One here too
ICC Cricket World Cup 2023
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I’d say plenty do. It’s huge here
Few old cricket fans saw it coming tbh. The fact that the template India followed was built around two batsmen carrying the bat was their downfall in the end even though Rohit successfully did what he has been doing.
They became rigid with their approach and had no other plan and tried the same old strategy of taking the game deep. Kohli and Rahul played like they were 6 or 7 down.
India have a bit of a problem with the type of players they're producing. Too many bowlers who can't bat at all, and too many batsman who can't bowl at all.
They've got a double of good all-rounders in Hardik and Jadeja. But the rest of the team are hopeless.
This Aussie team and the england team from the last WC bat deep. Thats why they're not reliant on someone carrying the bat. Australia also had the option of getting overs from not only Maxwell but Marsh as well. And they left Stoinis on the bench.
When they last won the WC, Dhoni and Raina were the 6th and 7th options for India. And Yuvraj got them 10, with Raina also chipping in with a few.
They've got a double of good all-rounders in Hardik and Jadeja. But the rest of the team are hopeless.
This Aussie team and the england team from the last WC bat deep. Thats why they're not reliant on someone carrying the bat. Australia also had the option of getting overs from not only Maxwell but Marsh as well. And they left Stoinis on the bench.
When they last won the WC, Dhoni and Raina were the 6th and 7th options for India. And Yuvraj got them 10, with Raina also chipping in with a few.
You forgot Green who would be starting for almost all other teams.
I feel the indian management have already started to realise that and you are seeing younger talents like Tilak Varma and Jaiswal being groomed, both of them can bowl.
I don't think today we lost because of that. Of course pandya instead of sky automatically upgrades the team but today was solely with the approach. If this was a normal match in a bilateral series, India would have pushed for 300 and would have scored that. Like many have attributed already, the knock out nerves is something India are failing to conquer. There is some kind of brain freeze happening.
This is India's 5th final loss in ICC tournaments in the last 10 years. And all of them have been one sided. No matter the format we seem to just go into brain freeze mode. Even the other KO matches in recent years, be it against England last year or NZ in 2019, we just go into some shell and when things start going south, you could see the whole team's shoulder start to drop. India must fix it as it is a shame with such resources and such fantastic talent we don't have one ICC trophy to show.
Congratulations to Australia. On a separate note many notably big players have probably seen thier last 50 over wc.
Warner, Smith, Maxwell, Root, Stokes, Kohli, Sharma, Jadeja, Williamson, Shakib Al Hasan and I'm sure a few other top players.
Warner, Smith, Maxwell, Root, Stokes, Kohli, Sharma, Jadeja, Williamson, Shakib Al Hasan and I'm sure a few other top players.
Pretty much. Over reliant on the top order. I honestly would've dropped Siraj and Kuldeep for Thakur and Ashwin.
Thakur is pretty much useless. Don't think he would have made any difference. In fact today had nothing to do with selection. Our approach was bad. Australia brought their A game while India brought their C game.
Congratulations to the Aussies - what a six months for Cummins.
WTC? Check
Ashes? Check
ODI WC? Check
Being an all round nice guy and hero? Check
WTC? Check
Ashes? Check
ODI WC? Check
Being an all round nice guy and hero? Check
What bloke doesn't like Cummins
Well I have the passport so ......
Not a huge cricket fan so I went to bed thinking we will lose so I might as well not lose sleep as well but got a pleasant shock when I woke up half an hour or so ago.
Given the population of India and the religious reverence in which cricket is held there, I wonder how many people watched the final?
It must have been one of the most watched television broadcasts ever.
It must have been one of the most watched television broadcasts ever.
Thing is, our approach when quick wickets go down is extremely limited. Having some batting down the order would definitely help but we didn't have the security. Plus, Siraj and Kuldeep were underwhelming this tournament.
Didn't think anyone would beat India in those conditions.
Pitches were set up perfectly, everything was set up for the perfect win yet they couldn't even bring it home.
Amazing performing from the Aussies, by far the best team from the 5th game onwards,
A poor world cup overall but a great final with the two best teams competing.
