
Come on.
You're letting last season blinker your vision of Maguires United career.
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Yes I am using his performance last season to point out his errors in the previous 2 seasons ok... :rolleyes:
No its not as if people only started pointing out his errors last season.
Anyway we agree to disagree, I didn't even say he was poor the previous seasons either, simply stated that making poor errors is something he has been consistently doing his whole United career not just last season (where he was shocking)
 
I like the idea of Jones putting pressure on Maguire to perform at a high level. And to be honest, we could do with a more rotation of our CBs. Maguire is 29 and looked at times last season like a player who just can't go twice a week, at least not 2x/week for months at a time. Varane appears to be in better overall physical condition when fit, but was injury-prone last season and, like Maguire, appeared to be rushed back 2-3 weeks too early last season.
 
Rozay said:
By ‘ahead’, I take it you mean ‘better than’? Because they are very different things. He is very unlikely to be picked ahead of Maguire for any sustained period regardless of form or fitness. The same applied to Eric Bailly last season. Maguire is the most expensive defender in the world, and club captain. So long as he’s playing anywhere above the level of a drunkard, he will always get to play, until he is sold, I suspect.
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It's a vague question trying to be mindful of form. I don't think these things are ever cut and dry so in this case it's me wondering whether there's enough potential in Jones that can be squeezed out to play regularly again for us. And if so, will that be enough to put him ahead of Maguire in bad form. Or maybe others see Maguire in ok form as being so good that it's very unlikely for Jones ever displacing him.

From the Jones side, I keep thinking back to the standout season he had with Blackburn. And for Maguire, the last one with Leicester before joining us. Might just be nostalgia but that Jones stood out as more promising for me and I'm biased from seeing a very very poor Maguire season in and out since he joined us.
 
Zippycup said:
Come on.
You're letting last season blinker your vision of Maguires United career.
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I don't think he is. Maguire's severe physical limitations (turning circle of an elephant, recovery speed of a snail) coupled with his hero mentality and propensity to step up when he doesn't need to, have always gotten him in trouble. The difference before last year was that his positive qualities (physical strength, aerial ability, leadership) created enough benefit that the negatives could be overlooked.

Maguire is always going to make mistakes. The question is whether the rest of his play makes up for it.
 
M Bison said:
Both players confidence is shot to bits. They’ve both been very good defenders in the past, but have both had problems albeit different issues.

I don’t think you can say Jones at his best is better than Maguire, Harry is coming off his worst season ever so is an unfair comparison.

Lets hope one of them can show their best form this season, will make a huge difference to our squad.
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The worst part is, a big reason why Harry's confidence is so low because he is constantly trolled and heckled by his own supporters. It's as if they don't want him to do well because that would prove them wrong...
 
I'm confident we'll see much better versions of Varane and Maguire this season. Last season it was impossible to be a CB in our team. Tactically we were absolutely all over the place, there was no intensity from the forwards or midfield players and no real plan for defending as a unit.

ETH will whip the forwards and midfield into shape, get us functioning as a team and we'll see that that will help the CBs massively
 
Bebe said:
I don't think he is. Maguire's severe physical limitations (turning circle of an elephant, recovery speed of a snail) coupled with his hero mentality and propensity to step up when he doesn't need to, have always gotten him in trouble. The difference before last year was that his positive qualities (physical strength, aerial ability, leadership) created enough benefit that the negatives could be overlooked.

Maguire is always going to make mistakes. The question is whether the rest of his play makes up for it.
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This simply isn't true.
He's had one bad season (as did everyone else in the team) and suddenly he's the worst defender at the club.

We have a much better win record when Maguire is in the team. You can't be as bad as you say and hold that record.

The amount of times Maguire was pulled out of position to try and cover for our full backs who couldn't be arsed running back was ridiculous. The social media attack on him has become so toxic that at one stage he was getting the blame for goals when he wasn't even playing.
As I said. ten Hag will get the best out of him.
 
Maguire wins for me, in the "fit and in-form Jones vs fit and in form Maguire" battle. Maguire is a better passer, better aerially, and both have similarly mediocre tackling and positioning abilities. I would go so far as to say Maguire is more disciplined than Jones...

Jones wins in scaring the opponent by making faces department, though.
 
pawanraj said:
Maguire wins for me, in the "fit and in-form Jones vs fit and in form Maguire" battle. Maguire is a better passer, better aerially, and both have similarly mediocre tackling and positioning abilities. I would go so far as to say Maguire is more disciplined than Jones...

Jones wins in scaring the opponent by making faces department, though.
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Concur. And Jones is better on heading the ball while lying on the floor.
 
Prehaps. I can see it aldo Maguire isnt our worst CB Lindelof is. But I have a sickening feeling Lindelof is going to weasel his way into the first 11 surviving the third permanent manager. Jones would be a better option that both if he was ever fit which isnt saying much
 
If Jones leaves United this summer where is he likely to go?
If Maguire was to leave where would he go?
 
quirkey said:
If Jones leaves United this summer where is he likely to go?
If Maguire was to leave where would he go?
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Both won't be leaving at their peaks, this thread is not about their current level.
 
roonster09 said:
Both won't be leaving at their peaks, this thread is not about their current level.
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But it is though? Look back at the OP; he literally said, and I quote, “if he (Jones) could find a swansong of fitness and form for a couple of seasons, I think he'd be one of our defensive mainstays. Does he get ahead of Maguire?”. Not sure where you are getting this idea of comparing them at their peak?

Oh, and the thread title is:
Is a fit in-form Jones ahead of Maguire?
 
pawanraj said:
Maguire wins for me, in the "fit and in-form Jones vs fit and in form Maguire" battle. Maguire is a better passer, better aerially, and both have similarly mediocre tackling and positioning abilities. I would go so far as to say Maguire is more disciplined than Jones...

Jones wins in scaring the opponent by making faces department, though.
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i wonder who is quicker and more agile. Jones his body must have been pretty ruined by injuries and Maguire never had any quickness or agility… who is more likely to stop a small, technical and fast attacker?
 
Is a fit, in-form [insert any player here] ahead of [insert different, massively out of form player here]? The answer is pretty much always yes.
 
Fit and in-form Baily, Varane, Lindelof, Jones and even Maguire himself are all better than Maguire.
 
Phil Jones’ performance’s were never as bad or as scrutinised as Maguire’s have been. Jones’ biggest problem was coming into matches way off match fitness due to repetitive injuries. It naturally had a knock on effect on his performances as he never got a run long enough to be sharp. There was a period where Jones and Rojo forged a solid partnership.

A fully fit Jones with no injuries was significantly better than Maguire has been.

Jones’s even bossed the midfield in the Bernabeu against a star studded Real Madrid.
 
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