How good are our kids really?

Volksie316 said:
I don't get the hype with Elanga that's for sure.

He works hard and can press, but that's it.

Dan James was exactly the same.

Just another example. of us overhyping our youngster's.
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I don't think we over-hype ours any more than other clubs over-hype theirs.

Years ago you only a hundred fans (or less) watched youth games each week with no social media so no-one knew about them.

Now everyone has access to MUTV (or the equivalent) and whilst only a hundred fans still attend the games...millions have access around the world. So everyone is now an expert.

In some cases certain sites decide to focus on youth (like this one) and as a consequence you talk about the 'next star'.

As always in football it is expectation v reality.
 
Mr. MUJAC said:
There are five types of youth player.

1. The 1/100 who was destined to make it right from the start. They are few and far between and I can only remember five players who I saw at youth level who I thought were dead certs (Whiteside, Giggs, Butt, Morrison, Greenwood). All the others were maybe's for one reason or another.

2. Players who show all the potential but develop into very good players a bit later. There are loads of like that including Albiston, Duxbury, Hughes, Scholes, Fletcher, Beckham, Neville, Brown, etc

3. Good solid pro's who form part of a first team squad. Again there are loads of those including P. Neville, O'Shea, Blackmore, Cleverley etc

4. Good players but not at United level (which is one of the highest in the world) and they tend to be part of the 67% who go on to careers elsewhere.

5. The final group are players that just didn't develop and plateaued early...and they tend to leave the game.

In terms of our U/18's and U/23's we definitely don't have any in Group 1 but maybe in Group 2 and 3.
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You wouldn't say Pogba was a dead cert? Or you don't count him as one of our own youth products?
 
I’d love to see James Garner make a breakthrough to the first team next season, he’s not a kid anymore. He’ll be 22 in March, he’s had a full season on loan in a tough championship. Time to see if he has it or not.
 
Mickson said:
They are probably not as good as Gavi or Camavinga (although I've seen too little of them). One of the problems is that we cant integrate them. Firstly, they never get their chance under pragmatic managers such as Mourinho and Ole, or the fraud Rangnick. Elanga is a good example, although I don¨t think he's tier 1 in potential, he was the same player under Ole as under Rangnick, but he never got the chance under Ole, which many thought was weird, including big personalties at United. Another problem is that we are not a functional team with a clear identity, making it hard to come in and impress in a 'vibes' style of football. I think it will be a lot easier under ETH. We have a lot of talented youngsters, the best group in the last 10-20 years.
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You do see the contradiction here? Elanga, the good example, got given his chance by Rangnick.
 
united_99 said:
? I mean not directly but if either Keane or Scholes were not at the club or not that good Butt would have played more often.
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Nicky Butt was an exceptional youth player and the best in the Class of 92. In my opinion he was a cert to make it at that time.

In 1992, Keane wasn't at the club and Scholes hadn't played in the youth team.

Over the next few years...Keane arrived as a ready made replacement for Bryan Robson and Butt was learning his trade alongside him. He made 35 appearances in 1994/95 and 41 appearances in 1995/96.

That's not exactly on the fringes.

During the period Scholes was playing as a striker or just behind the strikers and played less games than Butt.

Roy Keane was an exceptional player and I agree Butt would have played more if Keane wasn't at the club...but Butt still played 40+ games a season for most of his career at United.
 
maximus419 said:
A lot of it is down to drive and determination to make it. The ones who have good technical skills or physical qualities are often the ones talked up to make it, but often leads to complacency as they don't realise their potential.

I mean utd have a history of players who've made it in the first team that aren't stand outs, they've just maximised their potential and been able to make it as a useful squad player. Likes of O'Shea, Neville's, lingard, mctominay etc, none of them were regarded as top players in their position and even at youth level, few really excelled.

In truth it's just really tough to make it at utd. Players don't get opportunity to develop naturally through the club, they usually have to get a few loans and hope it works out. Unlike clubs like Ajax and others who develop their youth with the sole intention of moulding them into first team players. Utd tend to just hope a few make it but without much real planning.
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I'm sorry but this is a strange post. Our strategy is to "just hope a few make it but without much real planning".

I fundamentally disagree with this and our history proves it.
 
Skills said:
You wouldn't say Pogba was a dead cert? Or you don't count him as one of our own youth products?
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Pogba is 100% a youth graduate.

In my opinion he was in Group 2.

He had all the makings of a quality player but even at youth level he would have one outstanding game...one average game...and one anonymous game.

Nothing has changed in ten years. His inconsistency was always a question mark.
 
Unfair of the original poster to compare our kids to the likes of Camavinga, Bellingham and Pedri. Hardly any players truly break through as teenagers at any club.

Who has there been here Greenwood, Rooney before coming, Giggs? Even players like Foden and Mount were around twenty before really breaking through.

Think every clubs diehard fans who watch youth football tip some of there players every few years to be stars and certainly been a few here over the last 10-20 yers that have failed to do so after beign lauded.

