Spot on.I prefer the Manchester United model
Always give youth a chance along side top quality players!
We don't need to follow anyone!
How do you want our club to go about its transfer business?
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Something which doesn't happen in England anywhere near as often as it seems to happen there. Take Ballack, for example, at the time he was easily a 20-30M player (Rooney/Ferdinand fees) and I think you got him for 8M or so even when teams in other countries would have happily paid far more.
My point is this notion of hoovering domestic talent on the cheap is fundamentally flawed if you wanted to transfer it to an EPL environment because:
1. clubs don't sell to rivals except for ridiculous fees
2. release clauses aren't commonplace
3. if a player is hinting at not renewing they get sold before it is too late, preferably abroad
4. British players, like German ones, seem to have a strong preference for staying within their league, but aren't too fussed about destination beyond 4-5 clubs, as opposed to Bayern pretty much being able to sit back and wait for them to come to pappa
It's funny how people want us to go for the Barcelona model building the team around local players. The ONLY reason it worked for Barcelona is because their generation of local players (Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Pique, Messi, Pedro) were amazing. We are not even remotely close to bringing up players like that, which is why we need to do what LvG has been doing, buying a new team.
My vote goes to the galactico model.
My vote goes to the galactico model.
You have to keep in mind that in the Bundesliga, transfer fees are generally much lower than in Spain and especially england. The fees paid within the EPL even for mediocre talent have spiraled out of control completely. Until 3 years ago, 30 Million euros for Mario Gomez was the most any club had ever spent on a single player in Germany. Ballack's transfer was 14 years ago and if I remeber correctly he only had one year left on his contract. Pretty usual fee for a player of his calibre back in the day within the Bundesliga, I'd say, nothing to do with Bayern getting all the players for cheap.
This difference in "value for money" when comparing both markets is the big issue here.
3 happens in Germany, too. But when you e.g. take the Lewandowsky deal - Dortmund did not want to sell to Bayern...
4 Khedira, Özil, Mertesacker, Ter Steegen, Huth, Mustafi, Trapp, Poldolski, Schweinsteiger - there is a lot more - do not ply their trade in Germany. Just because that a lot talents think that it is too early to transfer as the Bundesliga offers them better development - and that some older players are content with their life in Germany - does not mean that Germans stay in their league. But - the Bundesliga is better than a lot of the other leagues and even if it does not pay like the EPL - let's you have a good income. Some prefer being in a European competition to transferring to a club in England without international play.
I just want some big shit poppin' and little shit stoppin'.
Barcelona Model:
GK Marc-André ter Stegen £10m
DF Gerard Piqué (£6m)
MF Ivan Rakitić £14m
MF Sergio Busquets
FW Pedro Rodríguez
MF Andrés Iniesta
FW Luis Suárez £65m
FW Lionel Messi
FW Neymar £71m
MF Rafinha
GK Claudio Bravo £6m
MF Javier Mascherano £17.25m
DF Marc Bartra
DF Douglas £4.4m
DF Jordi Alba £10m
MF Sergi Roberto
DF Adriano £8m
DF Dani Alves £23m +£7m
DF Thomas Vermaelen £15m
DF Jérémy Mathieu £16m
GK Jordi Masip
MF Alex Song £15m
MF Arda Turan £26m
MF Aleix Vidal £13m
Just short of £327m. 24 man squad with just 8 academy players. Let's not pretend they are any different.
As Pentame says, the only reason they had that model is because they hit gold for a generation, just like we did in 1992.
GK Marc-André ter Stegen £10m
DF Gerard Piqué (£6m)
MF Ivan Rakitić £14m
MF Sergio Busquets
FW Pedro Rodríguez
MF Andrés Iniesta
FW Luis Suárez £65m
FW Lionel Messi
FW Neymar £71m
MF Rafinha
GK Claudio Bravo £6m
MF Javier Mascherano £17.25m
DF Marc Bartra
DF Douglas £4.4m
DF Jordi Alba £10m
MF Sergi Roberto
DF Adriano £8m
DF Dani Alves £23m +£7m
DF Thomas Vermaelen £15m
DF Jérémy Mathieu £16m
GK Jordi Masip
MF Alex Song £15m
MF Arda Turan £26m
MF Aleix Vidal £13m
Just short of £327m. 24 man squad with just 8 academy players. Let's not pretend they are any different.
