Lawlor was the one compiling informations and he didn't leave with SAF, though he was a pen and paper kind of scout. The part that would have been missed was the input from Martin Ferguson who was the interface between SAF and the scouting department and the "head of networking". Now I would be extremely surprised if Martin Ferguson refused to share his input on the 2013 summer potential dealings.
If Moyes got his way...
- Thread starter Sir Erik ten Hag
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Lawlor was the one compiling informations and he didn't leave with SAF, though he was a pen and paper kind of scout. The part that would have been missed was the input from Martin Ferguson who was the interface between SAF and the scouting department and the "head of networking". Now I would be extremely surprised if Martin Ferguson refused to share his input on the 2013 summer potential dealings.
Stuart Mathieson: "It is understood that when he ( Moyes) arrived at United, his predecessor Sir Alex Ferguson’s system and research wasn’t as detailed and the key information was allegedly in chief scout Jim Lawlor’s head rather than an easily accessible database for the backroom staff."
"While the system suited Ferguson, it left Moyes playing catch-up when he officially took over at United last July."
https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...vid-moyes-overhauls-manchester-united-6751601
The problem was that we had a non existent data science department and a scouting network so basic that it was derived of chief scouts who were pen and paper guys like Jim Lawlor and Derek Langley. Lawlor was said to have all the reports stored in his head, and Derek Langley who was the head of recruitment jotted all the information down via pen and paper. And Fergie had his brother Martin, scouting Europe. Fergie also used to send his backroom team to scout players. And one example being Jimmy Ryan, who was sent to look at a Norwegian CB (Ronny Johnsen) and whilst scouting Johnsen he spotted a young Solskjaer playing in the game. And Solskjaer was signed after being scouted that one time according to Jimmy Ryan via MUTV.
We did have a number of part time scouts but our scouting was dated compared to our rivals who had stolen a march on us. And when Fergie retired, the structure he had built collapsed and needed modernising.
But even though the set-up was dated and needed modernising, it worked due to the genius of Fergie and due to the process being aligned and streamlined for Fergie the manager/director of football.
That's why it's important to have one person on the football side of the club to oversee the football departments which goes a long way towards streamlining the operation. And in the the modern game with 20 to 25 departments to oversee on the football side of the club, it's not the job of the first team manager but rather of someone who is experienced on the structural side of the football club.
I doubt Moyes had a chance to do much with the scouting network. Other than the assistants he brought in (Round, Phil Neville, the clueless-looking old chap) I think the only person he was responsible for bringing in was Murtough.
It’s all a long time ago, but I’m fairly sure the problem he had with the scouts was that their reporting wasn’t up to the standard he was accustomed to.
So you agree that it was right for Moyes to let go of SAF’s men and bring his own once he became manager.
All that would have done is communicate to everyone that he couldn't do the job.
I'm not saying the football set-up wasn't old school compared to other top clubs at the time, it understandably would be with a 71 year old in charge and a lot of the same people in prominent positions for a long time. All I'm saying is there obviously were scouting reports.
With the benefit of hindsight 8 years on from witnessing the calamitous clusterfeck that was Moyes tenure, I think we can safely say no it probably wasn't the right decision.
Strange getting rid of Fergusons staff basically signalled that he wasn't cut out for a job the size of Manchester United.
I dont believe that Ferguson wouldn't have insisted on getting his own staff if he took over.
Ferguson never took over a club in the circumstances that Moyes did, very few managers ever have in fact. But when you look at Ferguson's career at United he was never afraid of a different opinion or delegating to others, so I'm not so sure he would have.
Maybe Ferguson expected too much of Moyes when he advised him to keep Phelan and Rene in place. Moyes ignored him and just about everyone else that tried to advise him apparently.
There were scouting reports but just not thorough and detailed from what's been reported. Fergie had his brother and backroom team scouting for him. And some players were signed after being observed over a solitary match.
True, but it seemed to work while said 71 year old was around.
Not according to what was reported at the time. I’ll try to find a source.
The cases of Buttner, Bebe, Obertan, Gibson...etc made me doubt the quality of our "scouting network" by the time of Fergie's departure. I think Chicharito was the last great find of Fergie's scouts.
Not just with the benefit of hindsight; lots of people queried it at the time. I don’t think it was so much the principle of it, but the qualifications and experience of those he was bringing in.
Yeah. I understand that the circumstances he arrived in were unusual ones (replacing a retiring genius, not a sacked failed regime) but the notion of his bringing in his own people was hardly that outlandish.
The thing about it that set alarm bells ringing with me wasn’t that it put Moyes in a bad light; it was that SAF had handed over to Moyes assuming that the staff would be kept. It made me wonder what other assumptions had been made, and gave the impression that the entire process of transition had been sloppily thought through with little attention to detail. Moyes being a bad choice was only a part of the problem.
That’s absolutely not a criticism of SAF; it wasn’t his job to manage the process since he wouldn’t be around to do it.
I don't agree or disagree.
I never thought Moyes was "clueless" but right from the moment of his appointment I did say some managers just weren't a good fit for bigger, and particularly higher-spending, clubs. He had no real idea who to buy - bit like the suddenly well-off boy not just in a sweet shop but in Harrods food hall.
Moyes has proved what he is good at at West Ham and in a strange way I was quite pleased for him. Would I give him another chance at United? not in a million years
Moyes has proved what he is good at at West Ham and in a strange way I was quite pleased for him. Would I give him another chance at United? not in a million years
It was the right decision. Moyes was never going to get any respect from people who served SAF. Any decision(right or wrong) would probably be undermined by people not close to him.
