Il Fenomeno Draft - R1 - Himan vs Fortitude

With players at their career peak, who would win?

  • Total voters
    17
  • Poll closed .
harms said:
George Best, I'd imagine? Not that they've played a lot directly against each other, but Best did include him in his best ever XI.

They were quite fond of each other :lol:
leeds-united-footballer-billy-bremner-with-his-son-billy-who-has-a-large-poster-of-hero-george-best-on-the-bedroom-wall-843701.jpg


@Gio will probably know more about Scotland's performance at the 1974 World Cup, when they've drawn with Brazil (Rivellino, Jairzinho) & Yugoslavia (Džajić).

The games against AC Milan in 1973 (Rivera) and Netherlands in 1971 (Cruyff) are probably worth looking at. Both were close losses.

Edit: just stumbled upon this :lol:



There's some good stuff there:
http://www.mightyleeds.co.uk/matches/19650327.htm
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:lol: :lol:
 
Himannv said:
I don’t agree with the argument against Desailly and Bremner. I mean, if anyone is stopping Diego, it is this duo + Beckenbauer. Desailly in particular might well be the best suited player to pull it off.

I do get that Diego is hell to deal with for almost any defense, but this is about as good as it gets against him really.
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Yeah, both are tailor made to counter Maradona, especially Desailly.

Peak Desailly has the tactical discipline, strength and ability to hound Maradona in the middle and not allow him much space. Probably one of the best fits against Maradona actually.
 
Himannv said:
I don’t agree with the argument against Desailly and Bremner. I mean, if anyone is stopping Diego, it is this duo + Beckenbauer. Desailly in particular might well be the best suited player to pull it off.

I do get that Diego is hell to deal with for almost any defense, but this is about as good as it gets against him really.
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Yeah it's a solid pairing. Nice balance as well between Desailly's size and power next to Bremner's low centre of gravity and niggly ball-winning ability. Any players you'd suggest @Fortitude who would be better suited to such a task?
 
Defensive wise its a nice setup from himan but voted for fortitude as personally icant see how would that team work offensive wise. Its a shame for h as fort has some issues defensive wise.
 
Gio said:
Yeah it's a solid pairing. Nice balance as well between Desailly's size and power next to Bremner's low centre of gravity and niggly ball-winning ability. Any players you'd suggest @Fortitude who would be better suited to such a task?
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I have a few who I believe would make Maradona's life really difficult, of the CM's: Neeskens, Davids, Wolfgang (not drafted but I'm sure you know who I mean), Matthaus (had a famous game against him, albeit the older version), Robson's '84 performance cannot be ignored, but this is the more mature, less emotionally disrupted Maradona, so not sure it still applies. Don't know if Tigana has the actual strength needed, but he's another that comes to mind.

There's a bunch of South Americans to throw in with Mauro Silva being probably the top pick.

Makelele and Kante and this type of player, I'd fancy before Desailly. I've not mentioned Rijkaard, either, although he's, for me, the best DM of all-time - taller players, particularly hitting the 6ft mark, are just immediately put at a disadvantage, lack the agility and the balance via centre of gravity - they're prone to doing well and just having an error or two in them that wouldn't be made against a less agile, awkward opponent, in my opinion. I watched a fair amount of footage of Milan vs Napoli because of the draft, and it's amazing to see him [Maradona] just cut through them time after time. There's one point when Maldini, no less, goes in two-footed - after the midfield and Baresi have been turned inside out - out of frustration, which I've never seen Maldini lose his rag before!

With regards to Bremner, his temperament stands out before his game in this one. He's short, he's quick over the first few metres and he loves the dogged stuff, but, he's a loose cannon for me. If we're supposedly playing this by modern reffing, he's actually someone I'd target because, with enough pushing, he'll give me exactly what I want.

My #1 man-marker of all-time, if I were to set a single player against Maradona, though, is Vogts. Of course, given their positions, it's not viable.
 
Synco said:
Really like that matchup, two interesting teams.

Imo, @Himannv's defensive setup provides a perfect platform for the creative forces from deep, Beckenbauer and Marcelo. (Can't say anything about about Bezsonov.)

But, considering the solid 3 man defense + Desailly, I may have preferred Xavi in Bremners place, and Sivori in the hole, for more offensive impact. Some may say Xavi and Beckenbauer would get in each other's way, but I don't think so. Although I can understand that the element Bremner brings is regarded useful as well.

@Fortitude's team obviously has an insanely strong attack with Maradona + MVB, midfield, and central defense. Would like to know more about the FBs and Bene. Not sure about Mbappe on the left, as cutting in from the right seems so characteristic for his offensive power. But I'm open to be convinced.

