I'm glad we've been saving Veron for European games

Originally posted by mathiaslg:
<strong>

Well, I agree he wasn't quite there tonight, but my point was that he was hardly the only one.

They deserved to win, and rather than complain about Veron, I am simply happy we didn't lose 4-2.</strong><hr></blockquote>

With Keane injured what we have needed was someone to step up and drive the team forward. It seems like Bayer is not a team we can just hope plays like shit and under performs (ie. Chelsea). With all the talk about Veron not playing well because he has to play second fiddle to Keane and Beckham, I expected him to pull his game up a litle after the injuries. But it doesn't seem like he has. I don't doubt he has skill and I don't doubt that he might have set up most of our oppurtunities last night, but if it means that we have this general slacker-don't-give-a-shit attitue then I could care less about having a player like Veron. There was one play where Bayer pushed the ball to their left side touchline to set up a cross and Veron just didn't even bother to follow the ball. I couldn't believe it. I knew he wasn't the greatest defensive player or very physical, but just to stand there and watch as they get an oppurtunity for a clear cross made me so pissed.
What we seemed to lack was any desire for the 50/50 balls. I know we have Scholes and Butt who are determined but tonight they either just fouled the opposition or never came out with the ball...it was just a bad game, and it just seemed as there was no one to lift the team. People have been expecting Veron to be this person, and I think honestly that he has failed at this. Like someone said Keane did more in the little time he was on than Veron did at all. He calmed the game down and made the sensible passes that he usually does. Not passing the ball to the other team in some bumbling counter attack.

I'm happy that we didn't lose either! I think we were very lucky not too. But I choose to attempt to find out why we played so bad, not just to bask in our "fortune."

When it all comes down to it though we want the same thing: some fecking ass kicking by united next week in germany.
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Originally posted by farawaylands:
<strong>
I'm happy that we didn't lose either! I think we were very lucky not too. But I choose to attempt to find out why we played so bad, not just to bask in our "fortune."

When it all comes down to it though we want the same thing: some fecking ass kicking by united next week in germany.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I am hardly basking in our fortune, but I am happy we didn't lose, because we deserved to. The fact is, if our defense had played like our entire midfield or our forwards, it would have been 4-2 or 5-2. I expect more from our entire team, not just one man. That was my point.
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Originally posted by christiepark_boy:
<strong>Veron looked like he was completely shot from around 70 minutes. That's fair, he has been injured, but I was surprised he wasn't substituted.

We looked as though we played the last 20 minutes with 10 men as a result, and we never looked like getting the initiative back after it went 2-2. I think the substitutions when they did happen were about making sure it was no worse.</strong><hr></blockquote>


I disagree. Veron played better in the last 15 minutes than the rest of the game. It looked as if he was not match fit and was trying to last the pace.

He gave his all towards the end of the game and finished it much stronger than he began.
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Originally posted by mathiaslg:
<strong>My outlook was that he played as well (or better than) as any of the other midfielders (barring Nicky), and that being played entirely out of position. He should never have been played in the wide-right position, for he can't control the game from there. When he came into the middle, he was involved in two goals, so that isn't bad. Butt played better, but not all that great. Lets face it, we were lucky to even draw that match, Bayer were the better team. Its all well and good to have a go at Veron, but frankly, Ruud was shite, Ole wasn't doing anything, Giggs was useless for the most part, and while Scholes started off well, he just dropped off after around the 30th minute. Butt was the best midfielder, but only just barely, for he was caught out many a time, and were it not for Blanc and Silvestre, Bayer could have scored a whole lot more.

Quality play list:
1. Silvestre
2. Blanc
3. Wes, I thought he did well enough
4. Butt
5. Veron
....The rest.</strong><hr></blockquote>Agree with all the above.


The team as a whole was awful. I haven't been this disappointed in a performance since Boro'.

Blaming one player (Seba) is tantamount to stupidity and most of the posts in this thread are that, plain stupid.

