Impossible Draft QF - Gio vs Ecstatic

With players at Career peak, who will win this match?


  • Total voters
    23
  • Poll closed .
Think Gio posted the kicker ratings @Enigma_87 and said it was World Class.

Seen Kicker referenced a few times and it looks an incredible source but I’ve not been able to navigate to the ratings on the website. Any chance you can post the source you have?
 
WHY SEELER-LAUDRUP IS THE BEST DUO --->> CASE STUDY 1 - Laudrup on the left and Seeler scoring









 
I really like Khurtsilava (I think I was the first one to pick him), but in this particular game I think he'd be exposed — Seeler is pretty much the worst possible opponent for him, he's quicker, stronger, more agile and better in the air. At least Briegel, who's probably a worse center back on paper, can match Seeler's physicality.

Khurtsilava was surprisingly good against more conventional center forwards, despite the lack of height, but when I look at Seeler I think about how Müller absolutely destroyed him those few times when they've met.
Well der Bomber would pretty much destroy anybody who isn't Baresi or Figueroa. Find it surprising that you find Seeler stronger than Khurtsilava tho, thought he was pretty well build and could outmuscle him in that department.

Agree with the rest. My reasoning is that he's more accomplished as a CB, compared to Briegel, but now going through some of the Kicker ratings and will post them in the thread.
 
Think Gio posted the kicker ratings @Enigma_87 and said it was World Class.

Seen Kicker referenced a few times and it looks an incredible source but I’ve not been able to navigate to the ratings on the website. Any chance you can post the source you have?

Here's a link mate. It's only commentary on the players rated world class in each six month period rather than the complete rankings though

http://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/kicker-commentary-for-world-class-players.2058932/
 
Think Gio posted the kicker ratings @Enigma_87 and said it was World Class.

Seen Kicker referenced a few times and it looks an incredible source but I’ve not been able to navigate to the ratings on the website. Any chance you can post the source you have?
Aye, sure.

Since 64 Kicker has team of the week and then team of the season based on the appearances of a player in certain position.

In the case of Briegel I can see him being rotated between LB and CB in those years.

Here are the ratings where he is included in team of the season:

1979-80

-----------Cha 8-----------Hrubesch 7------K.H.Rummenigge 9

---------H.Müller 6-------Breitner 10--------Keegan 8

------Dietz 6-------Briegel 9-------Fichtel 5-------Kaltz 9

---------------------------Junghans 5

1980-81


--------Volkert 5---------Ökland 5-------K.H.Rummenigge 14

--------B.Nickel 5-------Breitner 13--------Burgsmüller 9

----Briegel 8------Pezzey 7------Hannes 8------Kaltz 7

---------------------------Heinze 5


1981-82

--K.H.Rummenigge 7---Bastrup 7------Littbarski 7

-----Woodcock 7---------Breitner 6--------Magath 6

-----Willmer 7-----Briegel 9----Hieronymus 7------Kaltz 6

----------------------------Immel 8

1982-83


-------Milewski 8---------Völler 10--------K.H.Rummenigge 10

---------Magath 7--------Breitner 7----------Matthäus 9

-----Briegel 6------Strack 6-------Bast 8------B.Förster 5

----------------------------Franke 7


In 79-80 and 81-82 those are pretty solid credentials - meaning he was team of the week 9 times.

Will look up the Kicker season reports as well if he's mentioned there(should be) and will post them also in the thread.
 
And ratings:

Hans-Peter Briegel [Stopper]

Over the course of the year we always rated Briegel as “international class” but by the end of the year the majority of our writers were now sure he had to be rated in the highest category. Briegel, the former ‘muscle man’ from Kaiserslautern who was more known for his athletic abilities than his football skills by now has mastered the ABC of football in such a high degree that he even managed to oust the national team’s stopper Karlheinz Förster from the first place in this, his strongest position. And he managed this despite him not being able to show what he has to offer as stopper for the national team. His performances for his club already were sufficient to rate him as a stopper of world class. How glad Jupp Derwall can feel for having two such highly-rated players available for the stopper role!

July 1981

World Class
...after we had rated five players as 'world class' in our last ranking - Harald Schumacher, Hans-Peter Briegel, Paul Breitner, Karl-Heinz Rummenigge and Bruno Pezzey - this time we only rated four players in this category. Briegel from Kaiserslautern could not keep up his sublime form of the first half of the season and also he hardly ever was deployed as a stopper, the role in which we classed him as 'world class'. Instead he now rose in the ranks of the full backs to the first position in 'international class', ahead of Manfred Kaltz and Bernard Dietz.
 
Here's a link mate. It's only commentary on the players rated world class in each six month period rather than the complete rankings though

http://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/kicker-commentary-for-world-class-players.2058932/

Yes, those are the ones!