As Pentame says, the only reason they had that model is because they hit gold for a generation, just like we did in 1992.
But they are different to Madrid, we can argue about how different but fundamentally they are run more like us than Madrid, City and Chelsea.
A few concentrating on whether or not I've misrepresented a given teams model, or whether or not a given model is right or wrong. I just want to know who prefers what...
A few concentrating on whether or not I've misrepresented a given teams model, or whether or not a given model is right or wrong. I just want to know who prefers what...
I'd just like us to have the best players in the world in as many positions as possible and win more trophies. If we find them in our academy then good, if we have to buy them, fine.
We should be aiming to be the best of the best. How we get their should be a flexible model, not some rigid regime we stick to because its the 'United way'.
We should be aiming to be the best of the best. How we get their should be a flexible model, not some rigid regime we stick to because its the 'United way'.
Model A is exceptionally difficult in England as the English players are generally hugely overpriced.
We used to have somewhat the Bayern model under Ferguson, now we have the Madrid model.
All in all, I prefer we adopt the Barcelona model.
All in all, I prefer we adopt the Barcelona model.
In general, I'd like us to promote youth but for now we need to spend spend spend spend.
Also, I think every club in the world would like the "Barcelona style" transfers. Who wouldn't want to promote youth from a really good academy and buy players like Neymar as supplement!
Also, I think every club in the world would like the "Barcelona style" transfers. Who wouldn't want to promote youth from a really good academy and buy players like Neymar as supplement!
Agree there's an overall disparity in value for money, that's why regardless of calling it Bayern model or German model, I just don't think it makes any sense in a PL context. "Hoover up reasonably priced national talent". Nope, sorry, you work on the ones you are developing yourself, draw on foreign markets and only occasionally buy locally.
He only just left in his thirties FFS! He is exactly what I was referring to, and very much the path I expect from Müller: zero interest in moving until age starts catching up and he starts falling out of the picture.There's exceptions to the rule here and there, obviously, but Germans are very much like British players in their willingness/interest in moving. The factors you mention are valid, of course, it's a well run league, good living standards, etc. I would say the educational standards the average player has been exposed to are higher than for the average British player, and that also makes a difference obviously: attitude, not priioritising money over anything else, etc.
In any case, the point was that it's a very unique situation that results from various factors, many beyond a club's control, so you can hardly replicate it.
Chelsea model - stockpile players who could potentially be signed by rivals, send the vast bulk who won't make it on loan, and still retain a huge sum when selling to keep the cycle going.
Buy young English talent and also get top international players in as well.
The bayern model works because they have no domestic rivals who can compete economically... We have several
Barca can get the best young talents from all over Spain (we are limited to a certain distance and have to compete with city / liverpool and others) and Barca have many players live there and get many more hours training than we are allowed to live
Madrid is just a much nicer place to live plus they seem to be able to offer great image rights deals.
So e/boue for me
Barca can get the best young talents from all over Spain (we are limited to a certain distance and have to compete with city / liverpool and others) and Barca have many players live there and get many more hours training than we are allowed to live
Madrid is just a much nicer place to live plus they seem to be able to offer great image rights deals.
So e/boue for me
So reasons you've stated aside, you have no preference?
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The option is no brainer
Yes, clearly those youngsters that ply their trade at Vitesse and Middlesbrough were on the verge of signing for the top four sides before Chelsea snapped them up.
E/boue
Are you mad? Some of our fans are bonkers enough, not even taking into account the scousers hijacking it!
Basically do what we've always done, and what Barca does, and Bayern to an extent. The occasional big signing, but mostly top youngsters like Memphis or smart, relatively young but already good players who could become very good ones with that extra push like Darmian, Schneiderlin. You need to have the blend right and I think we have got that this summer.
Bayern model if Manchester was in Germany or The Barca model if Manchester was in Spain.
I like what we are doing. Buying/bringing through people like Deulofeu, Lukaku, Barkley, Stones, Besic, Galloway, Garbutt etc., is much more risky when you're in a position like ours (On the cusp of Europe but always lacking what the top teams has - a true star) but it's way more exciting. Not saying i wouldn't mind us splashing out on a big player if we could though...
I agree with you (if i were a Toffee). You have the makings a good team man, but old Bill needs to get the cheque book out now too - there's no excuses anymore with all the tv deal money that's come in & is coming in.
If you dont spend, then it'll prove my point that Bill's been milkin ya's & proclaiming you's are skint.
