Hated, adored, never ignored - History lesson please: When did this *really* become a thing?

Fortitude

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So, I'm sure I'm no more unique for being indoctrinated by my Grandpa and Dad in turn than most supporters, at least those born in the UK (if not Europe), and as far as I'm aware, Manchester United were the nation's darlings from the inception of the Busby Babes and straight through to the 60's, with Law, Charlton and particularly Best, drawing eyes to the club from from and wide. Is this correct so far? If it is, and that takes up to the 70's, the goodwill would have gone through to the 70's?

Liverpool went on their tear up from that point to the end of the 80's; was any true ill will towards United engendered during that period? True ill will as in hatred.

This was the time of hooliganism, and United were no angels, to put it lightly, but any worse than the infamous firms across the country? Surely not?

So then, has all the hatred for us come about because of the Fergie era? The anti United stance is very clear and apparent from sections of the media; is it solely because of how Fergie treated them (held them with rightful disdain and contempt for the most part) or is there something else to it? I can understand fans of a certain age, who watched us win so much as unapologetically as we did, and of course, some of them came of age and went into journalism and the media circuit, but is that all it is or is there any deeper-seated reasons I'm unaware of?

This is a subject that fascinates me more since we're not the juggernaut we used to be and yet the sentiment and hatred toward us burns as fiercely, so I wanted to get the takes of the forum as to why that is. If it is just because of Fergie's era, that'll be rather disappointing and uneventful, but I can't imagine the anti-United sentiment to be anything like it is now in the 70's or any point prior to that.
 
70s. We were hated by a lot of other teams fans. Been going on from there. Back then Utd could snap their fingers at 80% of the players in the first division and they would want to come, that probably didnt help either. Shoot had a poll around mid 70s I remember and after Leeds and Millwall, we were 3rd most hated team by opposition fans.
 
On another forum I browse (general football forum but happebs to be dominated by rival teams' supporters),
it is often claimed that Utd have the refs in their pockets, that certain penalty calles are only ever given at Old Trafford etc etc.

I understood where these bitter claims came from when we were winning everything under the sun,
when we had Fergie, Keane, Schmeichel, and also other veterans later on who could pressurise a ref...

But being scared of refereeing Utd games at present is an absolute fairytale.

It's akin to an American tourist in Vietnam fearing the locals because of stuff that used to be.

These are all younger-ish fans, aged 20-40, so it's got to be the Fergie years.
 
Yep I've listened to the usual crap as well over the years about oh it's OT they get everything there etc etc it's even come from opposition managers pundits as well.

I don't like the term Man Utd either if correct comes from the Busby babes after Munich .. there was a bit about it on here I think could have been a different forum.. its derogatory towards the players who passed away? I never use it never have.. its Utd for me.. you don't here Leeds U Sheffield U etc etc it's only Man Utd ..

Go Abroad on hols take Utd towel or something feck me the abuse you can get off opposition fans , some of them not even same division.

Systematically hated because we've been successful over the years.. build a legacy other clubs will never get no matter how much money they get given.. Man Utd term won't change it?
 
wolvored said:
70s. We were hated by a lot of other teams fans. Been going on from there. Back then Utd could snap their fingers at 80% of the players in the first division and they would want to come, that probably didnt help either. Shoot had a poll around mid 70s I remember and after Leeds and Millwall, we were 3rd most hated team by opposition fans.
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Was the animosity towards us the same then as it is now?
 
ScholesyTheWise said:
On another forum I browse (general football forum but happebs to be dominated by rival teams' supporters),
it is often claimed that Utd have the refs in their pockets, that certain penalty calles are only ever given at Old Trafford etc etc.

I understood where these bitter claims came from when we were winning everything under the sun,
when we had Fergie, Keane, Schmeichel, and also other veterans later on who could pressurise a ref...

But being scared of refereeing Utd games at present is an absolute fairytale.

It's akin to an American tourist in Vietnam fearing the locals because of stuff that used to be.

These are all younger-ish fans, aged 20-40, so it's got to be the Fergie years.
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Not only that, it has been a self-evident fact for quite some time now that refs go out of their way to be as harsh on United and as lenient on our opponents as the rules allow, because they know in the backs of their minds that anything they give us will be scrutinized for days or weeks in the media. To claim that we've been favored by the refs in recent years is a declaration of idiocy and blind, irrational bias. People just let their hatred form their opinions without any basis whatsoever in reality. We get cheated by the refs on a weekly basis because there are so many ABUs who are desperate for any excuse to attack a ref who gives us anything at all. This is doing real damage to our results every year.
 
