High-profile killing of UnitedHealthcare CEO in New York

Pogue Mahone said:
I don't know why you're arguing about this. The insurance companies can do plenty of things wrong without being the reason behind the extremely high healthcare costs in the US. But the situation very simple, hey foot the bill for these extreme costs, so they are definitely not the cause of them. As per my previous post, the fact that they will do everything possible to avoid paying the costs is why they're so unpopular. Because if they won't pay then the patient has to (or doesn't get the care they need). None of this is defending these companies, or their business practices. I'm just explaining that they are not the cause of the insane healthcare costs in the US.
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They are the main reason for higher healthcare costs in the US because they keep adding vertically-integrated middlemen to take additional percentages out of the system, they utterly fail to comprehend the importance of preemptive care / screening, and they drive up provider costs by forcing them to waste time and resources on fighting prior authorizations.

Pogue Mahone said:
I don't even...
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This is actually true for the large payers who get percentage rebates via a vertically-integrated PBM. It's one of the many reasons the system is so perverse - the billion-dollar corporations have essentially made a tacit agreement to feck over the uninsured and to abandon any semblance of sustainability.
 
You'd think the days of a murderer vanishing without a trace would be gone, given the proliferation of CCTV, social media and all the other tracking methods and especially so in a city like New York. It's so crazy that they have zero leads for him.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I don't even...
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It's relatively simple, it's a minority of people that are actually reimbursed the equivalent of what they pay. The majority pay their premiums and either rarely actually need to use it or their request is denied, now the way to squeeze more money from that demographic is by having potentially debilitating costs, people are less worried to pay 600$ per month than they are to receive a $1m bill if they end up with cancer. And that principle applies as long as people "can" pay the premiums, if the risk is a $1.5m bill than people will be willing to pay 1200$ per month.
 
JPRouve said:
It's relatively simple, it's a minority of people that are actually reimbursed the equivalent of what they pay. The majority pay their premiums and either rarely actually need to use it or their request is denied, now the way to squeeze more money from that demographic is by having potentially debilitating costs, people are less worried to pay 600$ per month than they are to receive a $1m bill if they end up with cancer. And that principle applies as long as people "can" pay the premiums, if the risk is a $1.5m bill than people will be willing to pay 1200$ per month.
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From the point of view of the patient, it doesn’t matter if the bill for a procedure is $1m or $1.5m. They will pay whatever they can afford as a premium to avoid having to pay that themselves. From the insurers perspective there’s a huge profit margin of they can negotiate the cost of that procedure down by $500k. It’s in their interest to negotiate those costs downwards, not upwards.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
No shit, sherlock. However you waded into a discussion about the very high aggregated cost of healthcare in US. Specifically, you responded to me explaining why this is not caused by health insurance companies
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Firstly, the thread this is being discussed in is called 'High Profile Killing of UnitedHealthcare CEO in New York'.

Secondly, the discussion was simply about the the cost of healthcare in the US. You only defined exactly what you were referring to after the fact (using one of my definitions, incidentally). And the definition you chose is not the one that that most people think of when they think of the cost of healthcare. It's not the definition that is the most relevant to most people's day to day lives. And it's not the definition that would motivate an assassination that would lead to a thread, once again, called 'High Profile Killing of UnitedHealthcare CEO in New York'.

Pogue Mahone said:
Good for you. And that is why the CEO was shot. But, once again this is irrelevant to the post you replied to.
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A business practice of unjust denial of healthcare claims has a pretty high relevance to how much healthcare costs. Obviously. Both directly and indirectly.

Pogue Mahone said:
Nope. It's just nonsense. And I reckon you're smart enough to be aware of this, deep down, if you weren't so desperate to find an angle to use to double down.
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A few other posters have tried in vain to explain the perverse incentive structures that a practice of profiteering through unjustly passing on costs to another payer creates. They're pretty obvious.
 
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How many more CEOs do we reckon have to be gunned down before they simply stop leaving their ivory towers without massive security? 1 or 2 more maybe?

And on a totally unrelated note: should I invest in private security firm stocks? :confused:
 
Pogue Mahone said:
From the point of view of the patient, it doesn’t matter if the bill for a procedure is $1m or $1.5m. They will pay whatever they can afford as a premium to avoid having to pay that themselves. From the insurers perspective there’s a huge profit margin of they can negotiate the cost of that procedure down by $500k. It’s in their interest to negotiate those costs downwards, not upwards.
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For the patient it absolutely matter whether the bill is 1m or 1.5m whether it is from a pratical or optics standpoint. But surely you saw that I mentioned three actors, not just one, these actors happen to work together for the same goal and it is not to reduce the revenues of the others.

Edit: To make my point even clearer UnitedHealth Group is a perfect example, they are insurers and healthcare providers.
 
