I think we have been too careless with possession and open in the midfield. These selected players are generally safe with their possession. We need the basics to be done right, nothing fanciful.
Onana
AWB Varane Martinez Shaw
Amrabat or Mainoo
Hannibal or Mount Bruno
Antony Hojlund Garnacho
This midfield has energy, tackling ability and ball retention. We press high and hard against most teams except top teams.
Attack: Play the through ball when the right run is made, otherwise keep the ball and circulate. We have been losing the ball too much: all three forwards need to improve in this.
I guess it is not that different from Ten Hag; I’m just dropping McT and Rashford.
..................Hojlund...................................(some 16, 17 or 18 year old)
Rashford....Bruno....Mount......................(Garnacho, Antony, Diallo)
........Amrabat...Mainoo............................(Casemiro, McT)
Shaw....Maguire....Varane.....AWB...........(Reguillon, Lindelof, Martinez when available, Dallot, Evans)
If anyone plays poorly in the first half, they are subbed with someone in parentheses. If someone plays poorly for two matches straight, they do not start for two matches. ETH has to get back to the basics of managing and that means reward good play and punish poor play.
4-3-3 play on the counter
Garnacho -- Hojlund-- Rashford
Bruno
Case-mainoo
Shaw Martinez varane awb
Heaton
We have seen in the CL that Hojlund loves to run behind ..
So let's stay a low block and hit on the counter
Nothing in the world is better than a goal scored in 3 passes
We need a tactical vhange to stop midfield getting overrun.i would revert back to 2 pivots and a CM. 2 WBs to bomb forward. A crossing winger and 2 strikers, one to drop off into AM position when not around the box. Lopsided with the winger, but we get very little out of 2 inverted wingers as it is.
Goalie Shaw Verane Martinez Dalot Mainoo Amrabat Pivot Casemiro CM btb role. Antony on L W or Garnacho on RW to put crosses in from the byline. Bruno or Mount to play high up as SS then they dropping into AM spot when deeper. Hojlund as the battering ram upfront This is with the players available and if all fit of course. Magure McTom and Rashford could come off bench if needed.
Nah, he has to apologise and show some contrition. Feck that! I still don't blame him. Ten Hag will drop Varane, Martial and Rashford and just report them as ill. He won't call them out for being crap or not putting a shift in. He could have done the same with Sancho.
The key for every tactic, this included, is to function in the start is to provide both width and penetration on both sides, with the aim to stretch the defensive organisation of the opponent with width and create trouble in spaces that opens more centrally. I think our squad has a good amount of players who can operate and hurt opposition in half spaces, most likely Mason Mount and Bruno Fernandes.
#2 Shorten the distances between the lines
As OP correctly suggests, we concede too many counters and too many chances with players finding themselves trying to cover too much space. Most often it is due to inability to play a higher defensive line with Harry Maguire and the fact that our advanced midfielders, Scott McTominay and Bruno Fernandes, are pushing too high. In addition to that, without anyone to step alongside DM, most lately Amrabat, we are wide open and it looks too easy for opponents to transition and catch us on the break, creating dangerous situations. That's the reason why these setups include Raphael Varane, who shares a greater amount of pace compared to Maguire, but also full back inverting or double pivot setup. It’s practically self-explained - higher defensive line, less trouble in front of our own goal. Also, it’s a lot easier to build your attack if you win a ball higher up in the opponent's half than it is to start building over and over from deep areas. Is the attack the best defence ? Yes, if you ask me, but if we can’t finish with a shot on goal between 5-10 seconds after we win the ball back we should remain calm, regroup and start our attack more structurally.
#3 Wide base in the first phase of play
To circulate the ball in an appropriate way around the opponent's first line of press all these setups create a wide base of three players, each in their own way - left/right back dropping in line with centre backs or one of the midfielders from double pivot. Most perfectly, with required time to adopt, this should be acceptable to the players during the match and what is required according to the opponent and where the ball as it should be the chase with #1 and #4. This is where the importance of inverted full back and left footed LCB comes to life - that is why Lisandro Martinez is important and we should be looking for at least decent backup to deal with his absence better than it was a case this season. Of course, as I pointed out, in some setups Shaw can drop alongside two centre backs to ensure we have a left foot passer on the left side of the base. With one of the full backs inverting to create numerical superiority in the middle, the opponent will naturally be forced to be narrow, if not - they will be outnumbered in the middle which can be deadly for them. That opens a direct passing lane to wingers, on one or another side, so we can progress the ball further if the opponent defends in a narrow shape. Also, my setups prefer Dalot to AWB mostly because I personally rate his basic technique slightly better, but as soon as the market opens we should look for an improvement.