Pitches were set up perfectly, everything was set up for the perfect win yet they couldn't even bring it home.
Amazing performing from the Aussies, by far the best team from the 5th game onwards,
A poor world cup overall but a great final with the two best teams competing.
India are unlucky that all the small issues they had somehow got exposed today. Maybe Australia just did a great job of exposing these issues
- Long tail
-5 bowlers with Siraj slightly off
- Iyer dodgy against pace
- Middle order tendency to struggle on slow wickets
-KL being a part time keeper
- Long tail
-5 bowlers with Siraj slightly off
- Iyer dodgy against pace
- Middle order tendency to struggle on slow wickets
-KL being a part time keeper
Fantastic all round cricketer as well. Delivers with the bat at no. 9 whenever his team needs it.
Hindsight is easy but I feel that Rohit’s new style is always a huge risk with a short batting lineup. He batted very well this tournament but the whole team batting well & Kohli having an exceptional tournament kind of didn’t let this being an issue. If you have 6 batsmen and Gill is already out then you are asking for trouble playing so many shots.
You could tell nerves got to the players, and it started in the SFs. The sheer amount of extras you gave away in these knockout games, wides going for fours, byes from Rahul etc. they're all signs of a nervy team, where there was no sign of that in the previous 9 games. It's also like a big release when you're trying to build up pressure and turn the screw on the opposition. These byes / wides were coming after a few dot balls and just allowed the batters to rotate the strike.
Edit: For reference, you gave away 18 extras in the final and 29(!) in the SF.
India had this tournament set up for them,
They really couldn't have asked for better circumstances.
Pitches, tosses. and circumstances had felled in Indias favor, yet they still fell short.
Those who write for the gutter press here. He is too woke as he asked not to have to personally do Alinta adverts, and some of the team took the knee with the West Indies team before the Perth test. This has been affecting the team's performance apparently. This post from Feb hasn't aged well
And in the end it is a single game which in this case turned on 2 batsmen having a very good day at the office. It happens.
Anyway - here's my team of the tourny:
1. Rohit
2. de Kock
3. Kohli
4. Mitchell
5. Iyer
6. Maxwell
7. Starc
8. Cummins
9. Zampa
10. Bumrah
11. Shami
So 5 Indians, 4 Aussies, a Saffer and a Kiwi.
Really hard to leave Head out considering his last two games, same with Ravindra, Siraj, Hazlewood, Coetzee, and a few others.
1. Rohit
2. de Kock
3. Kohli
4. Mitchell
5. Iyer
6. Maxwell
7. Starc
8. Cummins
9. Zampa
10. Bumrah
11. Shami
So 5 Indians, 4 Aussies, a Saffer and a Kiwi.
Really hard to leave Head out considering his last two games, same with Ravindra, Siraj, Hazlewood, Coetzee, and a few others.
I don't get the toss argument though. Did toss really favor india as they apparently only won 4 tosses thos whole tourney. England won 7 tosses.
I do agree this was a missed opportunity. Home advantage, played some exceptional cricket for the whole tournament only to fail today. We went from 8- 9-10 consistently to a 4 today. Rarely happens in any major event.
I agree having capable lower order batters help. I feel pandya's injury meant we were not able to play Ashwin. Do I think he would have made a difference? I don't. But in hindsight he would have been better than SKY.
Shardul, I just don't rate that guy. He is just useless. Unreliable batter and mediocre bowler.
I've had a day to think about it, now, and some things seem clearer. Long, final, essay incoming - more for my thoughts than the caf's consumption.
One, captaincy.
In high-pressure knockouts, good captains win you games more often than individually good players. The 03/07 Aussie dominance was not just because they had good players, but a great captain in Ponting. India won the WC in '11 due to Dhoni's captaincy more than his batting - which also explains why CSK win the IPL so often despite not having the best players. In this final, Pat Cummins was a much better, calmer, and aggressive captain who prepared thoroughly for the conditions, and believed in every player in his team to do their job. Man for man, India had better players - Rohit, Kohli, Shami and Bumrah are miles above most counterparts in most teams across multiple eras. But Rohit failed as a captain in that final, while Cummins succeeded.
