It's hard to tell how good smalling is because he never play CB for us on a constant basis. He probably came too early and would have been better off playing for a smaller club for a couple of years and been brought to us for this season. It's about from this age 24-25 the CB should start to establish their spot in a club. Smalling seem to be a bit unaggressive. Another year and he might start taking more responsability on the pitch and usually that automatically lead to a player starting to perform on another level.
How good is Chris Smalling?
- Thread starter Plechazunga
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Giving him the captaincy for the Inter game would be a good psychological move from van Gaal. For me he's regressed as a player, he has talent but he needs to show more of it.
There's a reason why people are willing to be more patient with him and why Hummels is currently better at positioning himself than Smalling. The bolded parts all point to one thing that has prevented Smalling from realising his potential by now: lack of regular match time at central defence. When Hummels was 22, he was a regular at central defence. Smalling, however, was in and out of the team due to injuries, and he played at right back as often as he did through the middle.
Plus, the regularity of his bad positioning that you talk about was the case on his first 2 years at the club. However, since then, he's been constantly improving in this facet of his game, and now, such positioning issues are much less frequent than they were in the past. If Smalling gets regular match time as a central defender, he would refine himself even more and take out those moments of bad positioning.
It's actually the other way around. Hummels is great asset in a team with a high line of defense, as was shown by his great performances for Germany, a team with probably the highest defense line at WC.
And positioning is not Hummels strongest suit. He is very strong in challenges/tackles, very good in the air, his on-the-ball skills are very good, that allows him to venture forward. And so on, he pace while not being top is certainly above average.
So Hummels is not better than Smalling in positioning because he is a position-specialist, no almost any top defender is, just anybody really, apart from D Luiz. And in general positioning is one skill you just can't be a top CB without. You can be great without aerial ability, strength, without pace, but good positioning almost always is mandatory.
Sorry i stopped reading there. Germany were awful in defence until they put Lahm back into RB and boateng into CB to cover Hummels.
Everybody and there dog know Hummels is slow, but then so was Vidic. People make up for pace in different areas.
That's not true, Germany only let in goals in one match, against Ghana. And a very late one against Brazil. So "awful in defence" is being ridiculous. And Boateng only needed to cover for Hummels, not because of his lack of pace, which was fine, but rather cover him when he gets forward to his "playmaking" stuff.
And still Hummels was a part of the defence that played much higher, than Smalling ever played.
Did u watch the Algeria match? If it was not for Neuer and his sweeping antics they would have been hammered. So many times their pacey forwards got in behind Hummels and Mertesacker.
Did you watch the game? You know, the game in which Hummels was actually missing because he caught the flu.Perhaps I got that 1 wrong. Don't misunderstand me, I rate Hummels a lot! I think he's a great defender, but do you agree he is slow? a high defensive line DOES NOT suit him.
Just because Dortmund play that way, they make up for it with high forward pressure. If they played that way without the press he would get found out with balls over the top.
He isn't one of the quickest centerbacks around, no one is denying that. The way most people on the Caf portray him as slow is plain stupid though. I can't remember him being slow ever being a problem in Dortmund's high line, so yeah obviously his overall skill set is suited perfectly to a high line. The key here is that he's terrific in organising the defense, which is way more important than the ability to make up for mistakes through pace. Of course it's useful to have him partnered with someone fast like Boateng, but it's not necessary. Our World Cup game against Algeria is actually a perfect example why his organisational skills are so incredible important and the supposedly lack of pace is such a minor problem in comparison. If the highline fails, the attackers always have the advantage because even the fast centerbacks will struggle against top attackers running constantly in behind the defense. Unless you criticise him for struggling one on one against Messi after being dragged out wide with the rightback being awol several times in the final, his pace was never a problem at the World Cup at all. His one massive mistake in the final was misjudging the header which lead to Palacio's big chance, but that was when he clearly struggled with his fitness after being ill for a few days prior to the semifinal and final and had nothing to do with pace in the first place.
I honestly have no idea how anyone could use his excellent performances at the World Cup against him being used in a high line. He marshalled the defense in the World Cup winning team. I'd happily have him at Bayern.
Oh and every high defensive line needs to have some sort of pressing in midfield, if not quality teams will always destroy you. Why would you push your back line high up the pitch if not to tighten up the space in midfield and deny the opponent the space to play forward?
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Exactly. Because Mert and Boateng were playing. Had Hummels been on, they would have been much more solid.
You just don;t get two things. First of all, it's positioning, not pace that is paramount in high line defense, that is why Hummels so good in Dortmund and Germany, teams that both employ high line. Secondly, Hummels is not as quick as Boateng, or Jones, or Smalling, but he is certainly more pacy that most of big defenders. Van Buyten and Demichelis are slow, even when they were young. Hummels is certainly no slower than Evans, maybe even faster, he is certainly faster than Vidic before injury.
And you can easily verify it with WC's speed stats.
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That is exactly what I said in the beginning. I said Hummels makes up for his lack of pace with positioning?.
All I argued was Smalling can make up for his "lack" of positioning with his great pace. The fact is though Smalling is well on the way to being a top CB. This pre season he has already showed he is the best of the 3 we have.
