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How bad have our injuries really been this season?

Lentwood

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Wanted to provide some context...

Pau Torres started 27 / 38 games
Konsa started 35 / 38 games (some at RB I know)
Diego Carlos started 20 / 38 games
Lenglet started 14 / 38 games

Mings started 1, as did Callum Chambers

At LB, Lucas Digne started 27 / 38 and Moreno started 11 / 38.

So Villa effectively used four players at CB and two at LB.

Now for the car-crash that is United...

Martinez started 8 / 38 games
Varane started 16 / 38 games
Maguire started 18 / 38 games
Lindelof started 14 / 38 games
Kambwala started 3 / 38 games

37 year old Johnny Evans, signed on a free from relegated Leicester started 15 / 38 games.

Casemiro started 5 / 38 games at CB.

Luke Shaw, our first choice LB and arguably 5th choice CB started 12 / 38 games.

Malacia, our 2nd choice LB, started 0 games...in fact, didn't play a single minute.

It's been widely publicised that United have used 14 different CB combinations...if we wanted to take an even deeper dive, we could look at how many times we had to change our CB partnership in-game.

Martinez was subbed off 6 times from those 8 starts.

Varane was subbed off 4 times from those 16 starts.

Evans was subbed off 7 times from those 15 starts.

Lindelof was subbed off 7 times from those 14 starts.

At LB, Shaw was subbed off 5 times from 12 starts and, as we know, Malacia didn't play at all.

Again, I repeat...much of this is our own fault and this is not a defence of EtH, who I have advocated sacking since Palace at home...but it is impossible, physically impossible for a team to have a "good" season when you're fielding a different CB combination every single week, and that CB combination is having to change again almost every week in-game!

For what it is worth...Saliba started 38 / 38 for Arsenal and Gabriel 36 /38

I am not for one second saying United aren't miles behind Arsenal...but I'd be willing to bet that if you gave them, with their squad, our defensive injuries this season, they'd do equally as poorly.
Added Newcastle, since they are often identified as a team who suffered badly from injuries in 2023/24. Like United, they underperformed significantly compared with 2022/23.

Fabien Schar 36 starts from 38 games
Sven Botman 17 starts from 38 games
Lascelles 16 starts from 38 games
Paul Dummet 5 starts from 38 games

Dan Burn started 33 from 38, presumably mostly at LB.

Keiran Trippier started 28 from 38 at RB.

So again...nothing really like United. Schar was basically an ever-present and Botman and Lascelles started 33 games between them.

LB and RB were basically covered by first-choices Burn and Trippier, with Livramento and Hall (both £30m purchases) acting as natural understudies.

For this to be comparable to United, there would be no 'regular' at CB, there would have to be an extended period in which Schar, Botman, Lascelles, Dummet and Burn were all injured at the same time and none of those players could have started more than 16 games.

Believe me..I'm no EtH defender, but we have been absolutely destroyed by injuries this season.
 

FootballHQ

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OK, but now imagine that Diego Carlos and Lenglet were out too, as well as both of your LBs.

That has been the situation United have found themselves in for most of this season. For prolonged periods, we have had our 8th and 9th choice options at CB and essentially no LBs.

Now, this is not really an "excuse" because its our own fault...but it's impossible to have a good season if you physically can't field a defence half the time.

Villa finished 8pts above United in 4th spot. I am absolutely certain that United would have picked up another 9pts had two of Varane, Maguire, Shaw or Martinez been fit for 35+ games.

Again, our own fault as these are repeat issues that we haven't addressed and some of these players are repeat offenders...but we've had by far the worst of it RE : injuries this season. It's not just about total injuries, its about relentless injuries in one or two key positions.

10 injuries might have relatively little impact on a squad if they are fringe / minor players and spread across multiple positions, but I defy any club do lose 8 defenders at once for half the season + and do well
Wasn't Varane on the bench for a month in the winter? Probably would've got injured earlier but ultimately he was available, just not used and ETH went with Johnny Evans instead.

Everyone knows his brittleness but your best defensive performances of the season have come with Varane starting so would assume he'll be in tomorrow given it's his last game.
 

FootballHQ

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Added Newcastle, since they are often identified as a team who suffered badly from injuries in 2023/24. Like United, they underperformed significantly compared with 2022/23.

Fabien Schar 36 starts from 38 games
Sven Botman 17 starts from 38 games
Lascelles 16 starts from 38 games
Paul Dummet 5 starts from 38 games

Dan Burn started 33 from 38, presumably mostly at LB.

Keiran Trippier started 28 from 38 at RB.

So again...nothing really like United. Schar was basically an ever-present and Botman and Lascelles started 33 games between them.

LB and RB were basically covered by first-choices Burn and Trippier, with Livramento and Hall (both £30m purchases) acting as natural understudies.

For this to be comparable to United, there would be no 'regular' at CB, there would have to be an extended period in which Schar, Botman, Lascelles, Dummet and Burn were all injured at the same time and none of those players could have started more than 16 games.