JPRouve said:
For the patient it absolutely matter whether the bill is 1m or 1.5m whether it is from a pratical or optics standpoint. But surely you saw that I mentioned three actors, not just one, these actors happen to work together for the same goal and it is not to reduce the revenues of the others.
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I don't think you could have explained it any clearer, it may be time to give up.
 
The suspect’s ability to evade capture appears to be tied to his methodical planning, including wearing a mask and a hood during nearly all of his time in New York City and paying with cash everywhere, along with using a fake driver’s license.
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“I don’t think I’ve seen this level of operational preplanning in any crime, never mind in a murder,” said Kenneth E. Corey, a former chief of department in the New York Police Department.
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https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/07/...ytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I don't know why you're arguing about this. The insurance companies can do plenty of things wrong without being the reason behind the extremely high healthcare costs in the US. But the situation very simple, hey foot the bill for these extreme costs, so they are definitely not the cause of them. As per my previous post, the fact that they will do everything possible to avoid paying the costs is why they're so unpopular. Because if they won't pay then the patient has to (or doesn't get the care they need). None of this is defending these companies, or their business practices. I'm just explaining that they are not the cause of the insane healthcare costs in the US.
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And I'm explaining that they are and you're living in a dreamworld which might make sense in theory but bears no relation to observed reality.
 
To establish whether the US insurance system as it exists contributes to the high cost of healthcare, you can simply look at any other country in the world.

Insulin costs around 100 times more in the US than anywhere else, for instance. This is not an accident, it is a product of the system, and how it works. And it works that way not just because of rapacious drugs companies, but because of the insurance companies that support it all.

The insurance industry is absolutely part of the reason that healthcare costs are so high, not the only one, but it is a system that relies on that insurance existing. Which is why the CEOs of those healthcare companies spend millions, and most of their time, ensuring that system continues.
 
Mike Smalling said:
Wearing a mask and paying with cash for 10 whole days?! Insane levels of planning.
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It makes you wonder why so many murders in New York remain unsolved. Just look at the sheer amount of planning that this criminal mastermind had to come up with, to make things difficult for the NYPD. He wore a hood and a mask. At the same time even. The man is basically a shapeshifter. And yet, the NYPD is so close to getting him.
 
HTG said:
It makes you wonder why so many murders in New York remain unsolved. Just look at the sheer amount of planning that this criminal mastermind had to come up with, to make things difficult for the NYPD. He wore a hood and a mask. At the same time even. The man is basically a shapeshifter. And yet, the NYPD is so close to getting him.
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A lot I would imagine. I’m guessing most murders that get solved nowadays are because of sloppiness on the part of the offender or a very clear link to the victim (like a spouse or similar). No obvious link and somewhat careful planning makes it very difficult.
 
Nogbadthebad said:
To establish whether the US insurance system as it exists contributes to the high cost of healthcare, you can simply look at any other country in the world.

Insulin costs around 100 times more in the US than anywhere else, for instance. This is not an accident, it is a product of the system, and how it works. And it works that way not just because of rapacious drugs companies, but because of the insurance companies that support it all.

The insurance industry is absolutely part of the reason that healthcare costs are so high, not the only one, but it is a system that relies on that insurance existing. Which is why the CEOs of those healthcare companies spend millions, and most of their time, ensuring that system continues.
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Exactly right, and that's why so many here in the UK want that system and it's why the Tories tried their fecking hardest to make the NHS fail over the last 14 years. They want to invest in insurance companies and make millions themselves and also get rid of a system they never wanted because they can't stand the idea of people getting something for free.

The fecking nerve of them getting everyone to clap for the NHS during lockdown was peak Tory hypocrisy and cuntishness on a level not seen before. All the while they were trying to rip it apart and sell it off to the highest bidder. Wankers.
 
Mike Smalling said:
A lot I would imagine. I’m guessing most murders that get solved nowadays are because of sloppiness on the part of the offender or a very clear link to the victim (like a spouse or similar). No obvious link and somewhat careful planning makes it very difficult.
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I was being ironic. They must be even more incompetent than I believe, if that’s enough to make their boss come out and basically say that this man must be the biggest criminal genius in history.
After hearing that, I’m actually very confident that I could easily get away with murder in New York.
 
HTG said:
I was being ironic. They must be even more incompetent than I believe, if that’s enough to make their boss come out and basically say that this man must be the biggest criminal genius in history.
After hearing that, I’m actually very confident that I could easily get away with murder in New York.
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Yeah, but I don’t think this is an NYPD thing, like some seem to suggest.
 
Mike Smalling said:
You think they are more incompetent that other police departments in the US or around the world for this matter?
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Around the world. Most cops in the US receive so little training and have an educational background so bad, that they don’t compare with European ones. I understand that these issues vary in the US dependent on the state. But overall, I think they are shockingly unqualified for their jobs.
Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t it enough to have served some time in the military to be eligible to become a cop in many states?
 