Edit: Scrap the point about Mbappe, just watched some footage and he seems to come from the left way more than my prejudice has it.
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Only just seeing the edit. :lol:
 
Fortitude said:
My #1 man-marker of all-time, if I were to set a single player against Maradona, though, is Vogts. Of course, given their positions, it's not viable.
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Mourinho would definitely play Vogts at DM against him
 
Fortitude said:
Don't know if Tigana has the actual strength needed, but he's another that comes to mind.
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Tigana had a very swift decline, which is understandable for a player who relies so much on his engine, so keep in mind that it's not his peak version, but the sight of Maradona literally wiping the floor with him remains one of the most impressive bits of obscure football footage that I've seen. He was unstoppable that night, even though he had somehow failed to score or to assist (also hit the bar with his free kick after Tigana was a bit too late to the party).
 
Synco said:
Yeah, I made a mess of that post by not reading the writeups properly. Most of it can just be ignored, except perhaps for the Xavi/Sivori argument.
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I was hoping for solid video evidence as Mbappe on the left does look out of place given we see so much of him on the right. I do remember he was storming on the left a fair amount of the time for Monaco, but that can only be displayed at PSG whilst Neymar is/has been injured.

Luckily, that video was perfect for the purpose of showing the full gamut of LWF play from him.
Physiocrat said:
Mourinho would definitely play Vogts at DM against him
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Wonder if it'd be bought into in a draft?
harms said:
Tigana had a very swift decline, which is understandable for a player who relies so much on his engine, so keep in mind that it's not his peak version, but the sight of Maradona literally wiping the floor with him remains one of the most impressive bits of obscure football footage that I've seen. He was unstoppable that night, even though he had somehow failed to score or to assist (also hit the bar with his free kick after Tigana was a bit too late to the party).
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He was so slight even at his peak, which is why I wasn't sure in terms of pure, physical strength if he could go at it with a bull of a player in Maradona, even if he could match his movements, acceleration, balance and slights of foot.

That footage is pretty damning! Poor guy is sent flying!
 
Enigma_87 said:


Liverpool and Leicester do it on consistent basis.

It boils down to the LCM and RCM protecting the flanks when they do push up.
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That was an interesting video. It seems that for Leicester and the Dippers they play more like a diamond but with wide forwards in that the LCM and RCM play as shutters do in the diamond.

All this said Himan has got a back three so should still have a back five even if both wing-backs go up except it will be an M rather than a W. Even if Der Kaiser goes forward I'm sure the German side of he mid 90s had Sammer bomb forward and both wing-backs so there is a precedent for it,
 
harms said:
His fullbacks, who are probably 2 of his weakest players, aren't really exposed here.
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Marcelo can potentially rip Jardine a new one here. He was incredible going forward at his peak, the most skillful dribbler in that Madrid team and a huge asset in terms of opening up defenses and always providing an option whether it was overlapping or cutting inside and taking on multiple defenders by himself. And he did it at the biggest stage while winning multiple CLs on the trot, so I wouldn't ignore him here in terms of providing that width and can expect him having a great game here, he'll get a lot of space and would have one of those games where he actually impacts the match out wide like a proper winger, having so much of the ball and making constant inroads.
 
Fortitude said:
I was hoping for solid video evidence as Mbappe on the left does look out of place given we see so much of him on the right.
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I found lots of scenes, at least. Even the generic "cut inside" argument doesn't work against it, as he's right-footed.
Fortitude said:
I do remember he was storming on the left a fair amount of the time for Monaco, but that can only be displayed at PSG whilst Neymar is/has been injured.
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If I don't misremember, I saw PSG playing Neymar/Di Maria half-wide, with Mbappe roaming as a mobile second striker. Which may explain him drifting to the left, for example when Neymar goes inside or plays him through otherwise. (Like in this scene.) So I don't see any issue with him being deployed there full time, as long as he's allowed to move towards goal. Jusufi is important there, and your concept gives him the fitting role.
 
Moby said:
Marcelo can potentially rip Jardine a new one here. He was incredible going forward at his peak, the most skillful dribbler in that Madrid team and a huge asset in terms of opening up defenses and always providing an option whether it was overlapping or cutting inside and taking on multiple defenders by himself. And he did it at the biggest stage while winning multiple CLs on the trot, so I wouldn't ignore him here in terms of providing that width and can expect him having a great game here, he'll get a lot of space and would have one of those games where he actually impacts the match out wide like a proper winger, having so much of the ball and making constant inroads.
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But you're talking about Marcelo on the overlap behind none other than Cristiano Ronaldo, which is an entirely different ball game and set of distractions for the opposition to dither and decide against. For the NT, there's Neymar, so it's the same thing. Here, Marcelo is supposed to be getting up from behind his halfway line with no decoy against a team with a WF behind him that is ridiculously skilful - is he supposed to just ignore him, or go right back to help the LCB (who is Hulshoff, by the way, so he will be needing help!)