I was wondering on Saturday if true neutrals might have been supporting United. City are so boring and arrogant only a true blue could really love them.
So maybe for just one day we weren't the unfavourites(!).
 
We’ve simply had more rivalries and beat other good teams on our way to success. Can’t think of many other teams who has had the same amount of rivalries from outside their city

Arsenal - pizzagate, Wenger
Liverpool - best team in england rivalry+the canal
Leeds - old hatred, everyone hated Leeds
City - same town
Newcastle hate us due to Keegan/us beating them.

And then there’s many memorable smaller incidents that tells a story of why teams dont like us where we’ve trumphed teams on our way to success. Incidents like the Tottenham over the line-episode.

It mostly stems from success, but The Red Army was thugs in every city they went and possibly the largest hooligan base in the hooligan era too. Understandable it’s also hard to beat a large mob like them off the field, so even that part is about who usually won.
 
ROFLUTION said:
We’ve simply had more rivalries and beat other good teams on our way to success. Can’t think of many other teams who has had the same amount of rivalries from outside their city

Arsenal - pizzagate, Wenger
Liverpool - best team in england rivalry+the canal
Leeds - old hatred, everyone hated Leeds
City - same town
Newcastle hate us due to Keegan/us beating them.

And then there’s many memorable smaller incidents that tells a story of why teams dont like us where we’ve trumphed teams on our way to success. Incidents like the Tottenham over the line-episode.

It mostly stems from success, but The Red Army was thugs in every city they went and possibly the largest hooligan base in the hooligan era too. Understandable it’s also hard to beat a large mob like them off the field, so even that part is about who usually won.
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Good point about the different rivalries. I know a couple of Chelsea fans who absolutely detest Utd due to "their fans being the most entitled bunch on the planet". Yes we have many of those, but coming from them.... nah.

Oh and Stoke isn't the best place to walk in your United gear, is it? o
on my first trip to England, I walked about with my Scholes 18# (AIG sponsor, red) shirt on my way to some games, via different trains, quite oblivious to the fact that United are hated in the way they actually are.

I got someone telling me "it's the wrong feckin town to be wearing this one" at London Euston, quite hostile but nothing serious,
and I had quite a couple of people booing me as I climed up some stairs at a train station in Stoke, think it was stoke-on-trent...
they give me some shit until they realized I was a forein fan who barely understood their accent heh.

Anyway, Stoke City fans hate us more than I would have thought. maybe Wigan, Bolton as well?
 
Hughie77 said:
I don't like the term Man Utd either if correct comes from the Busby babes after Munich .. there was a bit about it on here I think could have been a different forum.. its derogatory towards the players who passed away? I never use it never have.. its Utd for me.. you don't here Leeds U Sheffield U etc etc it's only Man Utd ..
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It's "Man Utd" which is the really bad one though?

Edit: Oh right, it is autocorrected! My bad :D
 
ScholesyTheWise said:
Good point about the different rivalries. I know a couple of Chelsea fans who absolutely detest Utd due to "their fans being the most entitled bunch on the planet". Yes we have many of those, but coming from them.... nah.

Oh and Stoke isn't the best place to walk in your United gear, is it? o
on my first trip to England, I walked about with my Scholes 18# (AIG sponsor, red) shirt on my way to some games, via different trains, quite oblivious to the fact that United are hated in the way they actually are.

I got someone telling me "it's the wrong feckin town to be wearing this one" at London Euston, quite hostile but nothing serious,
and I had quite a couple of people booing me as I climed up some stairs at a train station in Stoke, think it was stoke-on-trent...
they give me some shit until they realized I was a forein fan who barely understood their accent heh.

Anyway, Stoke City fans hate us more than I would have thought. maybe Wigan, Bolton as well?
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The fact that Stoke and Bolton have so much hatred for us is weird.
 
I don't recall a time when everyone outside of supporters didn't hate United.
 
lex talionis said:
I don't recall a time when everyone outside of supporters didn't hate United.
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Yeah we're probably the most hated by other fans, I think only Arsenal can really compete and that is because of recent times and their infamous fan channel. Funnily enough I'd say Everton fans are probably the fans I've had the best interactions with and they hate us as well but I'd say its the least.
 
the_cliff said:
Yeah we're probably the most hated by other fans, I think only Arsenal can really compete and that is because of recent times and their infamous fan channel. Funnily enough I'd say Everton fans are probably the fans I've had the best interactions with and they hate us as well but I'd say its the least.
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Everton fans stole a place in my heart forever when they put up that immortal banner after Suarez racially abused Evra and then Liverpool decided to honor Suarez by wearing t-shirts in his honor for doing what he did to Evra:

Ashamed of Nothing Outraged by Everything

I can't find a photo of it online but my recollection is very clear.
 