They've pulled and translated it from German, had it from another source before.

Was looking at them in another draft to underline Kalle's versatility and the LWF role.

I've also posted the team of the week(season), which is also pretty good indication on the course of the season, not only going by commentary.
 
WHY SEELER-LAUDRUP IS THE BEST DUO --->> CASE STUDY 2 - TWO TYPICAL GOALS ECSTATIC WOULD SCORE


1) In the OP, there is a video about Seeler's movement: the ever-moving player would attract Mozer & co, creating space for Laudrup to operate

2) Laudrup benefiting from that movement. Also a brief preview of the connection Laudrup-Figo

 
Interesting why Briegel wasn't labeled world class in 81/82 for the stopper position. He was nominated team of the week 9 times - more than anyone else, and from what I'm getting he was reestablished as stopper, compared to the year prior.

Forster didn't even make the list of the season yet won the WC ranking.
 
The clearest mismatch on the park is in the centre of midfield. Falcao and Zidane against Lazzatti and Tigana? Looks pretty decisive to me.

It's going to take an enormous effort to stop them individually, never mind as a partnership.



We know very little about Lazzatti, other than he was elegant and played a few nice passes. Never mind the quality argument - he simply isn't the right fit for the job in hand to anchor that midfield.

In contrast, our midfield anchor is Nestor Goncalves, a serial winner and slayer of European and South American giants throughout his career. One midfield is chiselled out of Uruguayan and Brazilian rock, the other is built on sand.

Midfield is key in this one. With Zidane and Falcao combining ahead of Goncalves, it is an area I feel we have an advantage in. As much as I can see Tigana offering some firm résistance, he may get marooned at times as I'm not as sold on the defensive efforts of either Lazzatti or Laudrup. I love the Lazzatti pick and it's great to find out about new players. But all my reading of him seems to talk about his elegance and his passing ability, whereas I would imagine that midfield needs some battle-hardened rigour to withstand the onslaught. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not sold on the balance there in terms of what it's up against.
Ecstatic any response to this?
 
That first para in their first ratings in 1955 makes sense even after so many years :angel:

A sport man may consider it a sin to create a ranking order for individuals that are competing in a team sport. For individual sports like tennis, boxing and swimming - well, an individual comparison is allowed. For a team sport however the esteem for the highest virtue of a team sport - the team work - forbids such a comparison.
We ask for forgiveness for having created such a ranking and ask for acknowledgment that we are aware of the inherent difficulties of such a ranking. And we by no means raise the claim of being infallible. To the contrary, the more debate and controversy our ranking sparks, the more it fulfills the meaning we have intended for it: to enliven the debate among the football folk. .....
 
Ecstatic any response to this?

I don't deny the quality of your players and am no longer interested in saying bad things about the players or go on and on about the individual battles.

I look at the big picture:

1) A striker Seeler with an impresive high work-rate (like Law btw)
2) A player like Figo who is a specialist on the wing, a modern winger with all the requisites contrary to the brilliant Kubala who has different skills (certainly more creative and finisher). Figo would defend more than Joya or Kubala
3) Tigana who is the most aggressive defensive midfielder on the pitch, a kind of Kanté with better technical skills
4) My understanding of Lazzatti is that he seems to be a reliable defensive midfielder with average technical skills and plays with simplicity. Unfortunately, I don't have footage. He isn't a box-to-box but a kind of holding defensive midfielder
5) Laudrup won't tackle a lot for sure but a cliché to suggest he won't do the minimum defensive work
6) The defence and the golden rule (+)(-)(+)(-)

All in all:

- I have a very disciplined and robust right-wing: Figo & Bergomi with the support of Tigana.
- I understand that Zidane & Laudrup like to operate on the left hald of the pitch and that is why Tigana is my righ central defensive midfielder (version Euro 84)
- The left wing is more offensive and that is why I have Lazatti as the left defensive midfielder because I know he won't attack and support the offensive players. His role is just to play with simplicity and protect the defence with the appropriate positioning
- Seeler's work rate enables the team to be more compact: he isn't the typical striker who camps in the penalty area
 
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Well der Bomber would pretty much destroy anybody who isn't Baresi or Figueroa. Find it surprising that you find Seeler stronger than Khurtsilava tho, thought he was pretty well build and could outmuscle him in that department.

Agree with the rest. My reasoning is that he's more accomplished as a CB, compared to Briegel, but now going through some of the Kicker ratings and will post them in the thread.
I guess I just rate Seeler incredibly high :) Khurtsilava was strong but he wasn't a wall of muscles like Desailly, for example.

