Tottenhamguy
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Its an amazing coincidence that Silva is being compared to Pokémon and that he is to the suprise of many people Japanese heritage.
I never said that though. I said he was the main reason why they won all that they won, not the only reason.I understand but youre telling me that i cant claim Barca players were the dominant force for Spain then argue that it was all Messi that won the CLs? Surely you see the contrdiction?
Whilist we are talking about Mata and Silva we can't deny that the Valencia team that they played for with players like Villa/Joaquin/Vicente was a great team unfortunately broken up due to there financial and management issues.
Nobody says that, though. Nobody sensible at least. Messi needs his team mates and his team mates need him. It's a team sport and people forget that.I understand but youre telling me that i cant claim Barca players were the dominant force for Spain then argue that it was all Messi that won the CLs? Surely you see the contrdiction?
David Silva was and still is an outstanding player. Andres Iniesta is arguably the best player never to have won the Ballon D'or.
Rivaldo won La Liga, Spanish Cup, was probably the most singularly influential player in the Champions League, and was player of the tournament in winning the Copa America. He was miles ahead in the voting for good reason.Yeah arguably. However it was when Messi and Cristiano were around. I would say it’s understandable why he never.
Henry and Beckham missing out were mockeries of the award though. How Rivaldo won it over Beckham in 1999 was ridiculous.
Yeah agreed, he's up there while facing stiff competition from Xavi, Henry, Laudrup, Baresi, Rijkaard, Dzajic and Puskas (who would have won it earlier in his career had it existed).David Silva was and still is an outstanding player. Andres Iniesta is arguably the best player never to have won the Ballon D'or.
Rivaldo won La Liga, Spanish Cup, was probably the most singularly influential player in the Champions League, and was player of the tournament in winning the Copa America. He was miles ahead in the voting for good reason.
Yeah agreed, he's up there while facing stiff competition from Xavi, Henry, Laudrup, Baresi, Rijkaard, Dzajic and Puskas (who would have won it earlier in his career had it existed).
Him, Xavi, Suarez, Laudrup and Neymar.David Silva was and still is an outstanding player. Andres Iniesta is arguably the best player never to have won the Ballon D'or.
Yeah agreed, he's up there while facing stiff competition from Xavi, Henry, Laudrup, Baresi, Rijkaard, Dzajic and Puskas (who would have won it earlier in his career had it existed).
Far from it.David Silva was and still is an outstanding player. Andres Iniesta is arguably the best player never to have won the Ballon D'or.
They were without Muller, and the game was ultimately close, despite spain's territorial and possession dominance(which anyways was fine for germany which was mostly a transition and counterattacking side). For all the dominance Spain still needed San Iker to win the world cup
Also no, they weren't the most dominant national side ever. That title belong to either 1970 Brazil, or the Pelé-Garrincha sides, unbeaten in over 60 games
Its an amazing coincidence that Silva is being compared to Pokémon and that he is to the suprise of many people Japanese heritage.
Matthaus, Van Basten, Ronaldo, Zidane, Ronaldinho were definitely better.Seeing as the Ballon d'Or was mentioned, a slightly different question.
These are all the Ballon d'Or winners since 1990 who aren't Messi or Cristiano Ronaldo:
Matthaus, Papin, Van Basten, Baggio, Stoichov, Weah, Sammer, O.G. Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Zidane, Figo, Owen, Nedved, Shevchenko, Ronaldinho, Cannavaro, Kaka, Modric.
Of those players, who would you say were definitely better than Iniesta, who were definitely worse and who (if their peak years have overlapped) would he have been neck and neck with in your opinion?
Whaaaat
There are definitely some more. But if we limit it to Spanish players it is close between him, Xavi and Villa.David Silva was and still is an outstanding player. Andres Iniesta is arguably the best player never to have won the Ballon D'or.
Beckham won the PL and FA Cup which even out against the domestic Barca honours. Yes Rivaldo contributed to a lot more goals but he was playing as a CAM/Second Striker, not a right sided midfielder.
Most influential player in the CL? 6 games 3 goals 3 assists, Beckham 10 games 2 goals 8 assists. Not to mention his corners both led to goals in the final which are not counted as assists. So basically involved in 12 goals in 10 games in the CL.
Barcelona didn’t even get out of the group stage so I don’t know what you are even talking about regarding most influential in the CL.
Seeing as the Ballon d'Or was mentioned, a slightly different question.
