Impossible Draft QF - Indnyc vs Charly

Who will win this draft match?


  • Total voters
    26
  • Poll closed .

Edgar Allan Pillow

Ero-Sennin
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
42,037
Location
┴┬┴┤( ͡° ͜ʖ├┬┴┬
c4kJtQB.png
VS
abPNkdMagZ.png

.......................... TEAM INDNYC ................................................... TEAM CHARLY .........................


TEAM INDNYC

GoalKeeper

Rene "El Loco" Higuita : - One of Columbia's greatest players, he was the epitome of a ball playing goalkeeper. He was incredibly consistent and part of the best Columbian teams of the 1980's and 1990's

The Defense

Full Backs: Ruud Krol and Lilian Thuram

Rudd Krol and Lilian Thuram are perfect players to have when dealing with 2 great wingers in Hamrin and Dzajic. Both full backs have strong defensive pedigree and will deal with the wingers from the opposition. This is where my opposition is strongest and will go up against two of my best players

Krol is given a bit more license to join the attack to overlap with Pedernera though it doesn't mean he is going to be constantly attacking and not defending.

Central Defenders

Domingos da Guia is regarded as one of the best Brazilian defenders of all time. He was a lynchpin in Brazil's defence during their World Cup showing in 1938, as he helped his nation finish third at the tournament hosted in France. He was voted the best player in the 1945 Copa America. He was comfortable on the ball and will be my ball playing defender

Billy Wright here is playing the role of a stopper and will complement Da Guia perfectly. As a pure stopper there are few who are unquestionably better than him. Wright was came second in a Ballon D'or vote. He was dominant in air with a prodigious leap and faced some of the all time greatest header in his career with consistently playing and holding his own against the likes of Lofthouse, Lowtawn & Charles.

Midfield

Zito - A strong, commanding and influential midfielder, known for his leadership, Zito serving as a defensive foil to his more offensive minded teammates. An intelligent and highly organised player, he was known for his ability to win back possession with his tackling, and subsequently set the tempo in midfield through his movement off the ball and precise passing. He was the one man engine in the great Brazil team of 1958 and 62, allowing his well known attacking teammates to shine. He's also very good technically, especially in his short passing game and could retain possession very well and participate in the build up play.

Graeme Souness – The greatest midfielder to play for Liverpool and arguably the most important cog in their glory years. He is the perfect foil for Zito in this midfield and together they will shield the defense and link midfield to attack. Souness will be playing a B2B role similar to what he played for Liverpool. He'll have some more license to join the attack and link up with my attacking players

Attack

Jan Ceulemans – Pace, power, technical ability and goals, should make a stunning partnership with Fontaine and Pedernera. He is arguably Belgium’s greatest player of all time and fired them to the 1980 Euro Finals.

Adolfo Pedernera – “El Maestro” was widely considered to be one of the greatest footballers in the world in the 1940’s. He played as an inside forward and was one of the early pioneers of the false nine. His partnership with Loustau on the outside left wing was devastating for the greatest River Plate team known as “la Manquina”. Prolific goal scorer and creator, he will orchestrate my attacks along with Ceulemans and drag opposition players out of position

Varela said:
"Obdulio, are you frightened of the Brazil forwards?" asked the journalists of Uruguay midfielder Obdulio Varela ahead of the final and decisive match of the 1950 FIFA World Cup Brazil™

“Frightened?” came the reply. “I’ve played against Adolfo Pedernera and there’s nobody like him.”

Sir Tom Finney: Right winger position is occupied by Legendary Sir Tom Finney. One of England's greatest player ever and a gem of a winger who can play in all attacking positions,Sir Finney was a great dribbler. He'd be playing as an orthodox winger on the right side, providing width and crossing

Just Fontaine - Just Fontaine was the most prolific scorer in the Europe in the late 1950s. He was a classic forward with ability to score from any angle, with both feet and his head. He leads the line here and with support from Pedernera, Ceulemans, and crosses from Sir Tom Finney i expect him to get a lot of chances to score

View on Opposition

Very strong team with Djazic, Hamrin, Koscis giving my defense a run for their money. I do feel my defense is as strong and capable of handling that attack. Would be interesting to see how the team fits with Mazzola and Sivori together.

TEAM CHARLY:

I am playing similar to the last round, my squad is setup in a 4-2-3-1 formation with focus on wing play and direct attacking. I am not too fussed about the possession and try to move ball quickly with a quick counter attacking threat as well.