Hughie77 said:
Yep I've listened to the usual crap as well over the years about oh it's OT they get everything there etc etc it's even come from opposition managers pundits as well.

I don't like the term Man Utd either if correct comes from the Busby babes after Munich .. there was a bit about it on here I think could have been a different forum.. its derogatory towards the players who passed away? I never use it never have.. its Utd for me.. you don't here Leeds U Sheffield U etc etc it's only Man Utd ..

Go Abroad on hols take Utd towel or something feck me the abuse you can get off opposition fans , some of them not even same division.

Systematically hated because we've been successful over the years.. build a legacy other clubs will never get no matter how much money they get given.. Man Utd term won't change it?
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I think it’s Man Ure.
 
thisisnottaken1 said:
Fair enough. But why Stoke?
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I think it's mostly just because they kind of hate everyone and saw us as the biggest scalp. We also managed to do well that their place more often than the other top teams when they were in the Premier League, but they'd always make it hostile for visitors. We had some enjoyable hard-fought victories there. I remember a Boxing Day game when Tevez scored the only goal late on, and the Chicharito back-header game where we won 2-1. Very satisfying to win games like that when you've been in a battle.

Was thinking there might have been past trouble between fans/firms as they're quite well known for that too, although we wouldn't have played them that often. Apparently there was something all the way back in 1970.

They're sort of a bit isolated geographically other than Port Vale. They have West Brom and Wolves who they consider rivals about 35 miles away, Derby roughly the same. After that they're about 45 miles to Manchester and Birmingham so I suppose we're one of the closest big clubs. Might have played a small part. I don't really know!

On a side-note I love how Pulis and Sir Alex got on, they're close. Very different styles of course, similar to the Sir Alex and Big Sam friendship.
 
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The biggest issue is the media play on it because United generates clicks and most importantly money. Look at any comment section on the BBC relating United and it will be triple the next club. Talksport on a daily basis bring up United in any conversation. Only this evening their topic of conversation was how United didn’t celebrate the FA cup enough compared to Olympiakos winning the Conference league. I think all United fans were delighted to beat City so it’s a false narrative. The negative press is constant and now ingrained in opposition fans. How anyone can currently hate United over City is beyond me.
 
Hughie77 said:
I don't like the term Man Utd either if correct comes from the Busby babes after Munich .. there was a bit about it on here I think could have been a different forum.. its derogatory towards the players who passed away? I never use it never have.. its Utd for me.. you don't here Leeds U Sheffield U etc etc it's only Man Utd ..
Click to expand...

I know what you were trying to say there. The site auto corrected it to Man Utd as it doesn't like it either.

Not sure I buy it myself. I'm not old enough to remember those times, nowhere near but the first I ever heard of it must have been in the mid 2000s. It was online somewhere and I'd been going to games since the mid/late 80s. Born and bred in Manchester. There was a thread on it on Red Issue (if you know, you know) and it was news to everyone on there too.

I remember when I was young we even sang a chant with that way of the saying the team in it. The "clapping chant" that lots of teams did, shouting the team name out at the end. Doubt the Stretford End would have been doing that if it was offensive to our own club, why would we? Especially at a time where our supporter base would have proportionally been more Mancunian so you'd have thought they'd have known if it was. Haven't got an example from a match, but it's this tune:


I believe Tom Clare who used to write United history pieces online and who posted on here in the past wrote a piece saying it wasn't true that it was offensive. Ron Atkinson would call us that when he managed us as well.

Now I do remember a lot of people not liking it for completely different reasons before first encountering what you're talking about. It was because they thought it was disrespectful to reduce the word United to just one letter, and that just saying you support United was enough. There was kind of bravado and arrogance about it, didn't even need the Manchester part abbreviated or not. Just say you support United and people would know who you meant. It had largely gone out of fashion by then anyway and was something that fans of other teams were mostly still using, but not with any malice that I could detect. There was a bit of an anti out-of-town supporter/anti-glory hunter element to it as well amongst top reds as United fans not from Manchester were more likely to still be saying it.

