Imposing Ourselves on a team

Big Andy

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I long for the days where we would turn up to a ground, anywhere in the world, and play our own game and let the other team bend to our will, change their normal style of play to try and match us. For too long we've been the ones setting up not to lose, rather than going all out to win.

I know Fergie would change up away in Europe and pack the midfield, but we'd still play our attacking game around that. The counter attacking football we've played for what seems like forever is exactly why we can't beat a decent team away from home, we are far too passive in away games when we play defensively (badly) and try to play on the break, it invites pressure which we struggle to deal with.
 
We used to have Scholes and Carrick to start attacks. They hardly ever lost the ball while still being creative.

Casemiro tries to take the burden of passing but he's not a good enough passer. Bruno is super creative but loses the ball easily and cannot take up midfield positions to alleviate pressure.

Yes we need a striker but the midfield is a mess. Teams like Fulham can outplay our midfield easily. Eriksen is not the answer.

Ten Hag has improved our defending massively and has made us dangerous playing at home. But he doesn't have an answer to this midfield problem.

We need 2 midfielders - de Jong and Caceido. We will start to play football. Problem is that thus would be the whole budget while not getting a striker which is also badly needed.

However if given the choice, I'd take 2 class midfielders over 1 class striker.

You can't get out passed and out pressed by 70% of the league.
 
I think we seen us impose ETH Style of football in patches this year. We can see he has a way of playing and some players are now on board with it e.g. Rashford, Shaw, AWB. All playing well and playing consistently well. But for every Rashford there is a Sancho, For a Every Shaw, there is a there is a Maguire. It must come down to Mindset of those not on the journey who are not upping their game or playing to a high consistent bar.

It's a complicated point @Big Andy you raise as last nights result was disappointing. Recent performances have been disappointing. Where ETH has been to tease out consistent levels of play, the guy is not Gandalf and he cant get that out of all players clearly. So for me this shows the deficiencies in the squad.

Still willing to take the positives though in that we have a foundation in Rashford, Shaw, Casemiro, Martinez, Varane, Bruno. Rome wasn't built in the day and Anthony has had a bar rap, personally think he will come good. A few more additions then I think we will be right up there as a consistent team.
 
Patience.

We can't go from the shite we were playing last season to suddenly being world beaters in one season. There are flashes of positivity and that's all we can cling on for now. It's done a million times on this forum but I'll do it again, the best in the league took some time to implement their system. Pep finished 4th in his first season, Klopp finished 8th in his first season and 4th in first full season.

Hopefully, we're looking at a manager in Ten Hag who knows what he wants and is decisive and sharp enough to get the right players in. That's the only next step we can take in our process right now.
 
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r3idy said:
I think we seen us impose ETH Style of football in patches this year. We can see he has a way of playing and some players are now on board with it e.g. Rashford, Shaw, AWB. All playing well and playing consistently well. But for every Rashford there is a Sancho, For a Every Shaw, there is a there is a Maguire. It must come down to Mindset of those not on the journey who are not upping their game or playing to a high consistent bar.

It's a complicated point @Big Andy you raise as last nights result was disappointing. Recent performances have been disappointing. Where ETH has been to tease out consistent levels of play, the guy is not Gandalf and he cant get that out of all players clearly. So for me this shows the deficiencies in the squad.

Still willing to take the positives though in that we have a foundation in Rashford, Shaw, Casemiro, Martinez, Varane, Bruno. Rome wasn't built in the day and Anthony has had a bar rap, personally think he will come good. A few more additions then I think we will be right up there as a consistent team.
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Antony was a complete waste of money
 
Nickelodeon said:
Patience.

We can't go from the shite we were playing last season to suddenly being world beaters in one season. There are flashes of positivity and that's all we can cling on for now. It's done a million times on this forum but I'll do it again, the best in the league took some time to implement their system. Pep finished 4th in his first season, Klopp finished 8th in his first season and 4th in first full season.