The attacking quartret of Dzajic - Kocsis - Sivori - Hamrin is one of the best in the draft. Dzajic-Hamrin is a blistering wing partnership that can put crosses to meet the "golden head" Kocsis as well as play intricate 1-2s with Sivori and score on their own.

In center we have the legendary valentino Mazzola as the main playmaker of the team. I feel his positioning is probabaly going to cause some debate so I would try and address it here. For a player which I never seen play or find any videos I am going to try and put as many sources as possible.

Mazzola -
First off, he is replacing Van Hanegem who is a very similar player to Mazzola. He played deeper in national team to accomodate Cruyff but in his club career he was playing the same positions as Cruyff that is of an advanced playmaker. He was more tenacious and possessed good tackling and work rate (All of which is true for Mazzola as well) which allowed him to ply his trade deeper.

Secondly by all accounts Mazzola was a uniquely versatile player adapt in playing in all positions in a football field. He was hard working, a good tackler but most of all a playmaker.

"He alone is half the squad. The other half is made by the rest of us together.” - Mario Rigamonti

"Already a fine midfielder, Mazzola was blooming into what we might call today a box-to-box midfielder, with the ability to also play in the centre-forward position. So versatile was his game that he could virtually play in any position on the field, even goalkeeper." - thesefootballtimes

"Not only that but Mazzola could also be considered to be one of the most complete football players of all time. Rarely has a player combined such finesse, determination, spirit and magnificent footballing ability to the effect that the Torino captain did" - forzaitalianfootball.com

"he was a player who could carry the whole team and was the greatest Italian player of all time" - World Cup winning coach Enzo Bearzo


Finally the role that I want him to play is not overly defensive, while as a midfielder he'll do his duty but his job as my playmaker is to get the balls to attackers either by passing or dribbling himself. A sort of David Silva role for Man City or Pogba role for us. I feel V. Mazzola is quite perfect for the role.

His defensive partner Nestor Rossi is instructed to stay back all the time and be disciplined and focus on breaking up the play.

My fullbacks are playing in a support role, not overly attacking and responsible to run the wing by themselve as they have great wingers in front of them, but still responsible to provide overlaps when there is a chance.

I like my defensive partnership of Nesta-Silva which is proven and taken at the peak level is quite world class and ofcourse Dasayev is an absolute beast of a goalkeeper behind them, I think my defense is pretty secure.

Overall I would acknowledge that my tactic is quite attacking and I am not hoping to win by defending the lead. The quality and variety in my attacking options is what I am hoping to get me to the win. The wingplay + heading combination of Dzajic-Hamrin-Kocsis or Creativity & flair of Sivori along with the playmaking and determination of V. Mazzola, I feel one way or another my attack would get to the opposition defense.
 
Initial thoughts, I think Mazzola can work in that role with a better defensive midfielder than Rossi. It’s not that Rossi wasn’t good but is here against two of the strongest defensive midfielders of all time in Zito and Souness.

I really like the front 4 of Charly but really couldn’t ask for a better defensive set up against that attack. Thuram and Krol are ideally suited to deal with the directness of Hamrin and Dzajic.
 


Souness is amongst the best defensive midfielders but sometimes his passing is underrated. He’ll have good opportunities to get the ball across quickly to Pedernera and Finney on the flanks or to Fontaine ahead
 
@Charly

Any reason Mazzola is on the left and not the right?
Seems like an already loaded left side with Dzajic/Sivori
 
Initial thoughts, I think Mazzola can work in that role with a better defensive midfielder than Rossi. It’s not that Rossi wasn’t good but is here against two of the strongest defensive midfielders of all time in Zito and Souness.

I really like the front 4 of Charly but really couldn’t ask for a better defensive set up against that attack. Thuram and Krol are ideally suited to deal with the directness of Hamrin and Dzajic.
This seem a strange line of thought. Rossi is not against the defensive midfielder he will be mostly defending against Ceulemans, and he is totally capable of doing it. Given that you are mentioning Pedernerra as one of the greats from La Mquina side, Nestor Rossi was also part of that side and the next great River/Argentina side that won multiple Copa Americas and Argentinian league. He is widely considered the greatest defensive midfielder Argentina produced after Monti.

Talking about Pedernera its clever the way he is positioned in the line up diagram, as wide as Finney on the other side. AFAIK he was never a left side forward, he played as an IF which translates to the attacking midfield position in modern formation or as a false number 9. The left side of your team is going to be manned mostly by Krol, which he is totally capable of, but he is facing an absolute legend in Hamrin there and world cup winning right back in Jorginho, I see my right side being able to take advantage in that area.