Giggs kept wandering which cluttered up the middle, Veron was played out right and he's wasted out there. Nicky, by my reckoning, gave the ball away as much as, if not more than, Seba and Scholesy kept bumping into Nicky all the feckin' time.

Ruuds control was awful, Giggsy's dribbling was terrible and like I said, Scholesy & Nicky kept bumping into each other. Seba wasn't much better but he was absolutely no worse.

Face it, the TEAM played like shit. Bayer dominated us in just about every facet of the game and we were lucky to get a draw out of it.

My only hope for the away leg is that Keano can sort it out. Scholesy needs to be on the right and Seba needs to be in the middle, ala Deportivo.

If it means sacrificing Ole, then so be it; after all, even Ole says he likes studying from the bench and then coming on later.

It's easy to sit there and blame Seba but who sent Ruud off down the right before he passed into Ole? Who assisted before Ruud was cropped?

Ahh feck it, like jedi said, you're a fickle bunch of so & so's.
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Originally posted by Marcus:
<strong>

He gave his all towards the end of the game and finished it much stronger than he began.</strong><hr></blockquote>

that's how he usually plays. he strolls on the pitch as cool as ever and then realizes with 10 minutes left we've let two goals in and are up against the wall. it's nice that he can turn it on, but it would be better for the whole match.

but i have to agree with comments about the team playing shit. i'm just pissed because of veron stepping up to the big challenge but never really doing it. i think our midfield was a muddle. we had scholes, butt, veron, giggs and solskjaer all running around pretty much wherever they wanted to. i know we are in a bind with beckham out but we do have people capable to play a normal 4-4-2 with ole and ruud up front...and giggs staying on the wing.
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Originally posted by Nistelrooy10:
<strong>He was the best player tonight, although he had couple of bad moves. Assisted for Ruud's penalty and had some other great passes. He was played out of position, and United did not have a midfield. Only but and Scholes were the ones making tackles.</strong><hr></blockquote>


<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />

Even I can't be as blinkered as that :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Roy:
<strong>

True

But yet, he just wasn't there

He was so lethargic

Hardly tracked back after his man and when he did, he never got anywhere near him

I'd understand this if at least he would've added something offensively, but honestly he added nothing

He seemed afraid to make any physical contact, he went down for about 3 tackles all night and then these were just pathetic really

I agree that he, like other players, doesn't play as well when played out-of-position but there are basic things, like stopping the ball or giving a 2-yard pass that one has to do well at this level, no matter where you're played

I'm very disappointed to be honest, it seems the lad just can't find any sort of consistent form.</strong><hr></blockquote>

So would you advocate that he be sold if offers come in (lazio's waiting...)?
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Originally posted by mathiaslg:
<strong>

Well, I agree he wasn't quite there tonight, but my point was that he was hardly the only one. Veron is never a physical player, so we have to realize this by now. Offensively, he wasn't bad, and made United's most dangerous moves, hell, he made all of United's moves. No offense, if Ruud could have controlled a pass tonight, United would be in better shape than they are. But back to Veron, he only made a couple of bad passes at the end, and granted, one ended as a dangerous break, but then again, Nicky gave away a stupid ball and Bayer had a 6 on 4 break then too. Were it not for some good defending by Blanc and Silvestre, it could have been bad today. United, as a whole, played like shite, and made Bayer look bloody brilliant. They deserved to win, and rather than complain about Veron, I am simply happy we didn't lose 4-2.</strong><hr></blockquote>

agreed with most of that.

We're very lucky that we got away with a draw, but atleast we've got a chance next week, one things for sure, our midfield won't perform as badly as they did yesterday....
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Actually it was Fergie who was to blame last night, IMO.
Tactics were ineffective. We didn't play 4-1-4-1, we played 4-4-2 with players out of position. That's why midfield was swamped and won by the Germans. Fergie's lack of tactical fluidity let him down. He thought he was on to a winner after Deportivo, but should have reverted to 4-4-2 with Solksjaer up front.

