I'll always like him for the fact that in the greatest moment of his career, a moment he could've rightly made all about himself, he had that tribute to the late Dani Jarque under his Spain shirt.
Iniesta - Is there another? | Announces retirement
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No, I agree on that. Though I feel Iniesta would have the edge in dribbling. Generally I just feel Iniesta is a tad overrated in the sense that he's a sort of in-between of Xavi and Messi but without the key importance of either (control for Xavi, incisiveness for Messi). He's the man for the big moments though. And of course he's an integral part of what Barcelona and Spain have achieved over the past couple of seasons, but I think his greatest claim to fame in the future will have been his importance to Spain moreso than to Barça where he is more obviously outshone (rightfully or wrongfully) by Xavi and Messi.
Either way I'm glad he won the Best Player in Europe award in 2012, that was deserved.
Couple of seasons? 
And I think you grossly understate Iniesta's value to Barcelona. Even evidenced by this season, Iniesta as much as Messi has been responsible for whatever good form the team has had regardless of goals or assists. Iniesta is the space maker and opens up the pitch with that ability to weave through those blocks of 4
And I think you grossly understate Iniesta's value to Barcelona. Even evidenced by this season, Iniesta as much as Messi has been responsible for whatever good form the team has had regardless of goals or assists. Iniesta is the space maker and opens up the pitch with that ability to weave through those blocks of 4
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I agree with all of that, Iniesta is a fantastic player and a joy to watch when he's on form. One of the rare Spanish players who gets applauded in almost every away stadium when he gets subbed off.
They're of the same size too.
The dude has Zidane's knack for snatching big momments
If Mata will return to his brilliant form and will manage to emulate at some point that cunning style full of vision and wise movement, then as a club, we're good people !
Xavi and Iniesta will hold Barca above the football abyss for more years. Guaranteed.
Xavi and Iniesta will hold Barca above the football abyss for more years. Guaranteed.
Spot on. Won't be surprised to see them once again winning CL with that kind of talisman.
Couple of seasons?
And I think you grossly understate Iniesta's value to Barcelona. Even evidenced by this season, Iniesta as much as Messi has been responsible for whatever good form the team has had regardless of goals or assists. Iniesta is the space maker and opens up the pitch with that ability to weave through those blocks of 4
Well, I didn't literally mean a couple (as in 2), just since 2008 basically. And yes, I'm aware that he had already anounced himself very well in 2006. My point is that I don't think anyone can honestly say Iniesta was one of the 2 most important players in that ultra dominant era for the club, 2008-11. Maybe most will disagree, but I think it could at least be argued that Dani Alves (and Busquets in 2011) was a more important cog in that team's success than Iniesta. Either way I don't feel it's as clear cut as it is for Spain: there him and Xavi were quite clearly the dominant men in the 2010 WC and 2012 Euro.
The thing with Iniesta is that he's been a stand-out performer very often in the big games, but those are in the end just moments when seen as part of an entire season. Vital moments of course, but I feel that Messi, Xavi, Dani Alves and Busquets have shown those same moments too, while performing to a similar standard throughout the entire season as well. Don't know I can really claim that of Iniesta... Maybe that has to do with his frequent injuries? Maybe he doesn't have that same kind of consistency to stand-out and is more satisfied with keeping a low profile (or just strictly adhering to his "job") until a big game comes up?
By the way, this is all relative to all-time greats in the vein of Laudrup, Zidane, etc. that were being mentioned earlier. Obviously he's one of the greatest of this era, I'm just musing about how he stacks up against former greats and within Guardiola's Barça in an all-time context.
According to many Iniesta was difference in 2009 CL Final
He was. He was the one that completely tore us apart in that game more than anyone else. Our midfield hasn't been great for years but that has to be the single most dominant performance against it if ever seen against it.
As I've said, he's one of my favorite players of this generation. But I do wonder if the lack of being the main man and putting up big numbers does hurt his standing. Of course messi is always going to be the focal point in any team, but insista's end product is well below what a player like him should be getting. I think even xavi was at one point putting up incredible numbers for assists so it's not like the two of them just have to be the ones who "assist the assister".
Didn't SAF say Guardiola and Iniesta made Barcelona? I certainly remember him saying Iniesta was the danger they were paying the most attention to before one of the CL finals as he was the one that made the team work. Pretty sure some of our other players also confirmed that they had focused on nullifying Iniesta (not that it stopped him from being their key player). Also interesting to note that Rooney proclaimed Iniesta the best player in the world after one of those finals, so it seems they certainly saw him as massively influential.
Football is about opinions and all that but there's absolutely no way Busquets and Alves were more important to Barca than Iniesta imo. I wouldn't place Laudrup ahead of him either, though obviously I've seen far less of Laudrup tbf.
I'd be interested to see all our resident Barca fans' opinions on this. How important was Iniesta when compared to the likes of Busquets and Alves? Does Iniesta really lack the consistency they demonstrated? How does he compare to Laudrup? I might be wrong but I suspect they're more likely to fall on my side of the argument.
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He's clearly a better dribbler than Laudrup.
Jesus, only a ginger englishman can make Iniesta look tanned!