It would be interesting to see how Billy Wright feels facing against Kocsis again. He has a horrendous record against him and his English team was battered against him. He scored twice in the 7-1 win against England and scored against the Wolves team. With the service from Dzajic and Hamrin I don't think Indnyc defense being able to keep Kocsis from scoring.

A very good post on Hamrin thanks @Tuppet

Even though I've known that Hamrin was a pretty great little player as he kept popping up in Draft sides and in various rankings, I've never really appreciated how good he was until I started researching for this draft. so presenting what I found -

First some stats and records -

1. As a goal scoring winger/forward he has stupendously good numbers. He is the record goal scorer in all competition for Fiorentina with 208 goals, to put this in context second on the list is the goal machine known as Batigol with 207 and the third is on 84 goals. Also considering that quite a big chunk of his career coincided with Herrera's Catenaccio revolution in Italy, and he himself played in Rocco's Catenaccio interpretation for Milan these number become even more impressive.

2. In his first season Hamrin scored 26 goals helping Viola to score 95 goals, only the Grande Tornio team of 40s have scored more goals in a season. In the 1963-64 season Kurt's knack for putting the ball in the back of the net won him another record. As Fiorentina visited Bergamo to face Atalanta in an away fixture in the league. Fiorentina ran out 7-1 victors with Hamrin notching 5 of the 7 goals scored. To this day this remains a record as no other player has scored 5 goals in an away fixture in Serie A.

Hamrin was certainly a man for big occasions, some of his best goals have come at some of the biggest games he played in. Everybody has probably seen this beauty against Germany -

Vs Germany in 1958 world cup -



But there are plenty more, check out this performance against Rangers for Fiorentina in Cup Winners cup final in 1960/61 giving Italy its first European trophy. In the second leg Fiorentina won by 2-1, with Hamrin providing the assist for first and scoring the second, showing why he is one of the most complete wingers, who can either cross from wide or cut inside and score himself.
Vs Rangers in first CWC final 1960/61"


Or this performance when playing for Milan he scored both goals against hamburg in another Cup Winners cup final, winning the trophy again with Milan beating Hamburg 2-0. Check out especially his second goal which is probably my favorite Hamrin goal -


He also played a very important part in Milan's second European cup win in 1969, with his goal being the winner against the reigning champions Manchester United (of Law Charlton Best) in semi final.

Hamrin's career was a long and storied one, loved by the fans his elegant quick footed style combined with his prolific goal scoring ability understandably endeared him to Fiorentina's legion of supporters. The love in was mutual as to this day Kurt Hamrin still resides in Tuscany and calls Florence his home. Finally here's a selection of his best goals for Viola, showing his skills and finishing -

"Hamrin's best goals for Fiorentina"
 
@Charly

Any reason Mazzola is on the left and not the right?
Seems like an already loaded left side with Dzajic/Sivori
No particular reason other than astehtics. Ideally Sivori - Mazzola - Rossi can be seen in a line vertically, with Mazzola playing in midfield as a playmaker covering the width of pitch, while Rossi covering behind him.
 
Hard-working team against a very very offensive team. Another tough choice once again between 2 great teams
 
Can't really ask for many better full backs than Krol and Thuram to handle those wingers.
 
This seem a strange line of thought. Rossi is not against the defensive midfielder he will be mostly defending against Ceulemans, and he is totally capable of doing it. Given that you are mentioning Pedernerra as one of the greats from La Mquina side, Nestor Rossi was also part of that side and the next great River/Argentina side that won multiple Copa Americas and Argentinian league. He is widely considered the greatest defensive midfielder Argentina produced after Monti.

Talking about Pedernera its clever the way he is positioned in the line up diagram, as wide as Finney on the other side. AFAIK he was never a left side forward, he played as an IF which translates to the attacking midfield position in modern formation or as a false number 9. The left side of your team is going to be manned mostly by Krol, which he is totally capable of, but he is facing an absolute legend in Hamrin there and world cup winning right back in Jorginho, I see my right side being able to take advantage in that area.

It would be interesting to see how Billy Wright feels facing against Kocsis again. He has a horrendous record against him and his English team was battered against him. He scored twice in the 7-1 win against England and scored against the Wolves team. With the service from Dzajic and Hamrin I don't think Indnyc defense being able to keep Kocsis from scoring.