I think it's the combination of strength and agility that Seeler had (and Müller to an extent) — usually strong strikers aren't as mobile, which would suit Khurtsilava better, but when it's such a nimble (but powerful) forward, he can be outplayed, as it happened with Müller. Obviously marking Müller is one of the worst possible tasks for any defender, and more so than Seeler.
 
My last post to mention a new point

Historico-Roberto-Perfumo-Racing-Club_LRZIMA20160312_0006_11.jpg






Perfumo, from lathe operator to football legend
(FIFA.com) 12 Mar 2016
2769737_full-lnd.jpg

© Getty Images

"What's your day job, kid?"

"I'm a lathe operator."

"Well, stick to that, because you're not cut out to play football."

Misjudgements do not get much bigger than this one by River Plate youth director El Gordo Diaz, because the lathe operator in question, Roberto Perfumo, would blossom into a star after leaving the club as a free agent at the age of 17. A big star, one of the top centre-backs in Argentinian football history. Back in the days when nicknames meant something, the commentator Jose Maria Munoz dubbed him The Marshal of the Area. Perfumo endlessly lived up to this billing. The word "marshal" perfectly encapsulates the way he played, marrying dominance and elegance; he had boots of steel to halt opposition players and a silky touch when picking out his team-mates.

Diaz was not the only person who failed to spot his talent. Perfumo had previously been rejected by Lanus and Independiente. He was a left midfielder at the time and, like every Argentinian footballer born in the 1940s, had started out playing on his local dirt pitches. However, he had also found another way to learn his trade. As he told El Grafico magazine, "As a kid, I used to go to Racing's stadium to see the guys I admired do their thing, and then I'd try to emulate them on the potrero [a makeshift dirt pitch]."

It was none other than Racing Club who eventually identified his potential and he moved there in 1961. His lathe-operating days were history, although not before something had rubbed off on him. "I'd started as an apprentice at 13 years old. It's a job that requires a lot of precision, just like in the area," he once quipped with his trademark sense of humour. Precision enough to time his tackles phenomenally.

Pizzuti's masterstroke, a turning point
What Diaz had lacked in vision where Perfumo was concerned, Juan Jose Pizzuti showed in abundance. With two defenders out injured, the Racing coach shifted the then youngster back from midfield into the heart of the backline, partnering him with Alfredo Basile in a match against Ferro. "We were a shambles, the fans wanted to kill me. I told Pizzuti it wasn't going to work. The guy was insistent. 'You're going to play there, you're going to get called up to the national team and you're going to bring me back a ball from London when you go to the World Cup.'" That was in August 1965. That same December, Osvaldo Zubeldia named him in the Argentina squad: "I never budged after that."

Back in his midfield days, he had played in the 1964 Olympics in Tokyo, famously crying disconsolately after the 3-2 defeat by the host nation. As a defender, though, his contribution was momentous. He was outstanding at the FIFA World Cup England 1966™, where Argentina made it to the quarter-finals, and captained his country at Germany 1974. Nevertheless, like so many members of his generation, he was also a victim of the chaos that surrounded La Albiceleste.

"It was amazing the way the national team burned players out," he later told journalist Pablo Vignone for the book Así jugamos [This is How We Played]. "The organisation was an utter mess. There was no training or preparation; we weren't trained with the grit, drive and enthusiasm required."

This situation led to Argentina's one and only failure to qualify for the World Cup, when a 2-2 draw with Peru at Boca Juniors' Estadio Bombonera in 1969 prevented them from reaching Mexico 1970. "At the time I felt like quitting football and going somewhere faraway, where no one would know who I was," Perfumo later said.

The tango approach to football
That day must rank alongside the defeat by Johan Cruyff's Netherlands in 1974 as one of the few moments when he was unable to make the impossible possible. Speaking of which, as a fanatical tanguero, he had adopted and adapted the motto of legendary bandoneon player Anibal Troilo, "Tango is easy or impossible." "Football is the same: easy or impossible," Perfumo used to say. And he made it look easy on countless occasions, like when he would effortlessly emerge triumphant from the pitched battles that unfolded in that period in the Copa Libertadores, in which he led Racing to glory in 1967 – an achievement they followed up by beating Celtic in the Intercontinental Cup.

Or when he became the first Argentinian football icon in Brazil by capturing four trophies with Cruzeiro. Or when he returned to River Plate at 32, which was considered a ripe old age in the 1970s, to help end the ignominy of their 18-year title drought. Having been crowned a champion with Los Millonarios three times, one day in 1978, now 36, he was on the way to play in a Superclásico and he realised that he was jealous of the people he saw relaxing in the park. That was when he knew the time had come to hang up his boots.

