High-profile killing of UnitedHealthcare CEO in New York

nimic said:
No, but it didn't hurt. John Brown didn't end slavery, but he certainly played his part in bringing about the conditions that made it possible.
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Nah, only legislation works, everything else has no value or influence and exists in a vacuum, disconnected from what came before and after.

Never do anything and just let the laws work themselves out.
 
dumbo said:
This argument that says how can we hold indjvidual cogs within a system personally responsible when they are merely a one cog that answers to bigger cogs, and how can we ever draw a line on which cogs get held responsible when each cog is connected to the next, is fecking weak.

There is very famous historical precedent that shows we can acknowledge that a system is wrong but also acknowledge individuals within the system as being morally and/or legally accountable.

The last I looked, a CEO is pretty far up the chain. And their responsibility and culpability for exploitative practices is going to be bigger than the minimum wage employee downstairs in the mail room. Making these distinctions is quite possible.
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Most would agree with this. We can hold individuals accountable. We must, in fact.

But from what I’ve read, the core disagreement emerges not when people state that the CEO is culpable, but when people suggest he deserved to be murdered.
 
jungledrums said:
Most would agree with this. We can hold individuals accountable. We must, in fact.

But from what I’ve read, the core disagreement emerges not when people state that the CEO is culpable, but when people suggest he deserved to be murdered.
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What's the alternative? People like him are above the law, they will never have to deal with the consequences of their actions, generally speaking.
 
GePBcdvXYAApwwH
 
Has any big name politician ,from either side, commented on this ?
It seems quite quiet from either side.
 
FrankDrebin said:
Has any big name politician ,from either side, commented on this ?
It seems quite quiet from either side.
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Its one of these rare incidents which has attracted schadenfreude from all sides of the political spectrum - the red pill MAGA loons, progressives as well as ordinary centrists who've likely been shafted by the pariahlike practices of insurance companies. Absolutely no one is sympathetic to this parasite. The Republicans probably are since they're ideological bedfellows, but won't risk alienating their 'red pilled' base.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
People are looking at the problem the wrong way.

Unscrupulous CEO's are not the problem. They're the symptom of the problem.

Like every other thing that eventually died off due to morality issues through the relevant bills being passed (Slavery, Kids working in factories, workhouses, child conscription, naval piracy, state sanctioned kidnapping and privateering etc etc etc), the change will only come from good governance and policy at the state level.

People always have been, remain so, and always will be greedy cnuts. . up to the legal and governing system to mitigate that as much as possible.
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That's a very naiive view of how systemic change has happened historically. It might happen through legislation eventually. Usually after long and hard thought mass movements. Which have historically involved a lot of violence, including full-blown warfare in many cases.
 
Kaos said:
Its one of these rare incidents which has attracted schadenfreude from all sides of the political spectrum - the red pill MAGA loons, progressives as well as ordinary centrists who've likely been shafted by the pariahlike practices of insurance companies. Absolutely no one is sympathetic to this parasite. The Republicans probably are since they're ideological bedfellows, but won't risk alienating their 'red pilled' base.
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I think it’s a bit more complicated than that

These pharmaceutical companies donate millions to both parties to ensure the regulatory framework stays in their favour

If any politician speaks out they are opening up a potential PR shitstorm with this one
 
AfonsoAlves said:
People are looking at the problem the wrong way.

Unscrupulous CEO's are not the problem. They're the symptom of the problem.

Like every other thing that eventually died off due to morality issues through the relevant bills being passed (Slavery, Kids working in factories, workhouses, child conscription, naval piracy, state sanctioned kidnapping and privateering etc etc etc), the change will only come from good governance and policy at the state level.
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Nah, all the good stuff started with at least an initial burst of high profile socially conscious violence. Then 50 years later middle class liberals get to pretend it was all down to polite political gerrymandering whilst casually disavowing any current equivalents

Also, slavery was defeated entirely thought good governance was it?… Slavery?…REALLY!?
 