- With their arguable influence over pitch selection, India was practically starting with an (unfair) advantage most games. But the pitch curators for this final outsmarted themselves and the Indian captain. If Rohit indeed wanted to bat first on this pitch (he's been historically candid in that call), it means that Cummins and the Australians read it better than the Indians. The better captain made the better call - to bowl first. And it paid off beautifully, with the demons in the pitch killing off any chance of a late Indian counterattack, and the dew making it a better surface to chase on.
- At no point was Rahul explicitly told to up his scoring, which was our biggest failure in the first innings. The singles and twos (and the occasional bad ball to put away) were up for grabs when Cummins was getting rid of all his part-timers after Iyer's wicket. Rahul went into a shell and refused to rotate strike the way Kohli was at the other end. Throughout this tournament. Indian batters have had fixed roles - since Kohli was anchoring and rotating strike better, Rahul needed to go for it. Rahul didn't - crumbling under pressure and deciding to block most balls and prioritize survival at the cost of everything, and Rohit did NOT send a message across to change this and enforce his role.
- When SKY came out to bat, his instructions should have been explicit as well - get some runs on board. I will be haunted by the image of SKY taking a single off the first ball of his over to get Kuldeep on strike when we had 3 overs and 2 wickets remaining. Unless SKY explicitly shirked responsibility there, not instructing otherwise was on Rohit. Take initiative, tell SKY what is expected of him. If you chose not to do so, then it's on you for not getting enough runs on board. Both Rahul and SKY must be shown how the third boundary after the tenth over was hit by Shami, and how easy he made it look. Why were our batters not showing intent?
- In the bowling, and this is the most serious of all his shortcomings, I feel - Rohit panicked and messed up the bowling order leaving two of his bowlers clueless. Shami had never opened bowling with Bumrah the whole tournament, and the sole reason Siraj is in the team is because he is a opening swing bowler. If you pick him, you trust him. Using up five of Shami's overs in the first 10 at such expense where he struggled to find line and length with a swinging ball, and got only one wicket - not only nullified Siraj's only strength, but also left India without a wicket taker in the middle overs. It was an all or nothing gamble, and it didn't pay. Both Shami and Siraj suffered for that decision.
- After the first 10, Rohit did not turn the screws. There was no aggression in field setting to strangle the twos and dare the Aussies to go over the field against our spinners, even before dew had completely set in. Why we were content with them rotating strike, I'll never know.
- I know the game was gone after a point, but watching the captain's body language drop even earlier was cruel to watch. Under Kohli, even in lost causes, we fought till the last ball, the last run. Rohit just gave up, and his team followed suit.
Contrast that with Cummins trusting his field placements, and planning traps for every batsman. With his readiness to trust his part-timers to come in and get dots in crucial moments, with the leadership that inspired each and every Aussie to fight tooth and nail for each single and to save each boundary. They believed as a team, and they had clear roles to play in their belief. Credit to Cummins and the Aussies for bringing the right mindset and turning the Indian crowd against the team and capitalizing on the Indian choke.
Two, legacy.
The legacy of this Australian team is that with much lesser players than their '03 counterparts, they played for each other and their country, left their blood, sweat and tears on the pitch, beat arguably better individual opponents time and again in extremely adversarial conditions and achieved the pinnacle of success through sheer mentality and resilience. Each player found a moment in the WC to will themselves into legend. Who else scores 200 in a WC chase with a limping leg when you're batting with the tail? Who else has the guts to bowl first on an Indian pitch in a WC final? How many 37 year olds run their lungs out to save boundary after boundary in a WC final? How many players have winning centuries in WTC and CWC finals (and in this one, after taking the most important catch of the tournament)? This team should be remembered for their resilience, for their sheer belief and application in the face of all odds.