No, you said Hummels lacks pace, which is simply not correct as his pace is above average. You also said he can't play in high line of defense, that is also a wrong statement, as he does it regularly and with a great success.
As for Smalling, you can't make up for bad positioning with your pace, just watch any top match. Like Brazil-Germany. Marcelo does have a lot of pace, Luiz as well. And they both were caught out again and again, and again. There are maybe a 15% of situations were you can rectify your positional mistake with pace and tackles. Like you left a man get in behind you, but you caught up with him and got the ball. But these situation are fairly rare. The main application of positioning skills is controlling movement of opponents in the box. And these mistake are impossible to correct with pace.
As for "Smalling is well on the way to being a top CB" that's clearly an overstatement. He has some talent and potential, but whether he will become a very good defender, never mind the top one, remains to be seen.
Yes he did play a lot out of position. But given Vidic's injuries and Evans constant absence coupled with Rio's age, who's fault is that exactly? Mostly his. He could not convince Fergie and Moyes that he can be regular CB.
I do believe he has ability and that he should not play at RB. He should get a chance at CB post. When it's was not as clear we would play 3-5-2, i even argued that he don't need a top CB recruit this window, maybe an experienced cover and we let Smalling, Evans, Jones to fight it out for two positions. But i also believe that he is running low on excuses. MU is not a halfway house or something like that, we can't be patient and hope the player will improve, he'll get better etc. It is a sensible strategy with someone who is 20, 21, well 22 at the latest. But Smalling is going to be 25 this season, he is clearly not young anymore.
And what i am saying is that i think this year he will have a proper chance to prove his worth at CB position. And he would not do it, if he still be making these mistakes he either should be content to be a squad player or leave.
You would rather we played Ferdinand at right-back ?
He was played there because he was the one most capable of filling in. Not because of his lack of quality showings at centre back.
hummels isn't really slow though. maybe you mean quickness
Smalling lacks composure and his passing and long passing skills are non-existent. This wouldn't be a problem if he was a tough as nails, positionally sound CB like Vidic but problem is he lacks those attributes as well. Also Vidic knew his limitations and played within his comfort zone.
Think back to how often he used to pass balls calmly out of touch in our half and moved back into position instead of trying to unsuccessfully pass it out or lobbing it and giving it back to the opposition as Smalling does.
Think back to how often he used to pass balls calmly out of touch in our half and moved back into position instead of trying to unsuccessfully pass it out or lobbing it and giving it back to the opposition as Smalling does.
I would buy a RB cover, we had a lot of chances to do that. And the main thing is that manager would not move him on the side if he thought he is good enough to start in CB position. CB clearly takes priority.
But he didn't buy RB cover, so do you play Smalling or Ferdinand there ?
Without there being RB cover the question between those two becomes who is the better RB ? not who is the lesser CB ?
79 according to my fifa save.
You do realize that it is just an idiotic question? Why is it a straight choice between only these two people? Aren't there any other players? Even like Jones? Valencia?
Okay. If it would have been end of the world and somehow there was one last football match played and only these two players were available. Only in that situation i would have chosen Smalling to be a RB. In any other situation, which includes any situation that is even close to being real, i would have chosen other player there.
I am sure that if Smalling would have proven a great CB, Fergie would not have used him on the wing, but rather used other players there, even from reserves. The main reason why Smalling was playing RB so much is because he needed games and managers did not trust him to do a job at CB, not as regularly as he needed game time at least. So they put him at RB, to deputize there.
Laughable.
Fergie stated multiple times that Smalling was used there for tactical reasons (to give us more height) and I'm sure this was this was the case more times than he was questioned on it as well. He probably trusted Smalling more to do a job there than Valencia or a reserve.
I just don't understand how you are jumping from Smalling being the best player available to provide cover at right back to him being thought of as not being a good enough centre back by SAF ? It is a classic 2+2=5.
Actually I'm done.
Because not only he was not the best player to provide cover there, it was Jones, but also usually the only players who provide these sort of cover is exactly the ones, that can't really fit as a main players in primary position, O'Shea or P Neville being examples. If Smalling was good enough in CB role Fergie would have found other options for RB.
But Smalling wasn't playing in CB for those games because Rio and Vidic were. So if Fergie thought he was the best of the rest at RB, he was free to play him there. Which is what happened, quite often.
Vidic played only in 25 PL games in two seasons, 11-12, 12-13. That's out of 76 possible games. Smalling already for one season 10-11, sort of adapting one. So he had more than enough opportunity to help himself to a CB spot.
As for Rio i think from 2012 or so there was many question to him regarding his game. So as i've said some time ago in this thread, somewhere near 2008 would have been a tough time for a CB to break in our team. But in 2012 it was much easier as Rio-Vidic was not a pairing it once was.
How many of those remaining 51 games did Smalling have an injury in ?
Evans is also senior to Smalling. Recalculate.
Not really. Evans only a year older. And he is also injury prone, so again a lot of opportunities for Smalling.