Giggs played awful - out of position.
Solsjkar ineffective - out of position.
Veron crap - way out of position.

Scholes was "the man" last night, and apart from first 30 mins he failed to deliver. I think Veron should have been played in the centre.

Next week I hope it's:

Van Nistelrooy Solskjaer
Giggs Keane Veron Scholes
.....
 
Originally posted by jedi master yoda:
<strong>


know what jedi....jedi master think this bloke may have a point here....Lazio fans truly appreciated the Veron masterclass even when he sometimes `underperformed', shame Utd fans don't get behind their players the same way, shame indeed...but don't you worry Pier, all these fickle imbeciles will be right back going gaga over him after a masterclass display in the Bay Arena....after all, with all due respect, Lazio are no means the same huge club Utd are....a whole lot more glory-hunters over here, mate
;) </strong><hr></blockquote>


Quite right, jedi master! You should be at Olympic Stadium a few weeks ago when Seba came to watch his old (and future :D ) teammates: all the fans chanting his name. No glory-hunters here. But to be honest, i'd love to have some of them here: it'd mean we turned into a top three world club, instead of a top ten. :cool:
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Originally posted by Piersifal:
<strong>


Quite right, jedi master! You should be at Olympic Stadium a few weeks ago when Seba came to watch his old (and future :D ) teammates: all the fans chanting his name. No glory-hunters here. But to be honest, i'd love to have some of them here: it'd mean we turned into a top three world club, instead of a top ten. :cool: </strong><hr></blockquote>

are you saying that LAZIO are in the top ten sides in the world .... <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />

REAL
BARCA
DEPOR
MANUTD
ARSE
ROMA
INTER
JUVE
BAYER
BAYERN


just off the top of me head like ;)
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Ha ah ha, it's getting too easy to beat you, Jobt. Seriously. Now go back and check the last five years european classment, based on results. One off season doesn't change the classment so fast, and this applies to your season, too. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />

Study the basics, before posting comic lines... <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />

ass roma among the top ten, ha ha ha! <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />
 
Originally posted by Piersifal:
<strong>Ha ah ha, it's getting too easy to beat you, Jobt. Seriously. Now go back and check the last five years european classment, based on results. One off season doesn't change the classment so fast, and this applies to your season, too. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />

Study the basics, before posting comic lines... <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />

ass roma among the top ten, ha ha ha! <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

LOL!
he's even put Bayer in there !!!
they've never won anything in their life(until now)

ah the one eyedness of it.I wonder who he's missed off from the list...
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Veron played well you punks!!1 He had a hand in the penalty and nearly created a third before we conceded. Scholes was the shit. He did not support Veron in the center. As for Phil Neville, God knows why SAF put him on insteasd of O'shea!
Leave Veron alone!!!!! :mad:


However now Keane is back we will triumph in the ARENA!! <img src="graemlins/keano.gif" border="0" alt="[Keano]" />
 
Originally posted by kemo:
<strong>As for Phil Neville, God knows why SAF put him on insteasd of O'shea!
Leave Veron alone!!!!! :mad:
</strong><hr></blockquote>
:confused: oh i don't know...off the top of my head, coz he's a natural rightback!!!!!!!!....bloody hell...o shea's a central defender with very, very little CL experience....sheesh, kemo, what's with you.....just started to like your posts and you post this garb....hell, even davo sometimes makes sense!!
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Originally posted by Marcus:
<strong>


I disagree. Veron played better in the last 15 minutes than the rest of the game. </strong><hr></blockquote>

I'll check the vid...my impression was that at the end of the game Veron was struggling - running around in circles, chasing players he wasn't going to catch, not tracking back, barely on the ball, and when he was then equally likely to give it away.

Happy to debate whether I agree with you that this was better than the rest of his performance last night ! (cheap gag - i do agree he had a hand in the goals, but I do really beieve he is short of fitness, and if the same situation arises next Tuesday late in the game we need to know which of our assessments is correct).
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