The whole thing didn't make sense to me either. I've read that referring to our club by that name did appear in such songs post-Munich and I do believe that. But that wasn't the offensive part and it doesn't logically follow that it would become a bad thing to say or write in other contexts. It would be like saying if a team made a despicaple chant using the word Fergie then we can never call him that.

This isn't me giving a definitive take on it, as like I said I wasn't around then. It's just as I see it.
 
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Chipper said:
I know what you were trying to say there. The site auto corrected it to Man Utd as it doesn't like it either.

Not sure I buy it myself. I'm not old enough to remember those times, nowhere near but the first I ever heard of it must have been in the mid 2000s. It was online somewhere and I'd been going to games since the mid/late 80s. Born and bred in Manchester. There was a thread on it on Red Issue (if you know, you know) and it was news to everyone on there too.

I remember when I was young we even sang a chant with that way of the saying the team in it. The "clapping chant" that lots of teams did, shouting the team name out at the end. Doubt the Stretford End would have been doing that if it was offensive to our own club, why would we? Especially at a time where our supporter base would have proportionally been more Mancunian so you'd have thought they'd have known if it was. Haven't got an example from a match, but it's this tune:


I believe Tom Clare who used to write United history pieces online and who posted on here in the past wrote a piece saying it wasn't true that it was offensive. Ron Atkinson would call us that when he managed us as well.

Now I do remember a lot of people not liking it for completely different reasons before first encountering what you're talking about. It was because they thought it was disrespectful to reduce the word United to just one letter, and that just saying you support United was enough. There was kind of bravado and arrogance about it, didn't even need the Manchester part abbreviated or not. Just say you support United and people would know who you meant. It had largely gone out of fashion by then anyway and was something that fans of other teams were mostly still using, but not with any malice that I could detect. There was a bit of an anti out-of-town supporter/anti-glory hunter element to it as well amongst top reds as United fans not from Manchester were more likely to still be saying it.

The whole thing didn't make sense to me either. I've read that referring to our club by that name did appear in such songs post-Munich and I do believe that. But that wasn't the offensive part and it doesn't logically follow that it would become a bad thing to say or write in other contexts. It would be like saying if a team made a despicaple chant using the word Fergie then we can never call him that.

This isn't me giving a definitive take on it, as like I said I wasn't around then. It's just as I see it.
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At least someone knew what I was on about.. that auto correction spun me out... I've not taken that term with any offence , its just something I realy don't say never have even before the supposed connotations about it.
I used to correct people it's not U it's utd I don't anymore otherwise I'd go crackers...
 
In the past rival fans sang about Duncan Edwards & the Munich disaster using Manure and Man Utd.
 
Terry Chango said:
In the past rival fans sang about Duncan Edwards & the Munich disaster using Manure and Man Utd.
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I'm not sure about the 'manure' thing but the press used the term 'Man Utd' and 'Man Utd(nited)' in the 1930's and probably before that.

PS: Some system thing has stopped me typing Manyoo which seems ridiculous.
 
thisisnottaken1 said:
Fair enough. But why Stoke?
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Although not as close as Bolton, Stoke is also not far from Old Trafford

The smaller local teams see us as a big scalp and their fans moan about people from their town supporting us rather than the local team
 
Hughie77 said:
Yep I've listened to the usual crap as well over the years about oh it's OT they get everything there etc etc it's even come from opposition managers pundits as well.

I don't like the term Man Utd either if correct comes from the Busby babes after Munich .. there was a bit about it on here I think could have been a different forum.. its derogatory towards the players who passed away? I never use it never have.. its Utd for me.. you don't here Leeds U Sheffield U etc etc it's only Man Utd ..

Go Abroad on hols take Utd towel or something feck me the abuse you can get off opposition fans , some of them not even same division.

Systematically hated because we've been successful over the years.. build a legacy other clubs will never get no matter how much money they get given.. Man Utd term won't change it?
Click to expand...
Chipper said:
I know what you were trying to say there. The site auto corrected it to Man Utd as it doesn't like it either.

Not sure I buy it myself. I'm not old enough to remember those times, nowhere near but the first I ever heard of it must have been in the mid 2000s. It was online somewhere and I'd been going to games since the mid/late 80s. Born and bred in Manchester. There was a thread on it on Red Issue (if you know, you know) and it was news to everyone on there too.