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dumbo said:
What a completely brainless moral abdication.

Slave plantation owners weren't the problem they were symptoms of a system.

Idi Amin's generals weren't the problem they were actually victims to the systems.
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I mean Idi Amin's people were the system, so it's a pointless strawman.

Using moral relativity to try and paint a picture is always pointless. It's not brainless to suggest that humans with power will always abuse that power without the right guard-rails. Whether that be slave owners, pirates, factory owners etc.

Slave owners existed because they were given the platform to exist. Governments normalized them, encouraged them and gave merchants trade charters to encourage them.

Constantly believing that the average person is good and that it doesn't take decades of frameworks and legislation to get rid of certain practices is the naive view.

It took thousands of years of societal development for people to realize that genociding each other over religious beliefs is wrong - and that still isn't the prevailing view in many countries.

But hey, let's just say that every single person alive during the 30 years war was just a horrible cnut of a human being who were all morally depraved. Cause that's the right analysis right?

The average age of a roman woman who married was 17, the average age of a roman man was 28 when they married. Guess all the Romans were morally depraved nonces?

Horrible CEO's exist because the environment of our modern economic societies allow them to. Topple one of them and another one just replaces them. It's a problem that needs to be solved by having societal reform. Going after the individuals doesn't solve the issue.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
I mean Idi Amin's people were the system, so it's a pointless strawman.

Using moral relativity to try and paint a picture is always pointless. It's not brainless to suggest that humans with power will always abuse that power without the right guard-rails. Whether that be slave owners, pirates, factory owners etc.

Slave owners existed because they were given the platform to exist. Governments normalized them, encouraged them and gave merchants trade charters to encourage them.

Constantly believing that the average person is good and that it doesn't take decades of frameworks and legislation to get rid of certain practices is the naive view.

It took thousands of years of societal development for people to realize that genociding each other over religious beliefs is wrong - and that still isn't the prevailing view in many countries.

But hey, let's just say that every single person alive during the 30 years war was just a horrible cnut of a human being who were all morally depraved. Cause that's the right analysis right?

The average age of a roman woman who married was 17, the average age of a roman man was 28 when they married. Guess all the Romans were morally depraved nonces?

Horrible CEO's exist because the environment of our modern economic societies allow them to. Topple one of them and another one just replaces them. It's a problem that needs to be solved by having societal reform. Going after the individuals doesn't solve the issue.
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And yet the conversation is happening because this guy went after one...
 
Mockney said:
Nah, all the good stuff started with at least an initial burst of high profile socially conscious violence. Then 50 years later middle class liberals get to pretend it was all down to polite political gerrymandering whilst casually disavowing any current equivalents

Also, Slavery was defeated entirely thought good governance was it?… REALLY?.
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Well, yes

It was Lincoln's election and his promise of restriction of slavery that triggered the civil war.

Read into the actual position of Lincoln and the Unionists in 1860. It wasn't abolition - it was restriction of the expansion of slaves, not for existing slaves to be freed.

Harpers ferry incident actually incited a negative response in the Northern states. For many Northern states, the civil war was for the preservation of the Union, not for abolition in its entirety. Only states like MA actually had pretty strong anti-slavery stances. There's a hell of a lot of nuance here. It wasn't until 1861-62 that the Union soldiers were actually fighting for the cause of abolitionism, at first the conscripts were there because they had to be.

Also, I already explained that the Civil war in itself was violence sanctioned by governments and triggered by policy (or hypothetical policy as the Southern states left before Lincoln even set anything in motion).

It wasn't the case of angry Northerners marching south freeing the slaves demanding justice in mass uproar of vigilantism. It was government policy that triggered the whole civil war.
 
TwoSheds said:
And yet the conversation is happening because this guy went after one...
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Surely, surely I cannot be the only person who has been thinking that the US healthcare system is completely broken and needs urgent reform for decades?