No way, watch this clip to see that he's a much better dribbler than Iniesta (my favorite is 01:11 perfect body feint)
There isn't much of a difference really, just superficial factors that influence how you view them. Iniesta is much shorter than Laudrup so that obviously influences his COG and step. Iniesta's got shorter legs which is why his dribbling tends to be shorter in comparison to someone like Laudrup who took longer strides on the pitch. Laudrup's faster, notably faster at full speed but the pace of the game was slower two decades ago which plays a big part.
I don't think you can say one of them is "much better" at dribbling than the other. IIRC Iniesta loves Laudrup, he ripped the croqueta off him as well. I wonder who Laudrup copied the move from as well...would be interesting to know how most of the popular tricks in football were developed and who started them.
I don't think you can say one of them is "much better" at dribbling than the other. IIRC Iniesta loves Laudrup, he ripped the croqueta off him as well. I wonder who Laudrup copied the move from as well...would be interesting to know how most of the popular tricks in football were developed and who started them.
I think Iniesta was the better dribbler. Laudrup was a better player though and he's one of my all time favourites.
It still pains me that we fecked up the Laudrup deal by changing his contract at the last minute.
It still pains me that we fecked up the Laudrup deal by changing his contract at the last minute.
And... this is supposed to negate everything I've questioned about him? It's not even something that I've denied. I specifically made the point that he usually shows up for the big appointments (and it should be noted that Barça as a whole showed up equally well in the both CL Finals, apart from the first 10 minutes), but one of my points of contention is that he's not known for producing such performances with any great consistency throughout the rest of the season.
This is another point that should be noted when discussing Iniesta. His part in Barça's system is undeniably important (but then so are plenty of others, like Xavi, Busquets, Dani Alves) and his contributions in retaining and regaining possession are invaluable, his work in the build-up very often phenomenal because of his superior close control and dribbling skill. It's the end phase where he's a bit spotty. The season you are referencing for Xavi was 2008/09 when he had 20+ assists (don't have the exact numbers but it's insane, something like 20 in the league alone and 7 in the CL) and that was quite probably one of the best seasons ever of any CM in club football history. Xavi combined everything he usually does and added unseen "end product" which is even more remarkable given his position and role. The reason I bring this up is that I feel Iniesta's passing and playmaking ability (in the traditional sense of a #10) is somewhat overstated when compared to the likes of Laudrup, Platini, Zidane, van Hanegem, etc. It's nowhere near as consistent and he's had an amazing roll call of forwards to feed in his career... Messi, Eto'o, Villa, Henry, Ronaldinho, Pedro, Torres, etc.
As @FCBarca mentioned though, his playmaking is expressed differently, through freeing up space with quick one-touch passing or his amazing small space control and dribbling ability. In that respect he's certainly a match or even better than those all-time greats I listed IMO. His passing isn't really on that same level, I feel. In certain areas yes, but it's a more limited range and "shorter" vision.
Well, my feeling is this, in its most simplistic form: pre-Guardiola, Messi was the injury-plagued dribbling wide forward wonderkid, post-Guardiola he's a contender for all-time top-5 status. Xavi went from being a "failed" Guardiola understudy who eventually fell behind Deco in importance to one of the greatest CMs in history whose control of games has been unprecedented. Dani Alves's role in Guardiola's system was incredibly key, he joined an uninspired Barça that had finished 3rd the year before and immediately settled into Guardiola's plans as one of its key components because of his ability to dominate his flank to such a ridiculous extent (e.g. in 2010/11 he had the 3rd most assists in La Liga, just 3 behind Messi and 2 behind Özil). Iniesta went from being the highly technical build-up specialist who dominates in the big games (2006 CL Final) to being... uh, the highly technical build-up specialist who dominates in the big games (two more CL Finals + a WC and a Euro Final). Like I said it's a simplistic way of putting it, but out of these 4 players Iniesta is IMO the one whose impact hasn't gone up in the same exponential way as the others' pre- and post-Guardiola.
Busquets and Iniesta would probably be comparable in terms of importance to me. They're not really far away from Alves anyway, my point is that it's more arguable to put Iniesta as 3rd-5th most important than as 1st-2nd most important.
re: Laudrup comparison, you might be right that most Barça fans will agree with you, but then this isn't really the sort of thing that they can look at objectively while Iniesta's still playing for them, now is it?
Iniesta's main role in terms of end-product is finding through-balls almost exclusively slightly wide - which gets played infront of goal and results in goals. Iniesta gets no assists or goals for these, but if anything he was the playmaker and creator of this goal.
That is what he excels at, which is why he doesn't have the most impressive figures. Also he isn't a number 10, he is an offensive/creative CM.
So his numbers should be compared to others in that role, in which case his numbers are actually impressive. Still of course if your maybe greatest skill in terms of end-product is finding through-balls to players who make off-the-ball runs then you will always lack assists/goals. Considering Barcelona always faces low-defenses, so a run behind the defense almost always demands a pass side-ways to end up in a goal.
Goals and assists doesn't matter one bit though, even in Xavi's best season it was noticeably less end-product in the team whenever Iniesta wasn't there.