Its very rare to see someone so exceptional they look a near guarantee. I can nly really think of Giggs, Rooney and sadly Greenwood from first team appearances here and to a degree Pogba from there first games for the club.

I dont watch enough youth football to give a valued opinion but from what i have seen, a few do look talented, but not to those levels, no gurantees any of them make it here. I think we get a little carried away planning ahead based on our youth, Gomes no longer here, Garner and Laird seem to have been talked about breaking through to the first team for 2/3 seasons now and forgettign Greenwood its onl y really Williams with initial success and now doubts and Elanga who looks a good professional but not sure he will tear up any trees in the first team from what he has done so far, not a criticism as I think he has done well
 
We had Mcillroy 17 Shaw at 18 Jones at 19. Not elite players, but the manager at the time thought they were good enough. If you good enough you are old enough. Then we had Bestie another 17 year old. A different level, but the sentiments the same. You dont need to wait until a players early 20s to deem whether they are good enough. Give these youngsters a chance, to see if they can bridge the youth to the first team. I suspect TH will.
 
I have low expectations for all of them. Not due to their talent but I don’t think the club has done a good job of bringing them up to the first team. Plus with a lot of failed loans, you wonder what on earth is going on
 
My kids, as much as i love em, are fecking shite at football. They're only 6 and 8 but I remember being a lot better than them when I was their age. Ah well, at least they're smart academically :lol:
 
One way to find out.. I want to see Alejandro Garnacho and Charlie McNeill given some decent game time on Sunday
 
Even if they're good enough, we're in too precarious a situation as a club that they can't afford to be given an extended "trial" in the team. We need to get top 4 as a minimum next season, and with the sheer number of teams capable of getting positions 3-4 with City/Liverpool too far ahead, they can't afford to give minutes to young players to build them up. That has to be done in the cups, unless you get a real talent, the likes of Garnacho maybe, who might be used as a sub in games where we're out of sight. But generally, positions in the first 11 are given to proven players who are bought in.

Rashford only made an impact because of an injury in the warm up and a few other injuries to strikers and took his chance, it would take something like that to happen again for a player to break in from the academy.
 
Mr. MUJAC said:
I'm sorry but this is a strange post. Our strategy is to "just hope a few make it but without much real planning".

I fundamentally disagree with this and our history proves it.
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What I mean is the fact we've changed manager with so many different styles/ philosophies, the planning for youth needs to take into consideration the type of football utd play. Is it any wonder so many of our youth don't make it or don't get chances when we've gone from every type of football style from possession under lvg, to defensive under mourinho to counter attack under OGS and pressing under rangnick!

God knows what ETH is going to want but he'll struggle to understand the youth setup to the first team as there just isn't any planning!
 
maximus419 said:
What I mean is the fact we've changed manager with so many different styles/ philosophies, the planning for youth needs to take into consideration the type of football utd play. Is it any wonder so many of our youth don't make it or don't get chances when we've gone from every type of football style from possession under lvg, to defensive under mourinho to counter attack under OGS and pressing under rangnick!

God knows what ETH is going to want but he'll struggle to understand the youth setup to the first team as there just isn't any planning!
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The United youth teams pretty much play the same style regardless of who the first team manager is. It's Academy football. We have always tried to play possession football with an attacking core principle. We certainly never played defensively when Mourinho was around and we never went to a sudden counter attacking team when Solskjaer was in charge.

Ten Hag won't have any trouble understanding the youth set-up and if he wants an input he will give it and be listened to.

Ten hag has been praised for giving 24 youth players debut's in four and half years. United have given 25 players their debut in that same period.

Whilst some have made an impact and others haven't it has nothing to do with giving players an opportunity.

Williams, Greenwood, Henderson were all given very decent chances by Solskjaer. McTominay was introduced by Mourinho whilst Elanga has been in the first team most of the second half of the season.
 
So who are our top first team candidates then ?

Hannibal, Pellistri, Diallo?
Then the likes of Elanga, Williams and Garner ?

FM thinks Pellistri and Diallo / Hannibal have some future in this team but everyone else will be at best squad players.

I trust FM
 
Ali Dia said:
For now it looks like Fernandez, Garnacho, Hannibal, Amad.
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I thought Garnacho was 16 or something. Fernandez plays as a LB and is 19 correct ? I’d suspect he gets some playing time this year before he gets loaned out.

From the little I’ve seen Amad I think he’ll outshine them all if he gets some consistent playing time.
 
Theo88 said:
I thought Garnacho was 16 or something. Fernandez plays as a LB and is 19 correct ? I’d suspect he gets some playing time this year before he gets loaned out.

From the little I’ve seen Amad I think he’ll outshine them all if he gets some consistent playing time.
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To be fair Amad cost twice as much as the next most expensive player listed above. I do really like him and I think he’s got mad skills but he needs to work on his intensity and explosiveness.
 
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