There were questions if this Indian team was as good as the 2003 Australian team. The answer is not only a clear no, I think it must be acknowledged that this Indian team was not even as good as this Aussie team - that has won the Ashes, the WTC, and now the ODI final. We had the better players - Australia has never produced a player with Kohli's combination of sheer individual caliber, talent and resilience, for instance, and Rohit and Bumrah are right up there with Australian greats - but our team was inferior. The legacy of this Indian team is much like that of the 2003 one - individually great players, poor team that can't mentally cope with big occasions, starting with the captain. And it has to be stated how the pressure that Indians face is different than what Aussies face. It's like England at football. A billion people, myself included, have pinned their hopes on you in almost fervent religious-esque dedication. Stoinis can walk about in NY and not even get recognized, Rohit will be known as the captain who lost this WC everywhere he goes till the day he dies. Indian cricketers cannot disengage from this pressure, from this expectation, and it takes special mental resilience to go out there, shed this extra pressure and play as freely as an Australian counterpart does. I don't think we can get anywhere without acknowledging our failings in the first place, eating humble pie, and aiming to fix our shortcomings in the generations to come.
There is no redemption for many of the folks who stepped out onto the pitch yesterday - this was it, and they bungled it. I'd like to be kind to the likes of Bumrah, Shami, Jadeja, Rohit, and Kohli for all the joy they brought to the country across the last decade and longer - we had some brilliant wins in some challenging conditions across all formats of the game, and should have won more finals for the talent they had. And of course they have their individual honours - Kohli as the greatest ODI batsman India has ever produced, Bumrah as the bowler, and Shami as our best WC bowler. But they'll have to live with this failure for the rest of their lives. Sometimes it just doesn't go your way, and you live with it.
---
Roll on the meaningless bilaterals, Asia Cups, IPLs. None of those matter to me personally (and to millions of other Indians, I presume) after losing this single game, unfortunately. I was personally deeply invested in this tournament to ease the ghosts of 2003, and ended up doubling them. I have enough trauma from intensely supporting United, a step back there did wonders for me. It's a shame I'd be giving up on watching Kohli bat or Bumrah bowl, but it's time to give up on cricket for a good few years to preserve mental health, till we finally have a better team and a better captain a decade or so later. Perhaps it will be good for the game to have attention taken away from India and the swathes of fans (quite a few are toxic, as Neesham's inbox shows), or perhaps it'll be open season for English trolls (because Aussies or Pak fans don't gloat as much) to capitalize on India's failure. I'll never know.
One, captaincy.
In high-pressure knockouts, good captains win you games more often than individually good players. The 03/07 Aussie dominance was not just because they had good players, but a great captain in Ponting. India won the WC in '11 due to Dhoni's captaincy more than his batting - which also explains why CSK win the IPL so often despite not having the best players. In this final, Pat Cummins was a much better, calmer, and aggressive captain who prepared thoroughly for the conditions, and believed in every player in his team to do their job. Man for man, India had better players - Rohit, Kohli, Shami and Bumrah are miles above most counterparts in most teams across multiple eras. But Rohit failed as a captain in that final, while Cummins succeeded.
- With their arguable influence over pitch selection, India was practically starting with an (unfair) advantage most games. But the pitch curators for this final outsmarted themselves and the Indian captain. If Rohit indeed wanted to bat first on this pitch (he's been historically candid in that call), it means that Cummins and the Australians read it better than the Indians. The better captain made the better call - to bowl first. And it paid off beautifully, with the demons in the pitch killing off any chance of a late Indian counterattack, and the dew making it a better surface to chase on.
- At no point was Rahul explicitly told to up his scoring, which was our biggest failure in the first innings. The singles and twos (and the occasional bad ball to put away) were up for grabs when Cummins was getting rid of all his part-timers after Iyer's wicket. Rahul went into a shell and refused to rotate strike the way Kohli was at the other end. Throughout this tournament. Indian batters have had fixed roles - since Kohli was anchoring and rotating strike better, Rahul needed to go for it. Rahul didn't - crumbling under pressure and deciding to block most balls and prioritize survival at the cost of everything, and Rohit did NOT send a message across to change this and enforce his role.