That is what he excels at, which is why he doesn't have the most impressive figures. Also he isn't a number 10, he is an offensive/creative CM.
So his numbers should be compared to others in that role, in which case his numbers are actually impressive. Still of course if your maybe greatest skill in terms of end-product is finding through-balls to players who make off-the-ball runs then you will always lack assists/goals. Considering Barcelona always faces low-defenses, so a run behind the defense almost always demands a pass side-ways to end up in a goal.
Goals and assists doesn't matter one bit though, even in Xavi's best season it was noticeably less end-product in the team whenever Iniesta wasn't there.
I'd disagree here as well, we see longer passes less (But not completely) simply because he plays higher up the pitch where he can help an already camped out attack
I think you have this pretty close to spot on, apart from ranking their importance/improvement. I wouldn't, at all, rank Iniesta #4 in that group and I'd say you've discounted the change Iniesta has made to La Roja. He used to be subbed out early in matches for Cazorla, Cesc, Silva etc. but that happens very rarely in key matches. Iniesta remains one of the most essential players on the pitch at the end of a match, for both club & country. Plus, I think you discount that quality of being able to make the difference or score the goal in the dying moments in the biggest matches - that's a quality only the legends of the game could consistently conjure
Alves, I too know how instrumental he's been to Barcelona's success and like few on the caf perhaps, I remember the Sevilla Alves too. He was a beast, I can't recall a more intimidating fullback in their prime
Laudrup is a legend as is Iniesta, for me. I couldn't/wouldn't rate one above the other. Iniesta has been fortunate to win much more than the Dane but true Barca fans wouldn't ever count that against him - Andres has simply benefited from higher skilled teammates.
I do enjoy the way both of them talk about the other, you can see the twinkle in their eyes as if they're looking into some sort of mirror
I agree for the most part, but then the focus on end product was only relevant in an all-time context. Let's put it this way, what would be easier? Replacing one of Messi/Xavi or Iniesta? Iniesta or Alves?
There are a couple of players out there who could fullfil his role as you've described it adequately enough IMO, a David Silva, an Isco, maybe even Cazorla (not to the same competency of course); but who could do the same for Messi or Xavi? Or even Alves 2008-11?
I don't disagree. I am playing in the fantasy draft and I got Busquets and Xavi first as I think Iniesta is replaceable to a certain degree.
Xavi and even Busquets are unique in their possession keeping though so replicating their style without Xavi/Busi is impossible. While replicating it albeit with a skill-drop is no issues without Iniesta.
I did adress that in an earlier post where I specifically made that distinction between Iniesta for club and country. For me he's at most 3rd key player (and arguable 3rd-5th wrt Alves/Busquets roles) at Barça, but equally important as Xavi for Spain!
I didn't mean to make it sound like his big game penchant is a nothing achievement, because indeed it's a special quality. Although I'm slightly wary of him and for example Zidane being singled out as "big game players" (which they indeed are) when there isn't that much of a difference with some other players who aren't characterized as such for some reason (but also are big game players IMO).
Showed up again tonight. Took up the mantle for Barcelona once they fell behind, and produced a superb assist for the equalizer.
Made much more of a difference once Cesc came off and he could drop back into midfield. Should start Neymar & Alexis to pair with Leo at the Calderon
Makes me cream my panties. Best player of his generation.
That fecking pass is out of this world and he produces shit like that all the time. Incredible player.
Aye, he has mastered it
Great pass, so stylish.
That pass for the goal. It's the best I've seen all season. He took out the whole defense and midfield. feck. There is no player in the Premier League with that sort of vision.
nothing overly impressive about that pass. i think messi does 50 of those passes a season under physical pressure from defenders on his back as well.
iniesta has played some better passes in the previous games, just that you guys don't notice them since they're in the league. no need to overplay this one. it's a really nice pass, not worth much more praise then that.
iniesta has played some better passes in the previous games, just that you guys don't notice them since they're in the league. no need to overplay this one. it's a really nice pass, not worth much more praise then that.
How he weighted that pass - utterly ridiculous.
See? This is what grinds my gears
Ridiculous pass.
Bypassed two blocks just like that. And the weight itself allows Neymar to shoot on the first touch.
Bypassed two blocks just like that. And the weight itself allows Neymar to shoot on the first touch.
More importantly this great pass in an assist, Iniesta may be delivering several of them in the league but as an assist, that kinda passing takes another dimension.
That pass was much greater than you make it sound. It was in the midst of an ultra high pressure game when Atletico were leading.
But what I wanted to say here is that Iniesta tonight proved yet again why he is such a mega player, and especially in big matches. His overall performance was 10/10, utter and sheer class, poise and workrate. I have been saying for aeons that Andres Iniesta is superior to Zidane. For anyone doubting this claim, I can cite several big game performances by him with Barca and Spain.
He is definitely THE clutch player of world football, and the silkiest one at that. Tonight he was nothing short of epic.
Class pass and he does that regularly. I cant think of a player that is better at splitting a defence than him so regularly atm.
Very nearly scored the 2nd goal were it not for a great save from Courtois - what a beauty of a shot though