These are all the Ballon d'Or winners since 1990 who aren't Messi or Cristiano Ronaldo:
Of those players, who would you say were definitely better than Iniesta, who were definitely worse and who (if their peak years have overlapped) would he have been neck and neck with in your opinion?
Bolded = betterMatthaus, Papin, Van Basten, Baggio, Stoichov, Weah, Sammer, O.G. Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Zidane, Figo, Owen, Nedved, Shevchenko, Ronaldinho, Cannavaro, Kaka, Modric.
Of those players, who would you say were definitely better than Iniesta, who were definitely worse and who (if their peak years have overlapped) would he have been neck and neck with in your opinion?
Bolded = better
Italics = neck and neck
Plain text = worse
What works against Iniesta for me is that he was never really the best player on his teams. Even in his best performances he was always part of a greater whole, and never his team's main man. Most of those other guys on the other hand had to carry their teams to success
Green = betterSeeing as the Ballon d'Or was mentioned, a slightly different question.
These are all the Ballon d'Or winners since 1990 who aren't Messi or Cristiano Ronaldo:
Matthaus, Papin, Van Basten, Baggio, Stoichov, Weah, Sammer, O.G. Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Zidane, Figo, Owen, Nedved, Shevchenko, Ronaldinho, Cannavaro, Kaka, Modric.
Of those players, who would you say were definitely better than Iniesta, who were definitely worse and who (if their peak years have overlapped) would he have been neck and neck with in your opinion?
Green = better
Red = worse
Black = too close to call
Seeing as the Ballon d'Or was mentioned, a slightly different question.
These are all the Ballon d'Or winners since 1990 who aren't Messi or Cristiano Ronaldo:
Matthaus, Papin, Van Basten, Baggio, Stoichov, Weah, Sammer, O.G. Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Zidane, Figo, Owen, Nedved, Shevchenko, Ronaldinho, Cannavaro, Kaka, Modric.
Of those players, who would you say were definitely better than Iniesta, who were definitely worse and who (if their peak years have overlapped) would he have been neck and neck with in your opinion?
I agree with most of your post until you got to Sammer.Interesting question.
I dunno, but definitely better would be Matthäus, Van Basten and Fat Ron. Others on that list are also better, in my opinion, but not a case of being definitely better (if by that term we understand a difference in so-called tiers).
Definitely worse would be Owen, Papin and Weah. Again, at least a couple more are worse in my opinion, but it's much closer and not a definite, obvious difference.
ETA
As for the tighter ones, it's hard to say (and one has to factor in multiple things) - but I'd put like so: I would never rank these players below Iniesta: Baggio, Stoichkov, Dinho. And I would probably not rank these players above him: Figo, Sheva, Kaka, Modric, Cannavaro, Rivaldo.
Impossible to call: Zidane, Nedved, Sammer.
Summed up: Iniesta would place somewhere between 7th and 10th on that total list - for me.
I agree with most of your post until you got to Sammer.
Bizarre call
I don't disagree, but on the other hand playing with Messi(and Xavi, and Neymar and Suarez) made it a lot easier for him as well, and lead to winning a lot of trophies. He had a big impact on those too, of course, he's an all time greatConsidering he was teammates with Lionel Messi for over a decade, I think this is a ridiculously harsh criteria
Which team did Kaka carry? Milan had the best midfield in the world at the time. The whole "carry" and "lead man" stuff is so clichéd.Bolded = better
Italics = neck and neck
Plain text = worse
What works against Iniesta for me is that he was never really the best player on his teams. Even in his best performances he was always part of a greater whole, and never his team's main man. Most of those other guys on the other hand had to carry their teams to success
CL '07Which team did Kaka carry? Milan had the best midfield in the world at the time. The whole "carry" and "lead man" stuff is so clichéd.
I'd pick Iniesta. Incredible footballer.CL '07
But yeah, not sure about Kaka being definitively better. Just, well, if i had to pick one of them to be the best player on my team, i'd go with the guy who has history of being good in that role, versus the guy who never had to be in that role. Still, i guess i'm a bit sentimental about Kaka and Sheva....
The fact that Silva was displaced wasn't reflective of him being a weak link, so much as it was him being obsolete. They didn't need Silva as they already had more than enough finesse in the side, they needed Pedro's directness.Iniesta was much better. I'd argue Silva was one of the weaker links of that 2010-2012 Spain teams (got displaced by Pedro in 2010) while Iniesta was probably their best player in both of those tournaments (I'd give 2010 to David Villa though).
To put it simply:
Charmander -> Charmeleon -> Charizard
Mata -> Silva -> Iniesta