Even as far as French players are concerned, I'd pick Henry over Zidane, and I'm old enough to have seen both their carreers in full length.
Iniesta vs Zidane
- Thread starter TheNewEra
- Start date
"A bit easier on the eye"? Like a Van Gogh compared to last night's kebab on the kerb.
Wouldn't say a level above them, but I agree that he was the better player of them three (and second only to Zidane). And while he dominated every midfield, he had the help of Iniesta, Busquets (and Alonso for Spain). Pirlo had Gattuso and Ambrosini for Milano, Gattuso and De Rossi for Italy. Good players, but nowhere near the quality of Xavi's teammates.
My top 5 of the past 15-20 years would be:
1) Zidane
2) Xavi
3) Pirlo
4) Iniesta
5) Scholes
with Redondo, Keane, Vieira, Lampard and Gerrard finishing the top 10. Kaka should be there too but in my opinion he should be considered more as a striker rather than a midfielder. Riquelme would have been in top 5 if his peak was longer.
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I'd take Effenberg over Scholes.
Ignoring current form, BFS should definitely be in that list somewhere.
Haven't seen a lot of him (same for Redondo) but from what I have seen, he was great.
I don't think that he was as good as any of those I mentioned.
you would, but I would rather take Roy Keane over Effenberg. but that is a totally different discussion.
As for the OP, if I wanted to build a team and I had to choose a superstar to help the team win a tournament I would probably lean towards Zidane but if I was to drop a midfielder into a team competing to win leagues and tournaments, I would say Iniesta.
I do feel overall that Zidane does get over-rated a bit and Iniesta under-rated.
At the same time, I prefer Zidane in that in some of the lower-profile matches, he used to play as if his brief was to entertain not just to win
Would pick him over Redondo, Viera, Lampard and Gerrard - he was the key player during Germany's world title campaigns 2006/2010 and arguably 2014 as well as Bayern's Champions League winning season 2012/13, at the peak of his power the best defensive midfielder in the world. But there's not much between the lot of them. I agree with your top 5 picks, though.
Iniesta is way more consistent. Zidane was simply Mr. Big Momment. Ill take zidane
Iniesta had plenty of big moments, with the WC winning goal and the one against Chelsea leaping immediately to mind. Both as vital as any of the special moments Zidane produced.
Messi is as good as a finisher if not better, better dribbler, better passer, more vision, less skill maybe but more technique I'd argue. Ronaldo comes 2nd to me for him. When we remember Messi's best moments in 10 years time, we'll be left baffled.
It's an exciting match-up. Their highlight reels on youtube are just off the charts. One gets a real sense of how powerless the opposition must have felt playing against them. There is a certain ruthless cunning that really sets them apart. To me, Messi trumps El Fenomeno in quantity, not in quality. That power and speed impress me just a little more. Personal preference I guess, but by no means am I trying to diminish Messi's achievement. Overall the best ever - only halfway through his carreer.
Zidane appeared as a real artist, that's true. But Iniesta is very elegant himself, not even close to being kerb kebab.
What big moments has Zidane shone in that Iniesta hasn't? Zidane's no-show in the final vs. Dortmund is much worse than anything I can remember from Iniesta in a final.
On the other hand I remember seeing Iniesta completely disappearing while Bayern eviscerated Barcelona in the semi finals.
Happens to the best of them. Javi Martinez and Schweinsteiger put in two of the most dominant performances I've ever seen to completely stifle them. It's more credit to Bayern, as they were able to do something nobody had done before them and why that team is also one of the best ever.
Both players big-game records are exceptional. If you extend it beyond finals and critical Champions League matches to major international tournaments, it would be fair to say Zidane's Euro 2000 was a cut above anything Iniesta has produced internationally. And that's even taking account of Iniesta's strong international record including a particularly good Euro 2012.
And needing Messi to come on and save them vs PSG. As did Zidane multiple times. No-one is trying to paint Iniesta as perfect in every big game though. Some people are doing that with Zidane.