- When SKY came out to bat, his instructions should have been explicit as well - get some runs on board. I will be haunted by the image of SKY taking a single off the first ball of his over to get Kuldeep on strike when we had 3 overs and 2 wickets remaining. Unless SKY explicitly shirked responsibility there, not instructing otherwise was on Rohit. Take initiative, tell SKY what is expected of him. If you chose not to do so, then it's on you for not getting enough runs on board. Both Rahul and SKY must be shown how the third boundary after the tenth over was hit by Shami, and how easy he made it look. Why were our batters not showing intent?
- In the bowling, and this is the most serious of all his shortcomings, I feel - Rohit panicked and messed up the bowling order leaving two of his bowlers clueless. Shami had never opened bowling with Bumrah the whole tournament, and the sole reason Siraj is in the team is because he is a opening swing bowler. If you pick him, you trust him. Using up five of Shami's overs in the first 10 at such expense where he struggled to find line and length with a swinging ball, and got only one wicket - not only nullified Siraj's only strength, but also left India without a wicket taker in the middle overs. It was an all or nothing gamble, and it didn't pay. Both Shami and Siraj suffered for that decision.
- After the first 10, Rohit did not turn the screws. There was no aggression in field setting to strangle the twos and dare the Aussies to go over the field against our spinners, even before dew had completely set in. Why we were content with them rotating strike, I'll never know.
- I know the game was gone after a point, but watching the captain's body language drop even earlier was cruel to watch. Under Kohli, even in lost causes, we fought till the last ball, the last run. Rohit just gave up, and his team followed suit.
Contrast that with Cummins trusting his field placements, and planning traps for every batsman. With his readiness to trust his part-timers to come in and get dots in crucial moments, with the leadership that inspired each and every Aussie to fight tooth and nail for each single and to save each boundary. They believed as a team, and they had clear roles to play in their belief. Credit to Cummins and the Aussies for bringing the right mindset and turning the Indian crowd against the team and capitalizing on the Indian choke.
Two, legacy.
The legacy of this Australian team is that with much lesser players than their '03 counterparts, they played for each other and their country, left their blood, sweat and tears on the pitch, beat arguably better individual opponents time and again in extremely adversarial conditions and achieved the pinnacle of success through sheer mentality and resilience. Each player found a moment in the WC to will themselves into legend. Who else scores 200 in a WC chase with a limping leg when you're batting with the tail? Who else has the guts to bowl first on an Indian pitch in a WC final? How many 37 year olds run their lungs out to save boundary after boundary in a WC final? How many players have winning centuries in WTC and CWC finals (and in this one, after taking the most important catch of the tournament)? This team should be remembered for their resilience, for their sheer belief and application in the face of all odds.
There were questions if this Indian team was as good as the 2003 Australian team. The answer is not only a clear no, I think it must be acknowledged that this Indian team was not even as good as this Aussie team - that has won the Ashes, the WTC, and now the ODI final. We had the better players - Australia has never produced a player with Kohli's combination of sheer individual caliber, talent and resilience, for instance, and Rohit and Bumrah are right up there with Australian greats - but our team was inferior. The legacy of this Indian team is much like that of the 2003 one - individually great players, poor team that can't mentally cope with big occasions, starting with the captain. And it has to be stated how the pressure that Indians face is different than what Aussies face. It's like England at football. A billion people, myself included, have pinned their hopes on you in almost fervent religious-esque dedication. Stoinis can walk about in NY and not even get recognized, Rohit will be known as the captain who lost this WC everywhere he goes till the day he dies. Indian cricketers cannot disengage from this pressure, from this expectation, and it takes special mental resilience to go out there, shed this extra pressure and play as freely as an Australian counterpart does. I don't think we can get anywhere without acknowledging our failings in the first place, eating humble pie, and aiming to fix our shortcomings in the generations to come.
There is no redemption for many of the folks who stepped out onto the pitch yesterday - this was it, and they bungled it. I'd like to be kind to the likes of Bumrah, Shami, Jadeja, Rohit, and Kohli for all the joy they brought to the country across the last decade and longer - we had some brilliant wins in some challenging conditions across all formats of the game, and should have won more finals for the talent they had. And of course they have their individual honours - Kohli as the greatest ODI batsman India has ever produced, Bumrah as the bowler, and Shami as our best WC bowler. But they'll have to live with this failure for the rest of their lives. Sometimes it just doesn't go your way, and you live with it.