This CEO being killed has not bought this to anyones attention. Anyone living or paying close attention to the US has been aware of how broken it is and how bad it is for years and years. We've had two decades of politicians on all sides of the spectrum proclaiming they will fix it.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
Surely, surely I cannot be the only person who has been thinking that the US healthcare system is completely broken and needs urgent reform for decades?

This CEO being killed has not bought this to anyones attention. Anyone living or paying close attention to the US has been aware of how broken it is and how bad it is for years and years. We've had two decades of politicians on all sides of the spectrum proclaiming they will fix it.
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But now you've got ordinary folks of all persuasions discussing it and finding they're largely in violent agreement, no matter the colour of their candidate's rosette. More of that please.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
I mean Idi Amin's people were the system, so it's a pointless strawman.

Using moral relativity to try and paint a picture is always pointless. It's not brainless to suggest that humans with power will always abuse that power without the right guard-rails. Whether that be slave owners, pirates, factory owners etc.

Slave owners existed because they were given the platform to exist. Governments normalized them, encouraged them and gave merchants trade charters to encourage them.

Constantly believing that the average person is good and that it doesn't take decades of frameworks and legislation to get rid of certain practices is the naive view.

It took thousands of years of societal development for people to realize that genociding each other over religious beliefs is wrong - and that still isn't the prevailing view in many countries.

But hey, let's just say that every single person alive during the 30 years war was just a horrible cnut of a human being who were all morally depraved. Cause that's the right analysis right?

The average age of a roman woman who married was 17, the average age of a roman man was 28 when they married. Guess all the Romans were morally depraved nonces?

Horrible CEO's exist because the environment of our modern economic societies allow them to. Topple one of them and another one just replaces them. It's a problem that needs to be solved by having societal reform. Going after the individuals doesn't solve the issue.
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Governmental policies that restricted abuse of power didn't happen altruistically
 
AfonsoAlves said:
Yeah, i'm not arguing that the CEO being murdered here deserves any sympathy (hint, he's a prick), but he's a symptom of a system that enables him and allows him to be able to do the things he does.

Rather than trying to go around killing all these CEO types, the better solution is to prevent the CEO from actually being able to do the things he/she does.
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100% agree, but you forget the part where you explain how (realistically)
 
If it's a CEO's duty to cause harm and kill people because that is his job, isn't to assassinate the assassin's job?
 
Tarrou said:
we could all ask nicely?
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It is on the 100% agree with what he says. I do believe that this would be the way to go. But as realistically nothibg will changr, only violence (that certainly i dont want it because usually innocents they get caught in the middle) seems the only way big changes in society happens. Meanwhile i will wait for him or anyone else to explain another realistic path
 
AfonsoAlves said:
Surely, surely I cannot be the only person who has been thinking that the US healthcare system is completely broken and needs urgent reform for decades?

This CEO being killed has not bought this to anyones attention. Anyone living or paying close attention to the US has been aware of how broken it is and how bad it is for years and years. We've had two decades of politicians on all sides of the spectrum proclaiming they will fix it.
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You cannot be serious. It has brought global attention to a system and problem that has and is ongoing. It's also been an enormous unifier and platform for discussion within the US itself.
 
Sweet Square said:
The cops might have just took 3 days to find a backpack that was deliberately left for them.

$5.74 billion a year for these guys.
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have a feeling the cops will find the guy because we live in the evil universe, but them saying they will use AI gave me some hope.
 
Fortitude said:
You cannot be serious. It has brought global attention to a system and problem that has and is ongoing. It's also been an enormous unifier and platform for discussion within the US itself.
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This is like saying the past 2 weeks of Syria has alerted people to the civil war.

I'm sorry but you have to be living under a rock to not be aware of the general problem of US healthcare.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
This is like saying the past 2 weeks of Syria has alerted people to the civil war.