Hopefully, we're looking at a manager in Ten Hag who knows what he wants and is decisive and sharp enough to get the right players in. That's the only next step we can take in our process right now.
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Shame ownership is so fecking diabolical
 
croadyman said:
Antony was a complete waste of money
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No he wasn't. we overpaid like we always do but he's been good. I still expect a lot more to come.

On the other hand Sancho is a complete waste of money, with no real performances to indicate improvement.
 
croadyman said:
Antony was a complete waste of money
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In what way is he ? (Not being confrontational?)

He is often double marked. tracks back a lot more than other wingers in the league.

Absolutely concede he is pretty one footed but you get mugs on the TV going on about he doesnt take people on, on the outside but for all intents and purposes he's an inverted winger.

Maybe its just me, but I like a player who's got minerals. At least the fekker fights for himself and his team, where others just wilt (Jadon Noshow, Martial)

Either way, respect your opinion
 
r3idy said:
In what way is he ? (Not being confrontational?)

He is often double marked. tracks back a lot more than other wingers in the league.

Absolutely concede he is pretty one footed but you get mugs on the TV going on about he doesnt take people on, on the outside but for all intents and purposes he's an inverted winger.

Maybe its just me, but I like a player who's got minerals. At least the fekker fights for himself and his team, where others just wilt (Jadon Noshow, Martial)

Either way, respect your opinion
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Just doesn't offer enough for this team and ultimately signing him cost us a striker
 
sounds rapey but i get what you're saying.

Brighton are really good passers, so it's hard to control them. We should "impose ourselves" all over West Ham though as they are a pretty soft team and i think we can dominate them into submitting all 3 points.
 
USREDEVIL said:
sounds rapey but i get what you're saying.

Brighton are really good passers, so it's hard to control them. We should "impose ourselves" all over West Ham though as they are a pretty soft team and i think we can dominate them into submitting all 3 points.
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The aim is to be better than Brighton. City will go there and have the majority of the ball. We need to be doing the same.
 
Nickelodeon said:
Pep finished 4th in his first season
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It is absolutely fascinating to me how often this is repeated on the Caf. A true example of the Mandela effect.

They finished third. Yet there seems to be some enduring collective memory of them being fourth.
 
Because the game in England has changed in the last 10 years with the influx of a new breed of head coach, who attacks from the back and defends from the front. We got a taste of that in the UCL final defeats to Barcelona, when Barcelona not only outplayed us in possession but also collectively pressed us high, which rendered our midfield and backline obsolete. And that wasn't such a big thing in the EPL at the time but those ideas have now started to dominate the EPL at the top where it's extremely important to collectively control the game in the first phase of the build up, which starts with keeper.

Unless your manager is Mourinho and playing direct football with a view to winning ground and aerial duels is your MO against technically strong teams who defend from the front. Then it's important to build the team around players who are technically strong in possession and occupy positions in the first phase of the build up. So the GK, CBs, Fullbacks and deeper midfielders are the key to controlling the game. And Brighton controlled the game against us in midfield because their goalkeeper, CBs and fullbacks provided their midfielders with a strong platform, so they could express themselves due to plenty of possession. That also meant they could play a higher defensive line and press us high up the pitch. You can't control the game with just your midfielders against teams who are technically strong in possesion, aswell as those teams beings adept at pressing high in a compact high block.

Against teams who give us time to play out from the back, we won't see the problem like what we saw against the likes of Everton, Forest, Brentford etc recently, where it was easy to play out from the back due to those teams not fully committing to a high press or not committing to a press at all high up the pitch.

It's actually very simple what needs doing, but a lot will depend on the sale situation and how quickly a solution can be found.
 
Adnan said:
Because the game in England has changed in the last 10 years with the influx of a new breed of head coach, who attacks from the back and defends from the front. We got a taste of that in the UCL final defeats to Barcelona, when Barcelona not only outplayed us in possession but also collectively pressed us high, which rendered our midfield and backline obsolete. And that wasn't such a big thing in the EPL at the time but those ideas have now started to dominate the EPL at the top where it's extremely important to collectively control the game in the first phase of the build up, which starts with keeper.