That is his problem. For example Rafael is a good player, but if his injuries will continue in such a fashion i think he would need to go, a top club can't rely on players who are constantly injured. We are talking about two years time frame here.
It's not just Smalling who has to prove himself to van Gaal, it's everyone in the team. If Smalling proves himself, then great, he stays, and we have a solid central defender for many years to come. If not, then we buy someone else to play ahead of him if we want to challenge for trophies.
Given how often Rafael and Fabio were out injured, there were a few reasons Smalling played as a right back the most often. He was the fastest out of all of the other central defenders, and he was the best crosser of the ball out of all of them. Jones may have been good with his driving runs forward, and he may have better dribbling and ball control than Smalling, but he is slower than Smalling, and his crossing is worse than Smalling's. Also, Sir Alex often played him at right back against teams with several tall, physical players rather than Jones just to deal with the height.
Why was he often paired with Ferdinand/Vidic whenever he played (and whenever Jones and Evans played)? It's because Smalling (plus Jones and Evans) weren't that great at dealing with balls into the box. With Smalling, it was his bad positioning in the box. With Jones and Evans, it was their physical weaknesses. Since the 2011/12 season, Smalling's been improving his positioning and getting more reliable each match he plays as a central defender (even during our dismal last season). If someone's constantly improving, then I'd play that player more often so that their progress isn't stalled.
Ever since Smalling broke into the scene for Fulham, he was a player who was always improving. However, his development has been stop-start due to injuries and playing out of position due to necessity/tactics. Now's his chance to prove himself that he has what it takes to make it. He has to take that chance, or he'l never make it to the first team.
Hummels isn't slow, but his main weakness certainly is pace; if he had the pace of Smalling, he would basically be a Rio at his prime. Those who say that you don't need pace are right, but it is a great asset. Rio bossed Torres, Eto'o and whoever because of his pace - he simply outpaced them. Vidic, for all his talents, were left for dead by those players, and just like Messi was able to drag Hummels out wide and outpace him, he could not do that to Smalling. Sometimes defenders need to run short or long distances against fast defenders - it doesn't matter how well you read the game - and then pace is important, just look at how Varane owned Messi for pace a couple of times last season.
Two years. And vastly more experienced. And he was at the club long before Smalling. So he has almost always been selected ahead of Smalling when both are fit (which I agree with, to be honest - he's the better defender.) Between them, Ferdinand Vidic and Evans have hoovered up the vast majority of CB appearances while Smalling has been at the club.
Stop acting like Rio was the fastest defender around. You don't need to have pace to be a great defender. Rio was a great defender because his defensive abilities were top notch - Organisation ability, reading of the game, interceptions, he had everything and his pace was just the icing on the cake. Pepe is ridiculously quick but he was made to look like a donkey everytime Real play their high-line in the Clasicos. He can compensate for his defensive shortcomings because he is aggressive and quick. Compare that to someone like Thiago Silva or Varane who are probably as quick but are Rolls-Royce of defenders because they possess the same abilities that Rio had. Even fecking Maldini at 40 could hold his own against Arsenal's fast counter-attackers in the 2008 CLs, and all this because he was an outstanding defender.
I think comparing Hummels to Smalling is ridiculous because they are different defenders, even if they play the same position. Hummels is the modern day CB, the only one we have closest to him right now is probably Evans. Smalling is something like a "pure defender", he is the CB is usually paired beside players like Hummels, someone Subotic, Vidic and Boateng are of the same mould.
I'm not sure why you argued against me when you pretty much said what I did - the only difference being that Rio was just as quick as Varane, Silva and the lot, at his prime. That's also why I said that if Hummels had Smalling's pace, he would pretty much be a young Rio - when Rio outpaced Eto'o at his prime, he was pretty much as quick as they come as CBs go. Hummels has great organization abilities, reads the game amazingly well, intercepts well, and is probably a bit better in the air than Rio was.
Pepe is very quick, but as you say he's a bit of a donkey. That's why I also agreed that you can be a world class defender whilst not being the quickest, like Hummels, Terry and Vidic, but having that extra bit of pace like Rio did certainly was the icing of the cake and separated him from them.
Agree about your take on Smalling vs Hummels.
I can't remember smalling being dissapointing whenever he is playing as a CB. Hopefully with van gaal in charge we have seen the last of smalling at right back.
think we're getting confused between quickness and pace here
Apparently he got a small injury and is training away from the rest of the group, some things never change. 
A small knock in preseason which we don't want to risk three days after his last game. It's really not too much to get worked over.
Potentially very good, still lacks composure on the ball and passing is poor at times. Not your footballing CB like Rio but equally, not your traditional defending CB like Vidic....which is pretty much all the CB's left at the club....
Our best CB. His pace is immense and his tackling sublime - saved our arse a couple of times today. Apart from one awful pass, his distribution hasn't been bad either.
Yep, made 2 dodgy passes but that aside he's been one of our better players, although that's not saying much.
Should be first choice in the middle of the defence if we stick to this 3, with two who're better on the ball at either side.
Should be first choice in the middle of the defence if we stick to this 3, with two who're better on the ball at either side.