My team is attacking, not defending, which puts the onus on his side to get the ball, and then beat the press, and then take the ball all the way back down the field - that's a tremendous load; Marcelo would be done inside 60 minutes if that was the executed plan.

Wing-backs need means inside of them to get their runs going - with Beckenbauer sitting so deep and so few offensive runners, that won't be easy.
 
Synco said:
I found lots of scenes, at least. Even the generic "cut inside" argument doesn't work against it, as he's right-footed.

If I don't misremember, I saw PSG playing Neymar/Di Maria half-wide, with Mbappe roaming as a mobile second striker. Which may explain him drifting to the left, for example when Neymar goes inside or plays him through otherwise. (Like in this scene.) So I don't see any issue with him being deployed there full time, as long as he's allowed to move towards goal. Jusufi is important there, and your concept gives him the fitting role.
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Yes, his roaming is important, for me as that ability you describe aids the midfield and there is still the threat of him going on the outside and to the byline.

I'm just happy that the concept is feasible. Bergomi at least has a strong point of distraction on the outside of him.
 
Šjor Bepo said:
Defensive wise its a nice setup from himan but voted for fortitude as personally icant see how would that team work offensive wise. Its a shame for h as fort has some issues defensive wise.
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yeah basically this.

Loved Himannv setup initially and probably another mobile forward would've tilted it in his favor.
 
Himannv said:
Just want some feedback. Who do people think would have been an ideal forward in this setup in place of Sivori?
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Dont think Sivori is the issue, at least not in my book. You have one defensive body to many and its hurting you on the offensive front.
Desailly offers nothing, Bremner very little, Xavi would naturally drop back and run the game so you are left with just two strikers up.
Either a back 4 or Xavi in deeper position with additional 10/winger would be a much better setup overall.
 
Himannv said:
Just want some feedback. Who do people think would have been an ideal forward in this setup in place of Sivori?
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Roberto Baggio. There's a lack of penetration up front, then you have Xavi as supplier. He's like Modric in some sense, and his best attribute is central playmaking. He looks lost there in 5-3-2 system. Iniesta would be a better choice, imho.
 
Isotope said:
Roberto Baggio. There's a lack of penetration up front, then you have Xavi as supplier. He's like Modric in some sense, and his best attribute is central playmaking. He looks lost there in 5-3-2 system. Iniesta would be a better choice, imho.
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Yeah, Baggio is a very good call. Villa too. Rivaldo perhaps, Elkjaer, Sheva..

Basically someone who can run into space and capitalize on Xavi's passes.
 
harms said:
George Best, I'd imagine? Not that they've played a lot directly against each other, but Best did include him in his best ever XI.

They were quite fond of each other :lol:
leeds-united-footballer-billy-bremner-with-his-son-billy-who-has-a-large-poster-of-hero-george-best-on-the-bedroom-wall-843701.jpg


@Gio will probably know more about Scotland's performance at the 1974 World Cup, when they've drawn with Brazil (Rivellino, Jairzinho) & Yugoslavia (Džajić).

The games against AC Milan in 1973 (Rivera) and Netherlands in 1971 (Cruyff) are probably worth looking at. Both were close losses.

Edit: just stumbled upon this :lol:



There's some good stuff there:
http://www.mightyleeds.co.uk/matches/19650327.htm
Click to expand...
Aye, Bremner had a fine tournament - one of the outstanding central midfielders on show. Particularly impressive against the Brazilians where we drew 0-0 "thanks in no small part to the iron will of Bremner".
 
Fortitude said:
Good game, Himannv. I haven't checked the score, so don't know what the outcome is.

---

If you don't vote, do you actually get to see the outcome, or does it just reveal once the time's up?
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Depends of the poll settings, but we hide the results — before that managers often voted taking the current score in mind, sometimes even “compensating” for what they thought was an unfair result (or making a close tie a draw because they thought that neither team deserved to lose).
 
Ah right.

Cheers, and thanks for the pity on the newbie asking you all these basic questions. :lol:
 
Enigma_87 said:
Yeah, Baggio is a very good call. Villa too. Rivaldo perhaps, Elkjaer, Sheva..

Basically someone who can run into space and capitalize on Xavi's passes.
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Sivori is likened to Maradona. He might be that type of forward, but I don't know much about him.
 
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