#4 Controlling events with an extra man in the midfield of the pitch
Last, but not least important, the principle is to create a square or “box” in midfield with the aim to control a game and events on the pitch through possession. Not only that your chances arise when you outnumber opposition in midfield but also, alongside with a three man base mention in #3, it creates a strong base for attacking players to apply a high press. The most popular way of creating such a box is an inverted role for your full back. As this role is evolving it is slowly putting to bed the classical full back role which requires covering long distances and pumping crosses into the box from wide areas. More positional play, less distance to cover, simple as that. Even Jurgen Klopp whose system benefited greatly to Andrew Robertson and TAA decided to move the former in the central area which led to their very good form at the end of last season and TAA registered most of his assists from last season in that period. Lately, that role is “tweaked” even more as we can see players who are naturally centre backs playing a full back: John Stones, Ben White, Joules Kounde, Joško Gvardiol, Jurrien Timber etc. The reason is, alongside their physicality, is that they can easily drop to centre back position making a back four once and if the opponent manages to play through your high press. That is why I wanted us to sign Timber or Pavard last summer, but unfortunately they signed for Arsenal and Inter. Also, whoever is positioned wide at the three man base must be comfortable in defending wide areas. That tweak of roles made teams with these setup less vulnerable in wide areas.
CONCLUSION: As you can see all four key principles are more or less mutually connected, so to this setup to function you have to fulfil all of these tasks as a team. My preferred team shape is somewhere between A and D. B and C are including different dynamics with Shaw pushing higher and I’m personally not a fan of that kind of role with full backs, but sometimes you have to be pragmatic with options you have and Shaw can be a real threat from the left. For me, the key to winning a football game is controlling “the chaos” or knowing what to do in both offensive and defensive transitions.
First of all, this side isn't anywhere near good enough. Huge changes need to be made. At a minimum, I'd like an upgrade at right back, long term replacements for Casemiro and Varane, a more established midfielder than Gore and serious competition for Højlund. There are also potential question marks over Onana and Amad and that's before you look at strengthening the depth of the squad. If Rashford was fully fit and firing, then of course he would start over Garnacho, but he isn't, so I would sell him along with Bruno and a whole host of so-called established players.
The one thing I like about this lineup is the composition of the midfield. It looks a lot more solid than anything we currently field. Of course, Mount could come in for Gore. Though as previously stated, I'd be entering the market for a more established player than Gore, whilst also finding a long term replacement for Casemiro.
Obviously I'd be looking to the academy with a view to taking a few of them on tour in the Summer and potentially entering the first team squad next season. Amass, Jack Fletcher and Lacey namely.
I'd accept the sins of those who came before me and immediately commit, without any flexibility whatsoever, to my vision of team that will dominate games on the ball. A return to the days of LVG but this time with a few goals.
Amad, Pellestri, Gore, Shoretire, Hannibal etc. on bench.
Bruno, Rashford, Sancho, Varane, Casemiro, Lindelof, Evans, Eriksen, VdB, Martial are the past and either has beens, not good enough or vastly overpaid for their role in the team - we need to look to the future. Immediate young and cheap signings made in CB, CM, RB, CF positions. Next season Amrabat, Maguire, Dalot all phased out, probably Antony as well.
Squad needs the mother of all overhauls, I'd rather do it now, finish 15th and then start from a genuine reset point , trusting in Mainoo, Licha, Hojlund, Amad etc. whilst signing young, very fast and technical players. Sign only players 23 and under etc.
Well the first thing is to thank Lindelof for his "services". After that Id guess
Onana
Dalot Maguire Varane Shaw
Armabat Casemiro
Rashford Bruno Garnacho
Hojlund
I'd be fired within 3 weeks and the club would probably get weekly fines for 'not playing their strongest line up' but I'd cut most of the team, bring in the youth and tell the players they have let down the fans and the badge, and they need to show their hunger to get back into the team.
This would be my team for most games, especially top half. Genuinely can't decide between Dalot and AWB at right back so I'd have to see their attitude etc in training.
We've been getting ran though too easily for a long time now and I'd rather go for stability. Against weaker teams I'd replace a midfielder for Bruno.
Really needs that top three to be at it though.
Edit - if bringing Greenwood back is an option I'd do that and he'd take RW.
Early 2000's Milan is the inspiration. I dont think i'm being serious just thought it'd be a fun formation to play for a match.
I'd probably be doing more or less what ten hag is doing and be unhappy with a lot of my options and the obvious results they lead to.
I think i'd want to be doing more or less the same thing every week against every team so that rules counter attack out. I'd want to at the very least have a decent share of possession, anything below 45% would bother me. I'm not that attached to high press or tiki taka possession domination and wouldn't lean too heavily on either style so it'd probably be a mid press something close to Real Madrid. I'd be a bit wary of Bruno particularly against stronger teams but would feel bad about it as hes been a good player for us. I'd probably play him against all the weaker teams and be pretty happy to have him against them. Just feels like a position and player that isn't ideal with current tactics.