Unless your manager is Mourinho and playing direct football with a view to winning ground and aerial duels is your MO against technically strong teams who defend from the front. Then it's important to build the team around players who are technically strong in possession and occupy positions in the first phase of the build up. So the GK, CBs, Fullbacks and deeper midfielders are the key to controlling the game. And Brighton controlled the game against us in midfield because their goalkeeper, CBs and fullbacks provided their midfielders with a strong platform, so they could express themselves due to plenty of possession. That also meant they could play a higher defensive line and press us high up the pitch. You can't control the game with just your midfielders against teams who are technically strong in possesion, aswell as those teams beings adept at pressing high in a compact high block.

Against teams who give us time to play out from the back, we won't see the problem like what we saw against the likes of Everton, Forest, Brentford etc recently, where it was easy to play out from the back due to those teams not fully committing to a high press or not committing to a press at all high up the pitch.

It's actually very simple what needs doing, but a lot will depend on the sale situation and how quickly a solution can be found.
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Nail on the head. DDG cannot play out, lindelof struggles at times against a press, dalot makes mistakes often and it’s made worse when he’s on the left. Fred is a liability against a press, Casemiro has been sloppy in possession in recent games. Collectively it makes it bloody difficult to control a game.
 
Maureen-yo said:
Nail on the head. DDG cannot play out, lindelof struggles at times against a press, dalot makes mistakes often and it’s made worse when he’s on the left. Fred is a liability against a press, Casemiro has been sloppy in possession in recent games. Collectively it makes it bloody difficult to control a game.
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Just changing the keeper will make a difference.




The quote from De Zerbi is also spot on, eventhough he's had the benefit of taking over from Potter, who has created the foundations for him to evolve things further. Klopp and Guardiola also had the benefit of taking over from Rodgers and Pellegrini who had both implemented a proactive attacking play style.

 
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Adnan said:
Just changing the keeper will make a difference.


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That's too much for me. Would give me nightmares. He's so close to calamity a few times there.

Not that I'm happy with De Gea's ball playing. I'd want something between the two.
 
DOTA said:
That's too much for me. Would give me nightmares. He's so close to calamity a few times there.

Not that I'm happy with De Gea's ball playing. I'd want something between the two.
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Need to get Costa
 
Adnan said:
Just changing the keeper will make a difference.




The quote from De Zerbi is also spot on, eventhough he's had the benefit of taking over from Potter, who has created the foundations for him to evolve things further. Klopp and Guardiola also had the benefit of taking over from Rodgers and Pellegrini who had both implemented a proactive attacking play style.

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Another excellent analytical post.
 
Adnan said:
Just changing the keeper will make a difference.




The quote from De Zerbi is also spot on, eventhough he's had the benefit of taking over from Potter, who has created the foundations for him to evolve things further. Klopp and Guardiola also had the benefit of taking over from Rodgers and Pellegrini who had both implemented a proactive attacking play style.

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that’s a great distribution from both steele and the two central defenders.

the “take notes eric” part is a bit strange though. ETH clearly wanted to do the same when entering this season/in pre-season, but quickly realized there was no transferbudget for a goalkeeper, so he had to be pragmatical with De Gea which was the right decision. Rome wasnt built in a day.
 
I wouldn't say we are a counterattacking team. If you look at the raw statistics, we have 53-54% possession on average, and we actually have more away from home which is somewhat surprising. That's not a team setting up to sit off deep and counter, we are actively competing and initiating a press, otherwise the teams at this level with the way the PL is played would be outcompeting us for possession. But they're not. Also, logically it would be strange that the one time to sit off and counter is away from home, when the home team are conditioned to play proactively, yet in this scenario we are winning the possession battle.