Ah. Carry on then.
What about Bramble then?
Tier 1:
Xavi = Consistency throughout the season for about a decade (8+/10 performances week in and week out). Architect of not just 1, but 2 of the greatest teams of the modern era, maybe of all time - he was the midfield glue that held the structure together and made it function like a precision machine. Almost always showed up in the big games (not so much in terms of the productivity stat sheet or for the cameras, but in terms of overall influence). No one else could do what he did, with the efficiency he did it, and with the consistency with which he did it. Might just be the most fundamentally sound midfielder to ever play the game. Unfortunately, still a bit underrated because his superficial skills won't necessarily wow you (more of a ruthlessly effective Plain Jane) and the fact that he was not a glory hunter or media lion who liked to grab the headlines - and a lot of his success is attributed to the system Spain/ Barcelona employed.
Tier 2:
Zidane = Iniesta = Laudrup.
Zidane is a mythical figure (some even compare him with Le Roi which is a shame) - but a lot of times, it seemed like he could not be arsed; and it's not like he necessarily dragged Juventus to multiple Champions League titles when he had the chance either. However, he did raise his performances in a lot of the big games (more often than not - but not always); or made key goal-scoring contributions and that stick out in public memory - like that double at Stade de France, or the shimmering volley at Hampden Park. And he also has a reputation as an aesthetically pleasing entertainer/ showboater which earns him extra brownie points (not sure if that adds anything tangible to his body of work?). He was the type of player who would consistently take the mickey out of inferior players to show his superiority, which isn't always a good thing in the spirit of the game. Just in terms of his overall body of work, he was sidelined for the early parts of the 1998 World Cup, and raised his game at just the right time. People remember the 2006 World Cup as an example, and how Zidane's return from retirement uplifted France like a phoenix emerging from the ashes. But he was pedestrian at club level for about 3 seasons preceding that (his biggest contributions since the Champions League win with Madrid came in 2002/ 2003 where Nedvěd was a better player); Thuram (arguably the best defender in the tournament after Cannavaro) had returned to the international fold too, as had Makélélé - who was the best/ most effective defensive midfielder from that sort of 3-4 year window. But they don't get half the credit. Even in the finals in Germany - Henry, Ribéry, Vieira were extremely important for France. But a lot of the narrative reads like Zidane the demigod single-handedly dragged a rag-tag bunch to the final vs Italy. A lot of times, Zidane's value is a bit too overstated relative to his team-mates, which is slightly odd. Having said all of that, Zidane was an incredibly fierce competitor/ spiritual leader when the fire was lit under his bum against top tier opposition, and that parlayed into his aura/ mystique, which set him apart from a lot of his contemporaries - which is a credit to him. That's a quality David Beckham had too.
Iniesta was way more consistent than Zidane (though not as much as Xavi), his accomplishments at club and national level combined are superior to Zidane's, and he had plenty of highlight reel moments - that goal against Chelsea to send them through to the European Cup final, the goal against the Netherlands, and his performaces over multiple Champions League finals/ El Clásico fixtures. But because of the system Spain/ Barcelona employed, he wasn't given the freedom to improvise to the degree that Zidane did (Zinedine often had the luxury of playing as a floating playmaker with multiple defensive/ water carrier/ box-to-box midfielders setting the stage for him - Davids, Deschamps, Vieira, Makélélé and the likes). But Iniesta was a superior overall team player who pressed in a way Zidane never did, who played effectively within the structure of the team, and who was mindful of his defensive duties, apart from being a game raising cnut - and arguably the 2nd/ 3rd most influential player for Spain/ Barcelona. Not much separating Zidane from Iniesta to be honest; and also in terms of individual accomplishments - the FIFA World Player of the Year award was a sham - which Zidane won thrice. The old Ballon D'Or was more credible, and Zidane won it once in the World Cup year, and finished top 3 twice. Iniesta had never won the new Ballon D'Or but he did finish Top 3 twice; and he's playing in a time with Messi/ Ronaldo and their ridiculous goalscoring exploits. Zidane wouldn't sniff a lot of major individual award if he played in the same timeframe - plus he got lucky that Ronaldo suffered the convulsive fit in 1998, didn't find a lot of success at club level, was injured, and tailed off towards the end of his mid 20s unlike Cristiano and Messi who're going strong still.