A very good post on Hamrin thanks @Tuppet

Lets address these three points first

1) Pedernera played inside left for the River Plate team and is playing on the left wing here where he is clearly going to cut in and go wide when required. Perfectly suited to the role he is asked to play here

244028_River_Plate.jpg

Here is my post from the previous round with anecdotes about his playing style

Lets talk a bit more about Adolfo Pedernera. Some of the anecdotes that are to be found.
  • The inimitable Alfredo Di Stefano, among the shrewdest judges of them all, rated Pedernera one of the best players he had ever seen, having idolised him as a fan at the Estadio Monumental and then played alongside him briefly there and for nearly four years in Bogota.
  • Pedernera was the Cruyff of that much-celebrated River team, one shaped by its coach Renato Cesarini
  • A Huracan youth product, the teenage Pedernera was fast on his feet, a skilful and fearless dribbler and could strike the ball with either foot. He dominated the left flank like no one else could, dreamed up passes that no one else saw and had a vision of the pitch that no one else possessed.
  • The youngster had won two Argentinian league titles and two cups when Peucelle and Cesarini became to Pedernera what Pep Guardiola would later become to Lionel Messi at Barcelona, switching him to a more central and more withdrawn role and inviting him to alternate between driving into the box to finish moves off and sitting back to direct them.
  • With Pedernera in the role of maquinista (“engine driver”), River won three more league crowns and three more cups, while the Argentinian national team also benefitted, landing two South American titles thanks in no small part to their schemer-in-chief.
  • He was similarly adored in Colombia, his performance on his debut prompting one newspaper to write of him: “He is a phenomenon, an artist, a master passer and the epitome of intelligence. With him, everything is possible.”
He was rated as the 12th best South American player of all time by IFFHS. His creativity and vision here is going to drive my team forward

2) Regarding Billy Wright and Koscis, it is completely unfair to compare players using just 1 game. There are many factors taht can go wrong. It is more optimal to judge them on their peak performance

3) Point about Nestor Rossi is not that he can't defend against Ceulemans. It is that between Ceulemans, Zito, and Souness, Rossi is going to have his hands full and Mazzola is not the player you want to have there to get in the midfield battle.
 
Sir Tom Finney

Bill Shankley said:
“Tom Finney would have been great in any team, in any match and in any age, even if he had been wearing an overcoat.”

Sir Stanley Matthews said:
To dictate the pace and course of a game, a player has to be blessed with awesome qualities. Those who have accomplished it on a regular basis can be counted on the fingers of one hand – Pelé, Maradona, Best, Di Stefano, and Tom Finney

Easily on par with some of the greatest wingers off all time. He will stretch the game and give Demyanenko a lot of trouble.
 
Lets address these three points first

1) Pedernera played inside left for the River Plate team and is playing on the left wing here where he is clearly going to cut in and go wide when required. Perfectly suited to the role he is asked to play here
244028_River_Plate.jpg
Here is my post from the previous round with anecdotes about his playing style

2) Regarding Billy Wright and Koscis, it is completely unfair to compare players using just 1 game. There are many factors taht can go wrong. It is more optimal to judge them on their peak performance

3) Point about Nestor Rossi is not that he can't defend against Ceulemans. It is that between Ceulemans, Zito, and Souness, Rossi is going to have his hands full and Mazzola is not the player you want to have there to get in the midfield battle.

I don't agree with you on the first point at all. It was well documented that Pedernerra was playing as an inside forward in a W-M formation. The left wing stuff was mostly taken care by Loustau and even Labruna used to drift wide on the left side. Here is what Jonathan Wilson had to say about it -
They played a rough W-M shape with an attacking center half in Néstor Rossi. The front five of–reading from right to left–Juan Carlos Muñoz, José Moreno, Adolfo Pedernera, Ángel Labruna and Félix Loustau became fabled (although they only played as a quintet 18 times over a five-year period). Rather than the two inside-forwards withdrawing as was usual in a W-M, it was Moreno and Pedernera who dropped off into the space in front of the half line. Loustau, meanwhile, patrolled the whole of the left flank, becoming known as a ‘ventilador-wing’–‘fan-wing’ (‘puntero-ventilador’ is used, but the half-English term seems more common)–because he was a winger who gave air to the midfield by doing some of their running for them.
https://www.si.com/planet-futbol/2015/04/28/il-grande-torino-la-maquina-river-plate-argentina-italy
This seem to go against a wing forward that likes to cut in.