I remember when I was young we even sang a chant with that way of the saying the team in it. The "clapping chant" that lots of teams did, shouting the team name out at the end. Doubt the Stretford End would have been doing that if it was offensive to our own club, why would we? Especially at a time where our supporter base would have proportionally been more Mancunian so you'd have thought they'd have known if it was. Haven't got an example from a match, but it's this tune:


I believe Tom Clare who used to write United history pieces online and who posted on here in the past wrote a piece saying it wasn't true that it was offensive. Ron Atkinson would call us that when he managed us as well.

Now I do remember a lot of people not liking it for completely different reasons before first encountering what you're talking about. It was because they thought it was disrespectful to reduce the word United to just one letter, and that just saying you support United was enough. There was kind of bravado and arrogance about it, didn't even need the Manchester part abbreviated or not. Just say you support United and people would know who you meant. It had largely gone out of fashion by then anyway and was something that fans of other teams were mostly still using, but not with any malice that I could detect. There was a bit of an anti out-of-town supporter/anti-glory hunter element to it as well amongst top reds as United fans not from Manchester were more likely to still be saying it.

The whole thing didn't make sense to me either. I've read that referring to our club by that name did appear in such songs post-Munich and I do believe that. But that wasn't the offensive part and it doesn't logically follow that it would become a bad thing to say or write in other contexts. It would be like saying if a team made a despicaple chant using the word Fergie then we can never call him that.

This isn't me giving a definitive take on it, as like I said I wasn't around then. It's just as I see it.
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The whole don't say 'Manyoo' thing is a load of internet nonsense, has been debunked on here before - didn't realise it was on autocorrect
 
Fortitude said:
So then, has all the hatred for us come about because of the Fergie era?
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Goes back way further and it's simply because we are the biggest club in the country

Real Madrid/Bayern get the same hate in their countries

The Fergie dominance era just revitalised that hate for a whole new generation!
 
Rood said:
Goes back way further and it's simply because we are the biggest club in the country

Real Madrid/Bayern get the same hate in their countries

The Fergie dominance era just revitalised that hate for a whole new generation!
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Yup. And even though we’ve been shite for the last eleven years, people still love to hate us.
 
I think Man City are doing a fair job of moving the hate from other fans elsewhere. Certainly still exists (and is mainly from our domination during the Sir Alex years) but is subsiding somewhat with our neighbours dominating even more than we did.
 
Chipper said:
I know what you were trying to say there. The site auto corrected it to Man Utd as it doesn't like it either.

Not sure I buy it myself. I'm not old enough to remember those times, nowhere near but the first I ever heard of it must have been in the mid 2000s. It was online somewhere and I'd been going to games since the mid/late 80s. Born and bred in Manchester. There was a thread on it on Red Issue (if you know, you know) and it was news to everyone on there too.

I remember when I was young we even sang a chant with that way of the saying the team in it. The "clapping chant" that lots of teams did, shouting the team name out at the end. Doubt the Stretford End would have been doing that if it was offensive to our own club, why would we? Especially at a time where our supporter base would have proportionally been more Mancunian so you'd have thought they'd have known if it was. Haven't got an example from a match, but it's this tune:


I believe Tom Clare who used to write United history pieces online and who posted on here in the past wrote a piece saying it wasn't true that it was offensive. Ron Atkinson would call us that when he managed us as well.

Now I do remember a lot of people not liking it for completely different reasons before first encountering what you're talking about. It was because they thought it was disrespectful to reduce the word United to just one letter, and that just saying you support United was enough. There was kind of bravado and arrogance about it, didn't even need the Manchester part abbreviated or not. Just say you support United and people would know who you meant. It had largely gone out of fashion by then anyway and was something that fans of other teams were mostly still using, but not with any malice that I could detect. There was a bit of an anti out-of-town supporter/anti-glory hunter element to it as well amongst top reds as United fans not from Manchester were more likely to still be saying it.

The whole thing didn't make sense to me either. I've read that referring to our club by that name did appear in such songs post-Munich and I do believe that. But that wasn't the offensive part and it doesn't logically follow that it would become a bad thing to say or write in other contexts. It would be like saying if a team made a despicaple chant using the word Fergie then we can never call him that.

This isn't me giving a definitive take on it, as like I said I wasn't around then. It's just as I see it.
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We all used to say “Man Utd (U)” as kids growing up in the 90s. If it was offensive, it certainly wasn’t a mainstream slur. That’s just how we referred to United. I wouldn’t say it these days as it feels a bit plastic/childish now. Gloryhunters was the more popular jibe :)
 
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