Believe me..I'm no EtH defender, but we have been absolutely destroyed by injuries this season.
Newcastle had their central midfield decimated in the winter instead. Joelinton, Willock and Elliot Anderson were out for months in that period and of course Tonali got banned so they basically had to go with their last three remaining CMs for ten games consecutively, one of which was 17 year old Lewis Miley.

I would say back to front Newcastle had the most when you think Harvey Barnes was out from October right up to April and Wilson also missed long spells of the season.
 

Lentwood

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Newcastle had their central midfield decimated in the winter instead. Joelinton, Willock and Elliot Anderson were out for months in that period and of course Tonali got banned so they basically had to go with their last three remaining CMs for ten games consecutively, one of which was 17 year old Lewis Miley.

I would say back to front Newcastle had the most when you think Harvey Barnes was out from October right up to April and Wilson also missed long spells of the season.
They didn't have the most, United did - that's not a debate, that's a fact. My point is that it's even worse than it appears because most of our injuries were to key players and they tended to compound in the three key positions, CB, CM and CF.

For the record, Bruno G. started 37 games for Newcastle and Longstaff started 35 games so they had plenty of stability in CM. Joelinton also managed 20 starts, so yeah...sure they might have been impacted but again, it's nothing like what United experienced at CB.

In fact, in CM, Mount only started 14 games, Mainoo 24, after being injured by Casemiro in pre-season, Casemiro has started 25, but at least 5 of those have been as an emergency CB and Eriksen started 22 games. Virtually every single player in our squad has missed 10-15 games minimum this season, bar Dalot and Onana.

Again, I'm not offering this as an excuse necessarily, because it's a constant problem for United and is related to our poor recruitment and EtHs poor squad management. I am saying though that it's probably the difference between a decent season (4th) and the car-crash of a season it became.
 

Lentwood

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Wasn't Varane on the bench for a month in the winter? Probably would've got injured earlier but ultimately he was available, just not used and ETH went with Johnny Evans instead.

Everyone knows his brittleness but your best defensive performances of the season have come with Varane starting so would assume he'll be in tomorrow given it's his last game.
He was seemingly dropped when apparently available for 4 or 5 games I believe...but then we don't know the full story there.

Certainly later in the season he went back to being considered a starter, if available.

There will be some nuances to this for sure, but for the most part we haven't chosen our defence this season, its been made up of which four where available.
 

MadDogg

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OK, but now imagine that Diego Carlos and Lenglet were out too, as well as both of your LBs.

That has been the situation United have found themselves in for most of this season. For prolonged periods, we have had our 8th and 9th choice options at CB and essentially no LBs.

Now, this is not really an "excuse" because its our own fault...but it's impossible to have a good season if you physically can't field a defence half the time.
While we've obviously had a lot of injuries in defence, that's exaggerating things. We've generally had at least two of our main five central defenders fit, it's just that which two they are has constantly been rotating as one gets fit and another gets injured.

It's only been for the last month or two of the season that Kambwala and then Casemiro had to be slotted in, and even then it's been one of them next to one of our main five.
 

Lentwood

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While we've obviously had a lot of injuries in defence, that's exaggerating things. We've generally had at least two of our main five central defenders fit, it's just that which two they are has constantly been rotating as one gets fit and another gets injured.

It's only been for the last month or two of the season that Kambwala and then Casemiro had to be slotted in, and even then it's been one of them next to one of our main five.
I think the vast majority of our fans would agree that our best five CBs are, in no particular order...

Martinez, Varane, Maguire, Shaw, Lindelof

We then also have Evans (who has done admirably but shouldn't be starting in the PL at 36), Casemiro (who isn't a CB) and Kambwala (who isn't ready)

So you could argue "9th choice" is a stretch but there's definitely been two or even three periods this season that we've seen combinations of Evans / Kambwala or Casemiro / Evans.

We've also seen one of the "5" playing injured beside Evans, Kambwala or Casemiro.

I keep coming back to the point but which other Premier League club, bar Club 115, could sustain that many injuries and finish top 6? I personally don't think ANY club could.
 

MadDogg

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I think the vast majority of our fans would agree that our best five CBs are, in no particular order...

Martinez, Varane, Maguire, Shaw, Lindelof

We then also have Evans (who has done admirably but shouldn't be starting in the PL at 36), Casemiro (who isn't a CB) and Kambwala (who isn't ready)

So you could argue "9th choice" is a stretch but there's definitely been two or even three periods this season that we've seen combinations of Evans / Kambwala or Casemiro / Evans.

We've also seen one of the "5" playing injured beside Evans, Kambwala or Casemiro.

I keep coming back to the point but which other Premier League club, bar Club 115, could sustain that many injuries and finish top 6? I personally don't think ANY club could.
While I do agree that Evans would have started the season perhaps at 6th choice, he ended up doing well enough that he moved ahead of Lindelof and Shaw (if he were fit we'd have played Shaw on the left with Evans in the middle rather than Shaw in the middle). In the same way that Maguire moved back up to #3 (#2 for a while during that period that he was ahead of Varane).