On second point ofcourse its not unfair to compare players who faced against each other multiple times. Its not just one game either, England got thrashed 6-3 and than 7-1 against Hungary. Kocsis also scored against Billy Wright's Wolves, thats 3 goals in 3 games. Its clear to me that Wright had problem containing him, which is correct on the balance of Kocsis reputation as the greatest header of the ball the game has ever seen.

The video of him scorring two goals against England -


Here's him scoring against Wolves -
On7FGh.gif
On7FGh.gif
 
I don't agree with you on the first point at all. It was well documented that Pedernerra was playing as an inside forward in a W-M formation. The left wing stuff was mostly taken care by Loustau and even Labruna used to drift wide on the left side. Here is what Jonathan Wilson had to say about it -

https://www.si.com/planet-futbol/2015/04/28/il-grande-torino-la-maquina-river-plate-argentina-italy
This seem to go against a wing forward that likes to cut in.

On second point ofcourse its not unfair to compare players who faced against each other multiple times. Its not just one game either, England got thrashed 6-3 and than 7-1 against Hungary. Kocsis also scored against Billy Wright's Wolves, thats 3 goals in 3 games. Its clear to me that Wright had problem containing him, which is correct on the balance of Kocsis reputation as the greatest header of the ball the game has ever seen.

The video of him scorring two goals against England -


Here's him scoring against Wolves -
On7FGh.gif
On7FGh.gif


1) I never said he was a Winger who cut in. He is an inside forward who is comfortable drifting out wide. He had Loustau for company in a WM but since he doesn’t have that here, i don’t see why he won’t exploit the space available out wide. The team was known for frequently interchanging positions so i don’t see why his position here is a problem. If we are to represent old players in new formations, this is a perfectly fine position for him

2) The reason i say it is unfair to compare players in one off matches is because you don’t have the same personnel. Wright is alongwith one of the greatest Brazilian defenders of all time and simply put he has a much better defensive set up here than what he had for Wolves or England.

Thiago Silva has had his fair few nightmares against far worse players than my current set up. That doesn’t mean he is going to be caught out here.
 
Regarding Billy Wright, i know i said this in the OP but he came 2nd in Ballon D’Or vote in 1956 which was towards the end of his career. He and Da Guia should be able to manage dealing with Koscis
 
Posting some wonderful videos of one of the greatest goal scorers of all time. Credit to @Ecstatic

It is unfortunate that a lot of Just Fontaine videos is just the world cup goals



However his scoring record is unquestionable. 30 Goals in 21 games for France

221 goals in 247 games for Club. He is as lethal a finisher as they get


I did in a old draft some things about Fontaine and Kopa.

Fontaine is the #17







 
1) I never said he was a Winger who cut in. He is an inside forward who is comfortable drifting out wide. He had Loustau for company in a WM but since he doesn’t have that here, i don’t see why he won’t exploit the space available out wide. The team was known for frequently interchanging positions so i don’t see why his position here is a problem. If we are to represent old players in new formations, this is a perfectly fine position for him

2) The reason i say it is unfair to compare players in one off matches is because you don’t have the same personnel. Wright is alongwith one of the greatest Brazilian defenders of all time and simply put he has a much better defensive set up here than what he had for Wolves or England.

Thiago Silva has had his fair few nightmares against far worse players than my current set up. That doesn’t mean he is going to be caught out here.
On point 1 I guess we just have to agree to disagree. It seem the term "inside forward" is causing problems but W-M inside forward has no similarities to a modern inside forward like Cristiano Ronaldo. He can use the space available wide but by that logic you can just play any attacking midfielder wide and say that. Celumans for example has same credentials on the left side as Pedernarra. From all the literature when La Maquina played together Pedernarra played sort of Hidegkuti role of withdrawing forward who would drop deep and Labruna who is on the left side would take his place as main attacker. Labruna also interchanged with Loustau on some occasions but I've never heard Pedernarra interchaing with Loustau who was an out and out winger. I think your formation basically is sort of magic square in midfield.

On second point ofcourse when on a rare occasion two players faced each other should be brought up. Kocsis has Wright's number that is beyond a doubt to me. He was incredible in the air and I am not sure Da Guia's presence changes much in that respect. Da Guia was known for his on ball ability and was usually partnered with a more rugged defender e.g. Nasazzi. With the straight forward gameplay of two outstanding wingers providing crosses both in air and on ground for two legenday attackers Kocsis & Sivori would be very hard to defend for your defense.
 