Laudrup was as good as Zidane and Iniesta, but he has always been underrated because he didn't score that many goals, played for Denmark (had international success but not to the degree of the other two), and was more of a facilitator/ perfect team-mate - by and large.
Tier 2.5:
Redondo ~ Pirlo.
Tier 3.
Scholes. Maybe Tier 2.5? But he didn't have a lot of success at the international level like Pirlo did. Redondo didn't either if we compare the two, but he was just a slightly better player at club level, and individually IMO.
Xavi = Consistency throughout the season for about a decade (8+/10 performances week in and week out). Architect of not just 1, but 2 of the greatest teams of the modern era, maybe of all time - he was the midfield glue that held the structure together and made it function like a precision machine. Almost always showed up in the big games (not so much in terms of the productivity stat sheet or for the cameras, but in terms of overall influence). No one else could do what he did, with the efficiency he did it, and with the consistency with which he did it. Might just be the most fundamentally sound midfielder to ever play the game. Unfortunately, still a bit underrated because his superficial skills won't necessarily wow you (more of a ruthlessly effective Plain Jane) and the fact that he was not a glory hunter or media lion who liked to grab the headlines - and a lot of his success is attributed to the system Spain/ Barcelona employed.
Tier 2:
Zidane = Iniesta = Laudrup.
Zidane is a mythical figure (some even compare him with Le Roi which is a shame) - but a lot of times, it seemed like he could not be arsed; and it's not like he necessarily dragged Juventus to multiple Champions League titles when he had the chance either. However, he did raise his performances in a lot of the big games (more often than not - but not always); or made key goal-scoring contributions and that stick out in public memory - like that double at Stade de France, or the shimmering volley at Hampden Park. And he also has a reputation as an aesthetically pleasing entertainer/ showboater which earns him extra brownie points (not sure if that adds anything tangible to his body of work?). He was the type of player who would consistently take the mickey out of inferior players to show his superiority, which isn't always a good thing in the spirit of the game. Just in terms of his overall body of work, he was sidelined for the early parts of the 1998 World Cup, and raised his game at just the right time. People remember the 2006 World Cup as an example, and how Zidane's return from retirement uplifted France like a phoenix emerging from the ashes. But he was pedestrian at club level for about 3 seasons preceding that (his biggest contributions since the Champions League win with Madrid came in 2002/ 2003 where Nedvěd was a better player); Thuram (arguably the best defender in the tournament after Cannavaro) had returned to the international fold too, as had Makélélé - who was the best/ most effective defensive midfielder from that sort of 3-4 year window. But they don't get half the credit. Even in the finals in Germany - Henry, Ribéry, Vieira were extremely important for France. But a lot of the narrative reads like Zidane the demigod single-handedly dragged a rag-tag bunch to the final vs Italy. A lot of times, Zidane's value is a bit too overstated relative to his team-mates, which is slightly odd. Having said all of that, Zidane was an incredibly fierce competitor/ spiritual leader when the fire was lit under his bum against top tier opposition, and that parlayed into his aura/ mystique, which set him apart from a lot of his contemporaries - which is a credit to him. That's a quality David Beckham had too.