So I consider Martinez, Varane, Maguire, Evans and Lindelof as our main five, and we had two of them fit at the same time for most of the season. Admittedly sometimes we probably rushed one of them back a bit early to do so. It's only the last five or six weeks that we ended up having to play only one of them with either Kambwala (7th choice) or Casemiro (8th choice).

Of course that's not disagreeing that our entire season was obviously impacted quite a lot by those constant injuries to the defence. I just don't think it's quite the defining feature of this season or the single biggest reason for the struggles. Even when we've had our strongest, or close to the strongest, defence out there we generally looked poor.
 

Lentwood

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While I do agree that Evans would have started the season perhaps at 6th choice, he ended up doing well enough that he moved ahead of Lindelof and Shaw (if he were fit we'd have played Shaw on the left with Evans in the middle rather than Shaw in the middle). In the same way that Maguire moved back up to #3 (#2 for a while during that period that he was ahead of Varane).

So I consider Martinez, Varane, Maguire, Evans and Lindelof as our main five, and we had two of them fit at the same time for most of the season. Admittedly sometimes we probably rushed one of them back a bit early to do so. It's only the last five or six weeks that we ended up having to play only one of them with either Kambwala (7th choice) or Casemiro (8th choice).

Of course that's not disagreeing that our entire season was obviously impacted quite a lot by those constant injuries to the defence. I just don't think it's quite the defining feature of this season or the single biggest reason for the struggles. Even when we've had our strongest, or close to the strongest, defence out there we generally looked poor.
Well it will come down to personal interpretation but for me, Lindelof (who is the Swedish national team captain) is a better player now than Evans at 36.

I imagine when we signed Evans, we expected him to play one or two games max., but instead he's ended up being our most-featured CB!
 

NZT-One

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Wanted to provide some context...

Pau Torres started 27 / 38 games
Konsa started 35 / 38 games (some at RB I know)
Diego Carlos started 20 / 38 games
Lenglet started 14 / 38 games

Mings started 1, as did Callum Chambers

At LB, Lucas Digne started 27 / 38 and Moreno started 11 / 38.

So Villa effectively used four players at CB and two at LB.

Now for the car-crash that is United...

Martinez started 8 / 38 games
Varane started 16 / 38 games
Maguire started 18 / 38 games
Lindelof started 14 / 38 games
Kambwala started 3 / 38 games
Thanks for pulling that together, I think, that makes a strong case for how bad our injuries were. Injuries still shouldn't be used as some sort of carte blanche for ETH, some of his decisions along the way were a bit weird, but I think, some are underrating the impact of those injuries to make a point against him. I'd chip in with another factor: given that we planned to change our style of play this season, the permanent ongoing injuries really did us dirty in terms of getting used to the new style of play. Such thing is always difficult and takes time but with everchanging personel, things become even more difficult. Again, ETH may or may not have reverted back to last seasons template at some point, I guess he gambled and kind of lost so I, once again, don't want to absolve him of anything here but the injuries we had over the season would have impacted every team in the league. I'd argue even City, even though Pep may have a found a way around it.
 

frostbite

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One thing I have heard on the grapevine is that Ten Hag has a “one size fits all” fitness policy. Where players are driven equally hard to be as fit as possible and run as much as possible during training sessions. That is as far as that information extends.

if it is true, then it would seem to be a pretty big reasons for why we are seeing so many injuries, especially in defence. While the foundation for fitness has to largely be the same, defenders naturally have to cover a lot less ground than other players, and if they are older, this is a huge shock to the body. Generally speaking, as I understand it, most clubs have the finer details of fitness work tailored to the individual age, position, injury predisposition, and current condition of players. But we don’t under Ten Hag.

I have also heard that some players have been getting conflicting advice from their personal trainers or external doctors/surgeons. Someone posted above how Casemiro was told he was fit to play but consulted his doctor back in Spain who told him he wasn’t. I hadn’t heard any specific examples like that, but it certainly backs up what I was told.

What seems very, very clear to me, is that we need a complete overhaul of our medical and fitness department to integrate “best in class” technology, data, and personnel, to create an industry leading fitness department that operates almost autonomously from the head coach and his staff. That way when you change the head coach and his back room team, you keep these best in class assets in place. Their approach can be tweaked in concert with the head coach, but ultimately having the fittest and healthiest squad possible, is a universal principle surely?

The training and playing loads players have these days, mean that a rigorous evidence based approach is required. I would not leave it to the discretion of each head coach. Not at all. Players are our most valuable assets and as such the club should have the absolute best facilities and personnel to manage those assets irrespective of whether the coach is Pep PED Guardiola, or Olé Gunnar do what he wants Solksjaer.

Are there any public sources or articles that discuss whether ETH's training has been the main reason for the injuries?

It seems reasonable to me. ETH has failed in every aspect of football management, so it won't be a surprise if his training is also shit. And ETH seems stubborn and inflexible, so the "one size fits all" sounds like him.
 

Alpha 1

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For those who blame injuries, let me remind you that our first convincing performance was in late late November. We were gobshite before that and after that. Our results typically flattered us. All this is true since the league Cup win in Feb 2023.
 

croadyman

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They have been awful, however if we had someone with the same profiles of Licha & Varane we wouldn't have missed them so much