Regarding Billy Wright, i know i said this in the OP but he came 2nd in Ballon D’Or vote in 1956 which was towards the end of his career. He and Da Guia should be able to manage dealing with Koscis
He literally could not manage it against Kocsis in real world. How does coming second in Ballon D'or vote change that ?
 
He literally could not manage it against Kocsis in real world. How does coming second in Ballon D'or vote change that ?

The Ballon D’Or references his credentials as a defender. The only thing i am getting from the game is Koscis when paired with Puskas and a whole bunch of other great players scored 3 times against a team that had Billy Wright as a defender.

It doesn’t mean that he will score here especially with the defensive set up around Wright.
 
On point 1 I guess we just have to agree to disagree. It seem the term "inside forward" is causing problems but W-M inside forward has no similarities to a modern inside forward like Cristiano Ronaldo. He can use the space available wide but by that logic you can just play any attacking midfielder wide and say that. Celumans for example has same credentials on the left side as Pedernarra. From all the literature when La Maquina played together Pedernarra played sort of Hidegkuti role of withdrawing forward who would drop deep and Labruna who is on the left side would take his place as main attacker. Labruna also interchanged with Loustau on some occasions but I've never heard Pedernarra interchaing with Loustau who was an out and out winger. I think your formation basically is sort of magic square in midfield.

On second point ofcourse when on a rare occasion two players faced each other should be brought up. Kocsis has Wright's number that is beyond a doubt to me. He was incredible in the air and I am not sure Da Guia's presence changes much in that respect. Da Guia was known for his on ball ability and was usually partnered with a more rugged defender e.g. Nasazzi. With the straight forward gameplay of two outstanding wingers providing crosses both in air and on ground for two legenday attackers Kocsis & Sivori would be very hard to defend for your defense.

I don’t think Da Guia was ever partnered with a defender like Nasazzi as he played primarily in a WM as the sole center back. Your two outstanding attackers in Hamrin and Dzajic are in positions with two outstanding defenders. Sivori is directly in line with Zito who should be able to handle him.

Your attack is good but so is my defense which should help cutting off your best threats.

On Pedernera, lets agree to disagree. The whole system was flexible. According to me in a modern formation, that position is the closest to what he would play.
 
With Zito and Souness, i will be able to control the midfield. Add in Ceulemans to overload it and i can see Mazzola and Rossi struggling to dominate the game

Zito

Zito was a colossal influence; a commanding if somewhat unsung presence in midfield as Brazil emerged as the ultimate force in international football, winning the World Cup for the first time in 1958 and retaining it in 1962.

While headlines were dominated by the prodigious talents of team-mates such as Pele and Garrincha, and understandably so, the neat, pragmatic, impeccably organised wing-half was invariably instrumental in creating the platform from which the stars dazzled.

Zito was a strong, intelligent character who won tackles and made simple passes, entering the limelight only occasionally. The most decisive such occasion was when he started and finished the move which put the Selecao in front after conceding an early lead to Czechoslovakia in the 1962 final in Santiago, Chile, nodding home an Amarildo cross on the way to a 3-1 triumph.

Four years earlier, in Sweden, he had been integral to the 5-2 victory over the host nation in the Stockholm final, and he went on to collect 52 caps in an international career which stretched from 1955 to 1964.

At domestic level, too, Zito was hugely successful, helping Santos – his only senior club, for whom he scored 57 goals in more than 700 appearances between 1952 and 1967 – to win 22 major trophies. These included the Copa Libertadores twice, in 1962 and 1963, and the Sao Paulo state championship nine times.

Edit:- Credit to @harms for this post. I got it from one of your previous draft matches and altered some of it
 
Last edited:
I don’t think Da Guia was ever partnered with a defender like Nasazzi as he played primarily in a WM as the sole center back. Your two outstanding attackers in Hamrin and Dzajic are in positions with two outstanding defenders. Sivori is directly in line with Zito who should be able to handle him.

Your attack is good but so is my defense which should help cutting off your best threats.

On Pedernera, lets agree to disagree. The whole system was flexible. According to me in a modern formation, that position is the closest to what he would play.
Da guia was actually partnered with Nasazzi in Nactional and formed a pretty great albeit brief partnership. He played as the left side defender in 2-3-5 and was usually known for his skill on ball. I know your defense is good but you are NOT cutting off my best threat. I don't know how you can possibly claim that with Wright's record against Kocsis, and Kocsis is my biggest threat. Your fullbacks as good as they are can not stop my wingers from crossing, this is particularly true on your left side where Krol is practically running the whole flank by himself.
 