Let's say we appointed Jose Mourinho or Klopp after SAF, would they have agreed to keep SAF's staff? Of course not, they'd have insisted on bringing in their own guys regardless of how successful SAF has been.
I have no doubt mate I thought it was a mistake at the time. But defending the decision back then was fair enough but someone still saying it was the right decision knowing what happened is bordering on ludicrous.
It wasn't outlandish for Moyes to bring some of his own staff from Everton but getting rid of all the current staff was a monumentally stupid move that smacked of someone who only wanted yes men around them. Phil Neville didn't need to part of the coaching staff for a start. So Chris Woods could have replaced Eric Steele and Steve Round, Phelan and Rene could have been Moyes assistants. And with Jimmy Lumsden nearing retirement he could have still been doing whatever the feck he did do in his year at United (roaming the halls and rummaging through bins probably).
And yeah I agree the much vaunted succession plan that Gill spoke about for years boiled down to the club basically asking Ferguson to pick someone. The whole thing was a farce, the 6 year contract, Fergie having to tell the fans to give him time, asking the fans to make a banner before he's even managed a game etc. All those things point to the club hiring someone they hoped could be the next Fergie as opposed to hiring someone they knew could make the job their own.
One note though there were a fair few reports after Moyes sacking that Moyes had actually told SAF he would keep his staff only to renege on that once he was in the job.
Moyes is good at what he does, he can do well at a stable club on a decent budget with limited expectations.
This actually makes no sense. Why would he need to lie to SAF? He thought he would only get the job only if he kept the staffs or something?
It wasn't right though as the whole thing went tits up.
Ferguson himself has said it was a massive blunder on Moyes part.
If Ferguson had advised them to then yeah there's a good chance they probably would have. Lots of managers keep on coaching staff from the previous regime.
Keeping on Phelan and Rene didn't mean Moyes couldn't have also brought Round and Woods with him.
Maybe he wasn't lying when he agreed to it at the time but went back on the decision later on. Moyes is infamous for being very indecisive.
Of all the things happening at united and in the world, this must be the last thing people are thinking about.
Ultimately I’d prefer watching moyes boys throw in 100 crosses in a match rather than LVGs lads getting to the halfway line then passing backwards or sideways
glad both are in the rear view mirror
glad both are in the rear view mirror
Of course Ferguson will think that. He was the better manager and he would of course be confident in his own people and in his own decisions.
And almost all manager keep few coaches from the previous regime but they all bring their assistants with them. And you are lying to yourself if you think Mourinho or Klopp would have kept Fergie's men. Those two guys have their own methods of coaching which Phlean or Rene would have no clue about and it would have been a colossal feck up.
Moyes' men were crap and it was going to fail but he was right in bringing in his own men. If SAF thought Moyes could succeed with his staff then that was even more stupid that picking Moyes in the first place.
Jimmy Lumsden! That name brings back bad memories…
The one he really should have kept was Phelan, who by all accounts wasn’t particularly involved on the tactics/coaching side, but acted more as SAF’s HR guy. He could have helped Moyes manage the egos and explain why it was that certain crocked players needed special dispensation to train only gently.
I rather think that Moyes, being a mixture of insecure and arrogant, would never have countenanced that sort of help though.
The reneging on the “promise” to SAF sounds not unlikely, but again there was no higher authority around to challenge him over it. If Gill had remained, or Woodward hadn’t been an idiot, they’d have told him he couldn’t replace the lot and should do as you suggested.
I wouldn’t. At least the passing was accurate, albeit unambitious. The football in the second half of Jose’s second season was worse that both though.
Moyes would have keept Norwich last season, but he would never win the title with United
Lvg put me to sleep. Literally. Moyes nor Jose did
I wish Jose had been able to put me to sleep before I’d set off to games. The 0-0 v Southampton at the end of 2018 plumbed new depths of dullness.
I don’t remember that one specifically but I’ll take your word for it. Under Lvg I literally stopped watching football. Jose’s first season got me new life. Probably helped that i spent a few of those 2017 months in hospital on drugs and not much to do
Yeah, LvG caused me to dislike the game. His teams were literally a cure for insomnia. Well, he put me to sleep.
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Same here Spoons, absolutely terrible. I went from looking forward to game time to actively looking for other things to do.
I enjoyed Jose’s first season and a half actually. He seemed to give up the moment Ed stupidly gave him that new contract.
Yes, which is exactly what Moyes could and should have done.
Klopp I don't know but I'm pretty sure Mourinho would have been open to keeping someone on. That was after all how he got a big opportunity at Barcelona under LVG.
So they were crap and it was doomed to fail but it was the right decision. Erm, ok.
Yeah that's just one example but it's an area where Moyes could have did with some help. From the stories that came out the squad went from technical sessions and tailored training to everyone running the horseshoe.
Yeah I have to agree, ignoring advice was pretty much the running theme of Moyes time at United.
I'm sure the players were by no means blameless but some certainly had every right to feel aggrieved. It didn't exactly help prolong Rio and RVP's careers.
Don't forget that after he left he said he wouldn't have done anything any differently. So presumably he thought taking us from champions to seventh was all he was capable of.
That statement from him was idiotic.
The second sentence make no sense, if he went back in time and had his time at United over again he would only do things differently if he knew he'd only have 10 months? But if he's going back in time then he'd know all the decisions he made first time round resulted in him only getting 10 months.
He definitely never thought that one through.
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Probably still believes itThat statement from him was idiotic.
The second sentence make no sense, if he went in time and had his time at United over again he would only do things differently if he knew he'd only have 10 months? But if he's going back in time then he'd know all the decisions he made first time round resulted in him only getting 10 months.
He definitely never thought that one through.
We’d have died from desperation a few years back.