Iniesta was way more consistent than Zidane (though not as much as Xavi), his accomplishments at club and national level combined are superior to Zidane's, and he had plenty of highlight reel moments - that goal against Chelsea to send them through to the European Cup final, the goal against the Netherlands, and his performaces over multiple Champions League finals/ El Clásico fixtures. But because of the system Spain/ Barcelona employed, he wasn't given the freedom to improvise to the degree that Zidane did (Zinedine often had the luxury of playing as a floating playmaker with multiple defensive/ water carrier/ box-to-box midfielders setting the stage for him - Davids, Deschamps, Vieira, Makélélé and the likes). But Iniesta was a superior overall team player who pressed in a way Zidane never did, who played effectively within the structure of the team, and who was mindful of his defensive duties, apart from being a game raising cnut - and arguably the 2nd/ 3rd most influential player for Spain/ Barcelona. Not much separating Zidane from Iniesta to be honest; and also in terms of individual accomplishments - the FIFA World Player of the Year award was a sham - which Zidane won thrice. The old Ballon D'Or was more credible, and Zidane won it once in the World Cup year, and finished top 3 twice. Iniesta had never won the new Ballon D'Or but he did finish Top 3 twice; and he's playing in a time with Messi/ Ronaldo and their ridiculous goalscoring exploits. Zidane wouldn't sniff a lot of major individual award if he played in the same timeframe - plus he got lucky that Ronaldo suffered the convulsive fit in 1998, didn't find a lot of success at club level, was injured, and tailed off towards the end of his mid 20s unlike Cristiano and Messi who're going strong still.
Laudrup was as good as Zidane and Iniesta, but he has always been underrated because he didn't score that many goals, played for Denmark (had international success but not to the degree of the other two), and was more of a facilitator/ perfect team-mate - by and large.
Tier 2.5:
Redondo ~ Pirlo.
Tier 3.
Scholes. Maybe Tier 2.5? But he didn't have a lot of success at the international level like Pirlo did. Redondo didn't either if we compare the two, but he was just a slightly better player at club level, and individually IMO.
Yeah but what about Lampard?
Forgot someone who took the piss with both Scholes and Keane and dispatched the treble winners from the CL?
It's a shit list.
Big goals, big goals, big goals, argh. There's nothing between them when it comes to that, ffs.
1998 WC final brace.
Slap in the face of Leverkusen, that effin volley.
vs
2010 WC final winner.
Overbo massacre winner.
If anything, both of Ziz's moments trump Andres'.
Anyhow, will Andres ever produce something similar to what Ziz did to Brazil in 2006? No.
1998 WC final brace.
Slap in the face of Leverkusen, that effin volley.
vs
2010 WC final winner.
Overbo massacre winner.
If anything, both of Ziz's moments trump Andres'.
Anyhow, will Andres ever produce something similar to what Ziz did to Brazil in 2006? No.
Agreed with this but can't comment on Redondo. But I think Schweinsteiger belongs in the same category as Pirlo, or at least somewhere around there. I think Bayern 12/13 and Schweinsteiger's role in their dominance, exceeds anything Pirlo has done individually or been a part of.
I have no idea why you still beat this drum and think this is a valid argument. Every single great in the history of the game has been on the end of a drubbing, including arguably the greatest player ever (I'm talking about 2010 against Germany). The game against Bayern is actually one of the more excuseable results. Tito Vilanova was on cancer treatment in New York. Barca de facto prepared a third of a season without a manager. Jordi Roura, whose biggest accomplishment was getting a 3th division team relegated, ran the team to the ground until half the starting XI played on painkillers by April (Messi's injury is well known but Busquets for example was also injured and didn't start the return leg anymore once the tie was basically decided after the first leg, Bartra made his second or third appearence of the season in a CL semi-final, a defensive talent who even now doesn't make the bench ahead of Vermalen and Mathieu and Fabregas was playing as a striker). If you think all this has no impact and the 0-7 was a simpel case of a single player "not stepping up" I can't help you.
Whom?
Forgot someone who took the piss with both Scholes and Keane and dispatched the treble winners from the CL?
El Principe!
I had him in top 10 (actually I mentioned him first in that second list). I haven't seen as much from him as from the other players I mentioned though, so cannot judge exactly how he compares with other greats). Same for Laudrup.
Meh. He's laughing his way up that random list. Xavi and Zidane aside.
Schweinsteiger also. Ahead of pirlo and Scholes.
Having watched both in their prime Zidane is easily better(if we are talking peak here).