The Ballon D’Or references his credentials as a defender. The only thing i am getting from the game is Koscis when paired with Puskas and a whole bunch of other great players scored 3 times against a team that had Billy Wright as a defender.

It doesn’t mean that he will score here especially with the defensive set up around Wright.
Kocsis is surrounded by great players here as well, Sivori is not far off from Puskas when it comes to second striker role. Dzajic is as good if not better winger than Czibor and Hamrin is without a doubt an improvement over Budai. Mazzola's playmaking albeit from deeper position is also not inferior from Hidegkuti. Billy Wright is still your defender and is not partnered with some colossus in air is going to suffer against Kocsis surely.
 
With Zito and Souness, i will be able to control the midfield. Add in Ceulemans to overload it and i can see Mazzola and Rossi struggling to dominate the game
As far as I know, Zito's Brazil & Sivori's Argentina met only once in Copa America 1957 final where Sivori helped his team to a 3-0 victory. That team also included Nestor Rossi playing against the likes of Didi & Zizinho. Infact Brazil & Zito consistently get beaten by Rossi's Argentina losing both Copa America 57 & 59 to Argentina and bunch of other friendly games as well.



Zito has a huge huge task in front of him containing Ballon D'or winner Omar Sivori. Having another hardworking playmaker in Mazzola behind him helps as well and allow to release pressure if both Souness & Zito double team him. The narrative that somehow having two defensive midfielders in the team has gives your team edge in the midfield is completely wrong. More technically proficient midfielders who can contribute in both phases of the game are better able to control it.
 
No particular reason other than astehtics. Ideally Sivori - Mazzola - Rossi can be seen in a line vertically, with Mazzola playing in midfield as a playmaker covering the width of pitch, while Rossi covering behind him.

Umm, not sure about the 1 player covering the width of the pitch. That is not how modern football works at least in my eyes.
Especially when you have someone like Mazzola who has to put much more of a defensive shift than usual. I am not sure if he played in a 2 man midfield. Feel its an under use of his abilities albeit a role he could still play well.
Mazzola on the right makes much more sense to me aesthetically as well with him working with Hamrin and operating in the inside right areas when he bombs forward.
That opens up all the four outside left/right and inside left/right zones in a balanced way albeit being a little risky on the defensive side of the game.
 
Contemplating changing votes as Charly makes a compelling case.
While he should be able to create lots of chances even with the excellent Thuram/Krol/Souness/Zito sheild, its the defense that worries me.

Silva/Jorginho/Demyanenko does feel like Nesta being left the lone one from the higher echelons of defensive tiers.
Will wait to read a bit more before I stick my vote to one team.
 
Zito has a huge huge task in front of him containing Ballon D'or winner Omar Sivori. Having another hardworking playmaker in Mazzola behind him helps as well and allow to release pressure if both Souness & Zito double team him. The narrative that somehow having two defensive midfielders in the team has gives your team edge in the midfield is completely wrong. More technically proficient midfielders who can contribute in both phases of the game are better able to control it.

Are you saying Souness and Zito are not technically proficient? Mazzola in a 2 man midfield against 2 aggressive players like Souness and Zito is going to only end in us winning the midfield battle more often than not. He can play there but that is not his best position and it is not where he will be able to influence the game as much.

It’s like me playing Ceulemans in a 2 man midfield and claiming well he was hard working and has great technical ability so he’ll do perfectly fine there.

Souness is going to have a great game here as simply put we are going to overload the midfield with Ceulemans also dropping in.
 
Kocsis is surrounded by great players here as well, Sivori is not far off from Puskas when it comes to second striker role. Dzajic is as good if not better winger than Czibor and Hamrin is without a doubt an improvement over Budai. Mazzola's playmaking albeit from deeper position is also not inferior from Hidegkuti. Billy Wright is still your defender and is not partnered with some colossus in air is going to suffer against Kocsis surely.

Sure they are.. I never disagreed with that.. Surely you understand though that the defenses are completely different?

Hamrin and Dzajic are going to get next to no support from your full backs who will have to deal with Finney and Pedernera who are facing a worse pair of full backs.