HTG said:
Around the world. Most cops in the US receive so little training and have an educational background so bad, that they don’t compare with European ones. I understand that these issues vary in the US dependent on the state. But overall, I think they are shockingly unqualified for their jobs.
Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t it enough to have served some time in the military to be eligible to become a cop in many states?
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I think that’s true in general, but I imagine there is a difference between detectives and your average street level cop. The ones that make it to detective have to know what they are doing, would be my guess.
 
The suspect’s ability to evade capture appears to be tied to his methodical planning, including wearing a mask and a hood during nearly all of his time in New York City and paying with cash everywhere, along with using a fake driver’s license.
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“I don’t think I’ve seen this level of operational preplanning in any crime, never mind in a murder,” said Kenneth E. Corey, a former chief of department in the New York Police Department.
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:lol: This is Police Chief Wiggum level of comical, cash & a mask for a whole week, give the poor coppers a chance Mr Murderer!
 
Mike Smalling said:
I think that’s true in general, but I imagine there is a difference between detectives and your average street level cop. The ones that make it to detective have to know what they are doing, would be my guess.
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Bit random but I got taxi with someone whose daughter is a detective in the Dublin police force (Criminal Assets force). Stuff I learned. She didn't need any additional qualifications before getting the job. They basically just recruit the best/smartest police from the "regular" force. She has a gun in her house and it's not in a safe. She has to park her car with the rear to the road, as the quickest way to spot an unmarked police car is the fact they don't have insurance discs on the windscreen.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Bit random but I got taxi with someone whose daughter is a detective in the Dublin police force (Criminal Assets force). Stuff I learned. She didn't need any additional qualifications before getting the job. They basically just recruit the best/smartest police from the "regular" force. She has a gun in her house and it's not in a safe. She has to park her car with the rear to the road, as the quickest way to spot an unmarked police car is the fact they don't have insurance discs on the windscreen.
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So what your telling me is the film The Guard is more of a documentary than it is fiction.
 
ALTOONA, Pa. (WJAC) — According to reports from multiple news outlets, including MSNBC, NYPD detectives are reportedly en route to Altoona, Pennsylvania to question a man in connection to the investigation into the killing of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson.

Sources say that a man is reportedly being held for questioning after he was allegedly found with a gun that was similar to the one that was reportedly used in the shooting.

ABC News is reporting that the man was allegedly was found in possession of a fake ID.
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https://wjactv.com/news/local/repor...ceo-nypd-pennsylvania-new-york-brian-thompson
 
The NYPD were making the guy out to be some sort of evasive genius. If the suspect is the shooter, getting caught with the murder weapon and the fake ID you used during your time in New York would be pretty moronic.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Sadly, healthcare systems all over the world are broken. Thanks to aging populations and governments who are trying to keep on top of spiralling debts. It's really difficult to find an example of any system, anywhere, that is in great working order and massive waitlists and declining health outcomes are happening all over the world (small, very wealthy countries like Norway or various gulf states are probably as good as it gets?) What makes America kind of unique, though, is the off the charts expense of making sick people well. I do think it's a big outlier on that specific issue.
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Drugs here can be 10 to 20x more expensive, and hospitals are known to overcharge if they can get away with it. A hospital could charge 10x what a procedure costs if there is no check on it (the insurance company).

If you go to the ER, a lot of unnecessary scans may be performed if you let them. In socialized medicine that doesn‘t happen.

We know how to navigate all these things, but many end up in big debt.
 
Brophs said:
Man couldn’t live without those nuggs.
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Quite a turnaround from criminal genius to idiot who didn't ditch the gun and couldn't stay at home for a while until his image wasn't burned into everyone's mind.
 
NLunited said:
Drugs here can be 10 to 20x more expensive, and hospitals are known to overcharge if they can get away with it. A hospital could charge 10x what a procedure costs if there is no check on it (the insurance company).

If you go to the ER, a lot of unnecessary scans may be performed if you let them. In socialized medicine that doesn‘t happen.

We know how to navigate all these things, but many end up in big debt.
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Yeah, I mentioned up thread how I spent a summer elective at a hospital (Crufts) in Boston. It was a real eye opener to someone who trained in Europe (Ireland) It’s drilled into us since we were students to think about the cost of everything we do. In Crufts they just did not give a shit about the cost of anything. Really crazy stuff like full blood counts every day of a hospital stay for patients who weren’t bleeding. Or a whole battery of obscure immunological tests to rule out autoimmune endocrinological causes for a very slightly elevated sodium, picked up after an unnecessary renal function test. Couldn’t get my head around it at all.
 
Scandi Red said:
How many more CEOs do we reckon have to be gunned down before they simply stop leaving their ivory towers without massive security? 1 or 2 more maybe?

And on a totally unrelated note: should I invest in private security firm stocks? :confused:
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answer to second question is yes, or at least public companies supplying materials to such security firms
 
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