Since the 90's my top 3 in the #10 position is Laudrup, Zidane, Ronaldinho(in no particular order). Others are tier below.
Xavi, Redondo, Keane, Vieira are not playing in the same position so it's hard to compare them with the above ones.
For what is worth Redondo was Real's captain that brought them 2 La Liga's and 2 CL and was their best player at that time which says a lot. Even with the Galacticos they didn't reach the same height. Him and Xavi are ahead of Schweinsteiger, Keane and Vieira, who are ahead of Gerrard and Pirlo.
Since the 90's my top 3 in the #10 position is Laudrup, Zidane, Ronaldinho(in no particular order). Others are tier below.
Xavi, Redondo, Keane, Vieira are not playing in the same position so it's hard to compare them with the above ones.
For what is worth Redondo was Real's captain that brought them 2 La Liga's and 2 CL and was their best player at that time which says a lot. Even with the Galacticos they didn't reach the same height. Him and Xavi are ahead of Schweinsteiger, Keane and Vieira, who are ahead of Gerrard and Pirlo.
Fair point. But I just think that over the length of their careers, Pirlo is a wee bit better than Schweinsteiger, plus he excelled at both Milan and Juventus - that ability to be the primary midfield creator of two successful teams has to count for something. And, he did manage to do more with less at Euro 2012. Also, his performances in the 2006 World get a bit underrated because of Cannavaro and Buffon's heroics at the back. There were times where he was barely managing to hold the midfield together - and their overall midfield has been relatively poor throughout Pirlo's career in comparison with some of the other national teams. Fine margins, some might prefer Schweinsteiger - and there isn't anything wrong with that per se because Bastian was more industrious and versatile as a central midfielder, as opposed to Pirlo who could only function optimally in certain setups.
Relax, unlike other in other threads, for the most part I think Iniesta's accolades in this thread are well deserved. You won't hear a word from me disputing the fact that Iniesta generally does very, very well in the Big games.
I'd rank Scholes above Pirlo. Zidane above Iniesta. Don't think comparisons with Xavi are particularly useful -- two completely different players. Xavi was one of the all time greats, though; perhaps the best central midfielder of the last twenty years.
What's your argument for putting Redondo ahead of Keane? Keane has more league titles and his level of performance coming back from the cruiciate was phenomenal.
Simply put - he's better. His passing range and technical style made people who didn't see him all that often to think that he wasn't that sound defensively but that was not the case. For me he's one of the best CM/DM in the game along with Rijkaard and Matthaus.
Redondo easily overshadowed a peak Keane and Scholes midfield in 00 in 180 mins(both games). He was the main reason Real won CL in 00, as their team at that time was a real mess. Not only in terms of who they had among their ranks but also team spirit, atmosphere etc.
Redondo could do everything with the ball - excellent passer with a great range, excellent technique and read the game better than maybe anyone of his peers. Most of the time he was the sole CM in Real's midfield at the time. Captain and leader on the pitch. He really had the full package and as Capello put it tactically great player.
Keane didn't have the same technical qualities and his range of passing, also the same capability of starting attacks from the deep or even surging into the box. Unfortunately injuries ruined his career as soon he moved to Milan.
But if you have any doubts rewatch our games against Real when both teams clashed in the QF's and you'll see what I mean. They were both at their peak back then.
I think the same argument can be used for Zidane/Iniesta when it comes to league titles, consistency etc. However I don't think Iniesta is at the same level as Zidane. He should be at the tier below.
Ronaldinho/Laudrup/Zidane are my top three 10's in the last 20-25 years. I don't think there is someone in the same tier.
Yep. Redondo was probably the last of a type of complete, supremely gifted and elegant central/ defensive/ box-to-box midfielders that were incredible playmakers and passers as well - bit like Falcão. They don't make 'em like that anymore, which is a shame to be honest.
Yeah, then we had Gattuso, Makelele who were excellent destroyers but with limited game and now - maybe Busquets and Matic, etc..