So what is the actual problem? I would say the problem is when it comes to away games we concede FAR more goals. We also create less and score less, but we don't score that many in general, but the defending is particularly horrifying and creates the stark difference between home and away form. I think the main differences between an away game and the home game is the energy and proactivity the opposition show. So something about that is causing us a problem with our personnel, both technically and mentally. That would require some further digging into, but I would guess that under pressure we are giving it away in dangerous areas, and there is an increase in individual errors. It would also seem that when the opposition play aggressively as the home side, we are struggling to advance the ball into dangerous areas and create chances. In effect it might be where our weakest links on the ball and mentally in terms of having courage to take the ball, keep calm and play the right option are really showing themselves.
 
ROFLUTION said:
that’s a great distribution from both steele and the two central defenders.

the “take notes eric” part is a bit strange though. ETH clearly wanted to do the same when entering this season/in pre-season, but quickly realized there was no transferbudget for a goalkeeper, so he had to be pragmatical with De Gea which was the right decision. Rome wasnt built in a day.
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I agree with you.

Also don't mind the person tweeting, he's from Norway and is still hurt about Solskjaer getting sacked.
 
ROFLUTION said:
that’s a great distribution from both steele and the two central defenders.

the “take notes eric” part is a bit strange though. ETH clearly wanted to do the same when entering this season/in pre-season, but quickly realized there was no transferbudget for a goalkeeper, so he had to be pragmatical with De Gea which was the right decision. Rome wasnt built in a day.
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Pragmatism is fine as long as Ten Hag acknowledges the experiment can't extend beyond one season. If we end up renewing De Gea's contract we'll be in big trouble.

Same goes for our midfield. You can make some sacrifices in your first season but it won't end well if you keep skimping on your principles.
 
CM10 said:
Pragmatism is fine as long as Ten Hag acknowledges the experiment can't extend beyond one season. If we end up renewing De Gea's contract we'll be in big trouble.

Same goes for our midfield. You can make some sacrifices in your first season but it won't end well if you keep skimping on your principles.
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I’d strongly disagree. Pragmatism is the core of everything in football. We dont have the same money as City who we compete with each year, so there will always be a level of pragmatism. City buys a back-up player like Kalvin Phillips for a shit-ton of money, but we need to develop players like McTominay and do with players like Wout because of constrains. Thats the way we can afford giving Rashford a big contract, signing Casemiro, Pogba, etc. That wont change permanently, I believe. You mention two areas in your post that we need to improve next year, but we need a striker even more. How would we buy upgrades in each area if the money just isnt there

If we only have a certain amount of money and player sales are needed to fund a new goalkeeper, then Eth will have to deal with uncomfortable pragmatic decisions again.

it might be that Kane/important targets costs more, and that we cant get sales of Maguire, VdB, Etc over the line to fund a new goalkeeper. Maybe the perfect fit that Eth wants for a goalkeeper is unattainable. Of course he needs to be pragmatic again next season, unless we magically get unlimited money and FFP constrains dont apply to us.
 
He hasnt completed a single full season & has had arguably just 1 transfer window.
 
ROFLUTION said:
I’d strongly disagree. Pragmatism is the core of everything in football. We dont have the same money as City who we compete with each year, so there will always be a level of pragmatism. City buys a back-up player like Kalvin Phillips for a shit-ton of money, but we need to develop players like McTominay and do with players like Wout because of constrains. Thats the way we can afford giving Rashford a big contract, signing Casemiro, Pogba, etc. That wont change permanently, I believe. You mention two areas in your post that we need to improve next year, but we need a striker even more. How would we buy upgrades in each area if the money just isnt there

If we only have a certain amount of money and player sales are needed to fund a new goalkeeper, then Eth will have to deal with uncomfortable pragmatic decisions again.

it might be that Kane/important targets costs more, and that we cant get sales of Maguire, VdB, Etc over the line to fund a new goalkeeper. Maybe the perfect fit that Eth wants for a goalkeeper is unattainable. Of course he needs to be pragmatic again next season, unless we magically get unlimited money and FFP constrains dont apply to us.
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We've outspent them the last decade.