I'm sorry but you have to be living under a rock to not be aware of the general problem of US healthcare.
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there was an entire election not very long ago and it was never brought up seriously by either candidate.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
This is like saying the past 2 weeks of Syria has alerted people to the civil war.

I'm sorry but you have to be living under a rock to not be aware of the general problem of US healthcare.
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That's an incredibly narrow world view. There comes a point where people around the world are exposed to things they had no prior knowledge of; this assassination is a revelatory for many, and they are now playing catch up on those who are better informed on the state of the US when it comes to healthcare.

From your response, I will take it you are not following social media and the wealth of information this incident has elicited. It's actually quite phenomenal.
 
Kaos said:
Its one of these rare incidents which has attracted schadenfreude from all sides of the political spectrum - the red pill MAGA loons, progressives as well as ordinary centrists who've likely been shafted by the pariahlike practices of insurance companies. Absolutely no one is sympathetic to this parasite. The Republicans probably are since they're ideological bedfellows, but won't risk alienating their 'red pilled' base.
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Ben Shapiro tried to say only deranged, amoral liberals were celebrating and his followers seem to have given a lot of push back.


FrankDrebin said:
Has any big name politician ,from either side, commented on this ?
It seems quite quiet from either side.
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Waltz expressed condolences early.
 
From The New Yorker:
a health-insurance conglomerate valued at five hundred and sixty billion dollars. UnitedHealthcare had two hundred and eighty-one billion dollars in revenue in 2023, and Thompson, who became C.E.O. in 2021, had raised annual profits from twelve billion dollars to sixteen billion dollars during his tenure. He received more than ten million dollars in compensation last year.
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And he did it all by gifting hugs and rainbows and lollipops to children and homeless puppies.

Him just a ickle cog in the big bad machine. What more could he possibly do? Stop looking at him! it's the system that did it!
 
dumbo said:
From The New Yorker:

And he did it all by gifting hugs and rainbows and lollipops to children and homeless puppies.

Him just a ickle cog in the big bad machine. What more could he possibly do? Stop looking at him! it's the system that did it!
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It’s always the system and not the individual. That’s why in Nuremberg, we sentenced the system to death by hanging. No Nazis anymore.
 
I think this is worth adding too:
A chief executive officer (CEO),[1] also known as a chief executive or managing director, is the top-ranking corporate officer charged with the management of an organization, usually a company or a nonprofit organization.

As an executive officer of the company, the CEO reports the status of the business to the board of directors, motivates employees, and drives change within the organization. As a manager, the CEO presides over the organization's day-to-day operations.[5][6][7] The CEO is the person who is ultimately accountable for a company's business decisions, including those in operations, marketing, business development, finance, human resources, etc.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_executive_officer

And maybe it will transpire that none of this applies to old Thomo and he didn't really have any decision making power in the company and he was actually just a small child that won a competition. But it's quite reasonable to assume that this guy is responsible for doing some stuff in this massively expoitative company. I'unno.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
Horrible CEO's exist because the environment of our modern economic societies allow them to. Topple one of them and another one just replaces them. It's a problem that needs to be solved by having societal reform. Going after the individuals doesn't solve the issue.
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It won't solve the issue, due to it being structural as you say, but, while I'm not condoning it, it does crystalise the issue. Talk of structural reform doesn't quite focus minds on the need for immediate change. Agitators have often used violence to spark ideological and structural change, especially if there is plutocracy insulated by the structure. Puncturing the insulation can inspire mass involvement and start momentum.
 
VorZakone said:
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The guy sure brought a lot of jackets. It's the third different one he's supposed to be spotted in. But he also got two different backpacks, so maybe he's a bit of a compulsive hoarder. Might explain why he brought his monopoly money with him.

Or
They are looking for a guy with a nose and eyes, and eyebrows (either thick or thin), and in a dark jacket (a green cheap looking parka, or a brown expensive looking parka, or a black padded jacket), with a backpack (dark or light).
And that is the extent to which they "identified" him, as the NYC mayor was proud to claim.
 
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