Idea is that Martial can hold the ball with his back to goal/win fouls, as a ten he can receive the ball, his touch is decent enough, can shield, can also drop a shoulder turn and pass. He has a decent enough relationship with Rashford so having him close to him, they can hopefully get some combinations going.
Idea is if we win the ball, we can ping the ball into Martial who drops in, which allows Rashford/Garnacho to get on his bike, stretch the Liverpool defence. Same with Garnacho.
Is there another Martial I'm unaware of? He can't shield for s***. His 1st touch is trash. His decision making and positional awareness is worse. He does fall over a lot so I guess he'd win some fouls. I like the idea of a 4-4-2.
I'm curious why so many are mentioning Mount in their best lineups. Look at his form. His last PL goal was almost a year ago in December 2022. He managed a grand total of 3 goals and 2 assists last year in the PL for Chelsea and he's got 0 assists and 0 goals for us. Can understand a little more if he's playing deeper but I'm not convinced he's got the defensive nous to do that role. If the hope is that he returns to his good form from Chelsea then surely you have to remove Bruno from the team (or shift him to the right) as Mounts best role at Chelsea was AM. It's one of the many reasons why his signing was dumb as feck.
Thank you to everyone who replied to this thread. Even those who vehemently hated my line up. There were some really interesting ideas and perspectives put out and some obvious patterns and themes which emerged.
I am going to follow up on this exercise by doing a line up of the players currently available. Which is a fair and valid point.
With everyone fit (would have been working on this from the start of the season).
In possession (first phase):
Onana
Lindelof Varane Martinez
Dalot Casimero
Hojlund Bruno Shaw Rashford
Sancho / Martial
The most crucial difference to Ten Hag here is the 3+2 build-up as opposed to the 3+1. This has several advantages.
If the opponent presses with a narrow 4-4-2, one of the wide defenders is free to step out and pick a pass. Even if the pivots and the attacking midfielders are pressed 2 vs 2, the false 9 can drop in and create a 5 vs 4 overload in the middle.
If the three defenders are pressed, the wide ones can go really wide to stretch the opposing forwards. Onana can step out to make it a 4 vs 3.
If the opponent presses all 3 defenders plus the double pivot, it means Bruno and Shaw would have a 2 vs 1 overload in the middle against their sole DM. The press can be by-passed through long balls to Hojlund also.
A situation where the oppponent is cutting off passing lanes to the pivot can be fixed by moving Dalot wide. If untracked, he can carry the ball up the pitch. If tracked, it would open space in the middle for Shaw to drop into.
Player rotations would be key here. It might look odd to have Shaw in the left half-space, but it would be a similar role to Xhaka at Arsenal. He can make runs that drag away defenders to allow Rashford to cut inside and shoot. Or you can have 4 vs 3 overloads on that side with Lisandro, Casimero and Rashford combining to allow Shaw to hang it up to the back stick for Hojlund or cut-back for Bruno or Sancho.
Buildup on the right would focus on Hojlund making outside to inside runs from the right that stretches the opponent’s defence, while the more technically capable false 9 drops in to support the build-up. Then Bruno or Dalot are very capable of making the switch over to Rashford and underlapping Shaw on the far side.
There may also be times where Dalot wants to make overlapping third-man runs or recieve wide. In this instance, Shaw would have to drop in alongside Casimero. This is to ensure that there are always 3 + 2 narrow and compact to protect against opposing counterattacks and to ensure we can press high up the pitch and early.
But if we must defend without the ball for a spell, we can interchange between two defensive shapes depending on the state of the game.
Defensive shape 1 (442): high to mid block
If Dalot is closer to the right-back position than Shaw is to left-back
Onana
Dalot Lindelof Varane Martinez
Hojlund Bruno Casimero Shaw
Sancho / Martial - Rashford
If Shaw is closer to the left-back position than Dalot is to right-back
Onana
Lindelof Varane Martinez Shaw
Dalot Bruno Casimero Rashford
Hojlund - Sancho / Martial
This kind would be a positional-based mid to high block that is fairly compact and moves together. Having a pacy striker like Rashford or Hojlund always up top would be crucial for transitions on the counter.
Defensive shape 2 (541): low block.
If we’re really under the cosh and we need to park the bus…
I'd just go 4-4-2 just for notalgia. With Bruno playing off Hojilund during the attacking phase, and dropping back to midfield during the defensive phase.
I'd just go 4-4-2 just for notalgia. With Bruno playing off Hojilund during the attacking phase, and dropping back to midfield during the defensive phase.
7=0 was bad enough, play that team on Sunday we're looking at double figures unless certain players have had holy healing water or some such shit poured over them!
7=0 was bad enough, play that team on Sunday we're looking at double figures unless certain players have had holy healing water or some such shit poured over them!