---
Roll on the meaningless bilaterals, Asia Cups, IPLs. None of those matter to me personally (and to millions of other Indians, I presume) after losing this single game, unfortunately. I was personally deeply invested in this tournament to ease the ghosts of 2003, and ended up doubling them. I have enough trauma from intensely supporting United, a step back there did wonders for me. It's a shame I'd be giving up on watching Kohli bat or Bumrah bowl, but it's time to give up on cricket for a good few years to preserve mental health, till we finally have a better team and a better captain a decade or so later. Perhaps it will be good for the game to have attention taken away from India and the swathes of fans (quite a few are toxic, as Neesham's inbox shows), or perhaps it'll be open season for English trolls (because Aussies or Pak fans don't gloat as much) to capitalize on India's failure. I'll never know.
Those who write for the gutter press here. He is too woke as he asked not to have to personally do Alinta adverts, and some of the team took the knee with the West Indies team before the Perth test. This has been affecting the team's performance apparently. This post from Feb hasn't aged well
Gotta love Cumdog making the murdoch press seethe at any given moment.
Getting rid of Langer has done wonders for this side
It felt like a different Indian team last night, as soon as Australia got to 90/3 their heads seemed to drop and I’m sure the deathly silence in the crowd didn’t help.
Just woke up and watched the highlights again - so satisfying
@Gandalf Greyhame walking away for a while is the right decision bud. A sport should not affect you so badly.
Honestly. The second I saw Aus in the finals, I knew we would lose. It’s not that we can’t beat them. It’s just I knew that they would win against us mentally.
Didn’t get to see the match as I was flying, tried to not know the score so that I could experience it “live” at 3 am. But it got spoilt for me right at the end.
Just wish the match was at Wankhade. That crowd might have helped us.
Didn’t get to see the match as I was flying, tried to not know the score so that I could experience it “live” at 3 am. But it got spoilt for me right at the end.
Just wish the match was at Wankhade. That crowd might have helped us.
like everyone watching marnus.
He plays for New Zealand. How is he even being trolled? But look at the comments of Australian players and their families and it's the same. Leading to Glenn Maxwell's wife to speak out about the abuse because it is bordering on being properly threatening. Online fans don't represent the majority of people thankfully but it happens too often from Indian fans and a real shame that a bunch of people writing like 12 year olds blow up comments sections and ruin it for everyone else because they have insane amounts of jingoism and can't accept it's just a game at the end of the day.
A good tournament but really showed the same problem for the Indian team. No idea how to perform under knockout pressure. This was a great chance to lift the trophy, I don't have any faith in the upcoming IPL generation.
Had more time to think about it, myself. Australia absolutely destroyed us. We had around 16 decent overs across the entire match - completely one sided.
Travis Head has had massive abuse on his social media following the win yesterday - fans saying they want to rape and kill his wife and daughter (she's 1 year old). iirc, Kohli copped the same abuse a year or two ago.
Some Indian fans (not all obviously) are horribly toxic and their accounts should be disabled.
That's horrendous. Gosh.
The last 4 WC finals have now been won by the chasing team.
I think contrary to popular belief it probably is better to chase in these big high pressure games. You have a bad over bowling because of nerves, and you'll just go for runs. You have a bad over batting first, and you could be 2-3 wickets down quite quickly. It gives you more of a chance to settle into a game, and the batsman are under pressure to put up a total at the same time.
(Yes I'm ignoring the super over).
I think contrary to popular belief it probably is better to chase in these big high pressure games. You have a bad over bowling because of nerves, and you'll just go for runs. You have a bad over batting first, and you could be 2-3 wickets down quite quickly. It gives you more of a chance to settle into a game, and the batsman are under pressure to put up a total at the same time.
(Yes I'm ignoring the super over).
I think it is just a coincidence because the better team has been batting second in most of these finals.