He tried his hand at coaching, but this clashed with his new-found penchant for "eating ravioli and having a nap" on Sundays. He enjoyed the quiet life for a while, getting into the textile business and spending ten years out of football. He resurfaced in the dugout in 1991, challenging for the title with Racing before guiding Gimnasia y Esgrima La Plata to the Argentinian Football Association Centenary Cup crown in 1994. After that, though, he would once again prioritise "quality of life" and never coached again.

Journalism proved the ideal avenue for Perfumo to continue his love affair with the game. On top of his wealth of experience as a player, he could offer even deeper insight, drawing on his studies in social science. For more than 15 years, when The Marshal spoke and wrote, everyone sat up and took notice. Just like when the sad news broke of his death on 10 March 2016, at the age of 73, after suffering an aneurysm as a result of an accident.

It is just as well that Perfumo did not heed El Gordo Diaz's words

+ book 'white angels' johan carlin

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It's hard to forget just how incredible Zinedine Zidane was at Euro 2000. It's probably the only tournament since 1986 when the top player just stood out head and shoulders above everyone else. And it was a high quality tournament, perhaps the best of the modern era, with several of the traditionally strong European nations in Italy, Spain, Portugal, Holland and France really peaking and going at it full pelt. Even then Zidane was still absolutely fantastic - and that's coming from someone who thought he was a little over-rated compared to Rivaldo, Figo and Ronaldo before that summer.

The compilation video is worth a watch, if only to basque in his unparalleled balance and poise on the ball. I think he's well placed to shine in this game, with Falcao behind him and Law ahead of him (look at those videos - he'd love to hook up with Zidane). Not only that, a wee shimmy and he can slip a pass through to Czibor or Kubala no less.



With Ecstatic's midfield looking somewhat lightweight, this sort of touch and awareness of what is around could be potentially devastating:



See you later Lazzatti.
 
It's hard to forget just how incredible Zinedine Zidane was at Euro 2000. It's probably the only tournament since 1986 when the top player just stood out head and shoulders above everyone else. And it was a high quality tournament, perhaps the best of the modern era, with several of the traditionally strong European nations in Italy, Spain, Portugal, Holland and France really peaking and going at it full pelt. Even then Zidane was still absolutely fantastic - and that's coming from someone who thought he was a little over-rated compared to Rivaldo, Figo and Ronaldo before that summer.

The compilation video is worth a watch, if only to basque in his unparalleled balance and poise on the ball. I think he's well placed to shine in this game, with Falcao behind him and Law ahead of him (look at those videos - he'd love to hook up with Zidane). Not only that, a wee shimmy and he can slip a pass through to Czibor or Kubala no less.


UEFA blocked it — at least for me :(
 
Re: Lazzatti

Seems that all the semi-promising sources are in Spanish, as per. I remember reading something about him when I did some Machina related research but it was hardly extensive.

I think he played mainly as a centrehalf, though. The two other members of the famous Boca trio were winghalves from what I can gather. He seems to belong to that category of centrehalves who stood out because they transcended the basic role to some extent, i.e. played a more expansive game. He's noted for his solid passing and his talent for organizing the team – several sources mention that he wasn't very good technically, so I'd say he probably wasn't much for making runs with the ball into the opposition half. Defensively, he appears to have been good in the air (he would have dropped down frequently to do a job on the opposition centre forward if he played anything like a traditional CH).

Positionally he doesn't look out of place in E's team here – but precisely what sort of player he actually was isn't easy to say without more detailed descriptions of his game.
 
@Ecstatic unlucky mate. I didn’t want to vote as I felt the teams really offset each other and thought it wouldn’t be fair to vote for one over the other.
 
@Theon the unofficial AM who votes for Gio at the last minute, the joke

Dunno where you’ve got that from mate but wouldn’t cause an issue where there isn’t one. Gio’s asked me questions on players but that happens all the time and it’s completely different to being an AM. Over the years I’ve had loads of PMs with different drafters and never not voted in the games. Happens all the time and I’ll regulalry ask opinions from invictus, harms, Anto etc.

In terms of this game I actually wasn’t a fan of his reinforcements at all and I thought he should have moved to a three at the back system like Indync used (with Erico alongside Law up top). Wasn’t convinced on Briegel as a CB but I thought it was well argued in the thread. In attack and midfield I think there is an edge in his team over yours - for example I’ve been surprised how little Czibor has been mentioned, as imo he’s a shoe-in as a top five left winger of all time. I remember Joga debating with someone and he rated him higher than Dzajic, and I agree there’s not much in it.
 
@Theon the unofficial AM who votes for Gio at the last minute, the joke
Thought he might vote for you to be honest as, like enigma, he wasn’t the biggest fan of the Khurtsilava out, Marzolini in plan. Happy to have his vote discounted in what’s left of the draft if it’s felt to be a conflict of interest.
 
Good luck for the rest of the draft
 
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