Silva is easily the worst center back on the field (His credentials so far do not match up to anything my two defenders or Nesta has done)

Fontaine is going to have a lot of joy going up against him
 
Umm, not sure about the 1 player covering the width of the pitch. That is not how modern football works at least in my eyes.
Especially when you have someone like Mazzola who has to put much more of a defensive shift than usual. I am not sure if he played in a 2 man midfield. Feel its an under use of his abilities albeit a role he could still play well.
Mazzola on the right makes much more sense to me aesthetically as well with him working with Hamrin and operating in the inside right areas when he bombs forward.
That opens up all the four outside left/right and inside left/right zones in a balanced way albeit being a little risky on the defensive side of the game.

Even with Mazzola on the right which was my original thought, his defense simply isn’t good enough for the attacking formation in front of him.

Jorginho vs. Pedernera and Demyanenko vs Tom Finney on the wings are favorable match ups to me.
 
Da guia was actually partnered with Nasazzi in Nactional and formed a pretty great albeit brief partnership. He played as the left side defender in 2-3-5 and was usually known for his skill on ball. I know your defense is good but you are NOT cutting off my best threat. I don't know how you can possibly claim that with Wright's record against Kocsis, and Kocsis is my biggest threat. Your fullbacks as good as they are can not stop my wingers from crossing, this is particularly true on your left side where Krol is practically running the whole flank by himself.

He was paired with him at the very start of his career for 1 year at most though don’t have too many details.

Krol is not running the whole flank by himself. Pedernera (wherever you believe his best position is) is going to be my main threat on the left hand side.

He is perfectly capable of drifting out wide and being central to help support Fontaine. Jorginho is going to struggle against the movement of Pedernera.
 
Nestor Rossi was part of the Argentina team that finished bottom of the 1958 World Cup group (Which was won by Zito leading Brazil to victory) conceding 10 goals include 6 to the Czech side containing Masopust and Pluskal who aren’t too dissimilar to Souness and Zito

I could say that Rossi would struggle here to keep hold of the midfield even with Mazzola putting a shift in
 
the Czech side containing Masopust and Pluskal who aren’t too dissimilar to Souness and Zito
I think the only similarity between those two pairings is that both players can be described as midfielders.
 
I think the only similarity between those two pairings is that both players can be described as midfielders.
When the opposition is quoting Sivori to be similar to Puskas, i think it is fair to make some assumptions
 
Nestor Rossi was part of the Argentina team that finished bottom of the 1958 World Cup group (Which was won by Zito leading Brazil to victory) conceding 10 goals include 6 to the Czech side containing Masopust and Pluskal who aren’t too dissimilar to Souness and Zito

I could say that Rossi would struggle here to keep hold of the midfield even with Mazzola putting a shift in
Just as an aside. I always thought it was weird how much that Argentina side struggled in the World Cup, yet dominated the Copa Americas either side of it. Brazil conversely were nowhere in the continental competition, but head and shoulders above in the World Cup. I'm sure there's an explanation which I've just been too lazy to find out about.
 
Like both teams.

For Charly the only thing I can't wrap my head around is how Mazzola would fare in that role. Against Souness and Zito his midfield would have a tough task ahead and Rossi would have to do a mountain of a job to keep things together.

That and of course not big fan of Silva.

On the other side if I'm picking loopholes, Da Guia as well I'm not sure how high I'd rate him and perhaps needs to be replaced at this stage.

Da Guia and Billy Wright aren't the best fit for golden head here and with that service from Djazic and Hamrin would definitely create chances.

That and Dasayev is an advantage for Charly, but the midfield is really what makes me vote for Indnyc. Van Hanegem was a huge loss.
 
Sivori is quite close to Puskas mate.

Think the context was finding a similar set up to the Hungarian team (that beat Billy Wright) and i don’t think Sivori can replicate what Puskas bought to the team.
 
Like both teams.

For Charly the only thing I can't wrap my head around is how Mazzola would fare in that role. Against Souness and Zito his midfield would have a tough task ahead and Rossi would have to do a mountain of a job to keep things together.

That and of course not big fan of Silva.

On the other side if I'm picking loopholes, Da Guia as well I'm not sure how high I'd rate him and perhaps needs to be replaced at this stage.

Da Guia and Billy Wright aren't the best fit for golden head here and with that service from Djazic and Hamrin would definitely create chances.

That and Dasayev is an advantage for Charly, but the midfield is really what makes me vote for Indnyc. Van Hanegem was a huge loss.

I know we had this discussion in the previous round as well on Da Guia who i thought was very well rated here. But it seems his stock has gone down