The problem isn't the lack of money.

The problem is how we use the money.
 
I truly hope we see a change next season.

It's tiring watching us get pinned back routinely against certain teams, but we can never do the same to them.
 
Eddy_JukeZ said:
We've outspent them the last decade.

The problem isn't the lack of money.

The problem is how we use the money.
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Please enlighten me on how this season will be different and how we can magically sign Diogo Costa, Caicedo and Kane/Osimhen all at the same time then
 
To add to the OP, this has been a criticism for a long time and we always hear the same old "you can't just become more dominant in one season, it takes time", yet other clubs seem to hire coaches and you see a drastic change instantly. Yet at United were always in a constant 3 season project every time we get a new manager.

I just don't buy it. I hated LVGs boring football, but he got some really poor players looking comfortable on the ball and dominating possession at least.
 
ROFLUTION said:
Please enlighten me on how this season will be different and how we can magically sign Diogo Costa, Caicedo and Kane/Osimhen all at the same time then
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Irrelevant to what I said.

You were factually incorrect with your statement.

We have literally spent more than City have the past decade(or it's very very close). We're not behind them because we spend much less than them. We're behind them, because they've utilized their resources far better than we have.
 
Big Andy said:
I long for the days where we would turn up to a ground, anywhere in the world, and play our own game and let the other team bend to our will, change their normal style of play to try and match us. For too long we've been the ones setting up not to lose, rather than going all out to win.

I know Fergie would change up away in Europe and pack the midfield, but we'd still play our attacking game around that. The counter attacking football we've played for what seems like forever is exactly why we can't beat a decent team away from home, we are far too passive in away games when we play defensively (badly) and try to play on the break, it invites pressure which we struggle to deal with.
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An improved keeper would improve our playing style. The manager can’t do much if his keeper gives the ball to opposition 20x per game like the Brighton game. I just hope the board is willing to make it happen to help ten Hag to sign new goalkeeper. If we have new keeper who can play from the back and retain possession without panic and a press resistant midfield, we will be much much better to retain possession.
 
There are a lot of reasons why City overtook us lately, but outlay on players is not one of them.

We've spent a very similar amount to them. Problem is, we buy players with zero coherence on how to use them while chopping managers left and right.
 
UNITED ACADEMY said:
An improved keeper would improve our playing style. The manager can’t do much if his keeper gives the ball to opposition 20x per game like the Brighton game. I just hope the board can help ten Hag to sign new goalkeeper. If we have new keeper who can play from the back without panic and a press resistant midfield, we will at be much much better to retain possession.
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I hope so, but I worry Ten Hag will compromise again and just stick with De Gea.

The first thing he should have done while arriving at the club was boot De Gea out. Would have sent a strong signal and we could have used the entire season to further bed in his style instead of this half-half approach he took.
 
Eddy_JukeZ said:
I hope so, but I worry Ten Hag will compromise again and just stick with De Gea.

The first thing he should have done while arriving at the club was boot De Gea out. Would have sent a strong signal and we could have used the entire season to further bed in his style instead of this half-half approach he took.
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It’s not ten Hag but it’s the board and the scouting team. The board needs to be smart enough to construct how to arrange the budget to get players.
 
Eddy_JukeZ said:
There are a lot of reasons why City overtook us lately, but outlay on players is not one of them.

We've spent a very similar amount to them. Problem is, we buy players with zero coherence on how to use them while chopping managers left and right.
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yeah, it probably helps that they’ve had the best manager in the world during that time, and apparently nobody ever wants to leave.. I find it all a bit dubious.. and obviously we only know about the amounts of money they choose to tell us about, let’s not forget that they’re under investigation for breaking premier league financial rules. They could have spent double what we’ve spent for all we know.
 
UNITED ACADEMY said:
It’s not ten Hag but it’s the board and the scouting team. The board needs to be smart enough to construct how to arrange the budget to get players.
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The board didn't decide to keep De Gea this season. Ten Hag did.
 
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