My best mate is a Toffee & he agree's with me now that your situation is just like Arsenal only on a lower scale; where the owners just take all the money & skimp on the team.
The team should be the focus of the club & with that - good signings bring success, not Hail Mary youth team products all the time. You need to keep players like Stones & Barkley by investing.
I wouldnt really put much hope in Barkley either tbh. He's not the new Gazza for starters & he hasnt improved in 2 seasons now - regardless of injuries, which have havent been long term criticals anyway..
Bayern is in a unique postion. They're such a dominant force, that any aspiring young German talent will throw in their lot to play there if the opportunity arises. It's like Liverpool in the 80s, but without the existence of Arsenal, Everton, United etc. That allows them to literally set the price of the players they want to get.
Barca's model seems attractive, but our academy has got nothing on theirs, possibly because they have less restrictions on sourcing the best young local talent.
So I think circumstances play a big part on the kind of model that works. Personally I'd rather a youth player make a breakthrough, than buying a established star player.
Barca's model seems attractive, but our academy has got nothing on theirs, possibly because they have less restrictions on sourcing the best young local talent.
So I think circumstances play a big part on the kind of model that works. Personally I'd rather a youth player make a breakthrough, than buying a established star player.
We couldn't do the Bayern model. German players aspire to play for them so they get to hoover up the likes up Gotze, Neuer, Lewandowski etc. from top 4/5 clubs in Germany
If we tried that with English players we'd end up with Andros Townsend
If we tried that with English players we'd end up with Andros Townsend
But it wasnt really a single generation though was it. Xavi came through in the late nineties, Iniesta Mid 2000s, Messi shortly after, Busquets 4 years or so later. In that current team I think only Messi and Pique played for the same underage teams, the rest all came through different periods.
So, no the only reason they have the model isnt because of a single golden generation. They have had exceptional players come out of their academy for over a decade. Those players have been supplemented with the worlds best players and thats what option B in the poll is suggesting.
The Liverpool model.
Phone Southampton for anything and anyone.
Phone Southampton for anything and anyone.
I think our model should be to eventually get to the stage whereby we can supplement the squad with just a few additions each summer and preferably adding one marquee signing each season. Of course, quality permitting, signing the most suitable players for LVG's philosophy is the most important thing and often a star player won't fit in. Angel di Maria a prime example. But you should always look at improving yourself even when at the top, preferably with the best players available.
I always liked the fact we moved for Premier League proven players over the years with some of our most successful signings in recent years; the likes of Rooney, Carrick, Rio, etc, not only having the ability, but also providing longevity. You suspect both Schneiderlin and Shaw to be successes for years to come also. I just don't want to see us become full galactico and abandon the approach our approach towards young talent and namely English players. It's obviously a short stint for LVG here and he wants success immediately, but I'd still like to see a British core here.
In terms of departing players I'm loving our new approach. Gone are the days of sentimentality and giving players who overstayed their welcome chance after chance. We are ruthless. And that's how a big club should act. Players like Young and Fellaini excelled themselves last season and proved key players, but with the additions of Memphis and the Sch's, I think LVG realises that they aren't long-term players and ones that are easily upgraded upon. With the approach to outgoings, we should see a smooth approach of players transitioning from first team players and if standards slip, squad players. Then if they've declined severely they are sold instantly. It probably sounds cold, but you need to keep competitiveness in the squad high and keep players motivated.
I always liked the fact we moved for Premier League proven players over the years with some of our most successful signings in recent years; the likes of Rooney, Carrick, Rio, etc, not only having the ability, but also providing longevity. You suspect both Schneiderlin and Shaw to be successes for years to come also. I just don't want to see us become full galactico and abandon the approach our approach towards young talent and namely English players. It's obviously a short stint for LVG here and he wants success immediately, but I'd still like to see a British core here.
In terms of departing players I'm loving our new approach. Gone are the days of sentimentality and giving players who overstayed their welcome chance after chance. We are ruthless. And that's how a big club should act. Players like Young and Fellaini excelled themselves last season and proved key players, but with the additions of Memphis and the Sch's, I think LVG realises that they aren't long-term players and ones that are easily upgraded upon. With the approach to outgoings, we should see a smooth approach of players transitioning from first team players and if standards slip, squad players. Then if they've declined severely they are sold instantly. It probably sounds cold, but you need to keep competitiveness in the squad high and keep players motivated.