Has winning two trophies in two years caused more problems for United than it has solved?

fastwalker

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Football is about winning and the best kind of win is when a shiny pot is waiting to be lifted at the end of the game.

However, I am really wondering whether winning the Carabao and the FA cups in successive seasons, rather than representing a taste of things to come, may actually be shining objects that have distracted the fan base from deeper problems and uncomfortable truths.

Much as I have have tried to move on from the game on Sunday, one thing that struck me and has stuck in my head is how one Dutch manager, playing away from home, with a pre-season behind him and no new signings on the pitch, totally schooled the other with two years of PL football under his belt and new signings on show. United had every reason to bounce back with avengeance against Liverpool, we had lost against Brighton, we were playing at home and were up against our great rivals. ETH produces a one-off masterclass against City at Wembley to win the FA cup and then has his pants pulled down at home by Liverpool's third choice managerial pick.

Yes it is early days and things could turn round quickly for us, but the patterns and utter cluelessness are starting to look remarkably similar to last season. But, then again we have won two trophies in two years, so it must be all right mustn't it?
 
has this not been done to death in the should we or shouldn’t we sack ETH threads
 
No. We were crap before we won the trophies, largely crap whilst winning them and we will most likely be crap for a while longer once the bloke who led us to the trophies goes. They were fun moments and should be enjoyed as such, not resented.
 
It's becoming a bit of a deflection but I'd also argue that the top 4 finishes under Ole and Jose were just as bad at creating a false perception of a progress that really wasn't there. It's been a cycle ever since Sir Alex left of "we're back, we're on the way up" followed by a catastrophic failure and another rebuild. I think EtH will follow this cycle.

Ultimately you want to see a progressive style of football, a consistency of finishing in the top 4, AND winning trophies, however minor, which is what Klopp and to a lesser extent Arteta did.
 
No.

Many football teams are actually not very good, and the alternative for us was to be not very good and not win anything.

We've not badly to get through the last decade of crisis after crisis with five pieces of silverware, even if they aren't the top prizes.

Spurs, for example, have basically been as good as they've ever been in that time and won feck all.
 
Irwin99 said:
It's becoming a bit of a deflection but I'd also argue that the top 4 finishes under Ole and Jose were just as bad at creating a false perception of a progress that really wasn't there. It's been a cycle ever since Sir Alex left of "we're back, we're on the way up" followed by a catastrophic failure and another rebuild. I think EtH will follow this cycle.

Ultimately you want to see a progressive style of football, a consistency of finishing in the top 4, AND winning trophies, however minor, which is what Klopp and to a lesser extent Arteta did.
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Ole was the most ruthless player imaginable (not the most conducive to overall team play) yet the opposite as a manger. His Utd played their best and most consistent football when there were no fans in the stadium. Mourinho’s team lost their way after Zlatan’s injury.
United have had talented players but the winning mindset has been missing ever since Fergie left and

Two cups ETH deserves credit for getting the team over the line to those successes but he shows no self awareness to his own and his team’s failings.
 
What an odd thread. Winning trophies is the most relevant goal in football. In these days of social media even saf probably wouldn’t have got the time he needed. We have to be realistic, city arsenal and Liverpool are some years in front in developing a team. For the first time in years we have a professional set up, just give eth some time. The pl title isn’t realistic, but if we win the el this year and that’s not unreasonable it will be another step in the right direction. And three titles in three years - not that bad for me
 
The problem isn't winning trophies. The problem is that we are nowhere near winning the PL trophy. As soon as the owners realize that under ETH we will not challenge for the PL trophy, the better.
 
No. The FA Cup allowed United to be more aggressive in the transfer market by qualifying for Europe. The transfer window was underwhelming due to the focus on the defence while we are woefully short in the middle of the park. The job has only half been done and we will have to suffer Casemiro for another season at least.
 
Why do people get so hung up on this. It’s two seasons, it’s been 11 since we’ve been good? Ineos didn’t keep ETH because he won the Carabao and then FA cup alone they obviously had other reasons as well. You can say, in fairness, we’ve been decent in knock out comps though.

They kept him most likely because they feel we’re a good 2-3 seasons away and want to focus on the squad rejuvenation and, I’d bet right now, don’t particularly care who is the manager because they feel there’s a lot more important stuff to sort out.
 
How much have you got to hate the manager to create this thread!
 
Wayhay another thread of negativity to go with 99% of the rest of this once great forum
 
TrustInJanuzaj said:
How much have you got to hate the manager to create this thread!
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I've wanted managers/players out and have voiced my opinion but the obsessive weird behaviour of many on this forum and some quarters in the media is an outstanding feat
 
Steve Bruce said:
I've wanted managers/players out and have voiced my opinion but the obsessive weird behaviour of many on this forum and some quarters in the media is an outstanding feat
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Isn’t it enough to just do what everyone else does? Go into the ten hag thread. Give you opinion that you think he shouldn’t have stayed on and move on with your life. The OP should be embarrassed that he’s created this one to be honest.
 
No.

That FA cup win against the divs was fecking incredible. I wouldn't swap that for Arsenal's season.
 
We should be happy we won two trophies. The cup win last season was especially special.

But should have also sacked ETH.

The two things are mutually exclusive.

Plenty of managers have been sacked after winning trophies. INEOS bottled it. They now need to fix their mistake, and quickly.
 
TrustInJanuzaj said:
Isn’t it enough to just do what everyone else does? Go into the ten hag thread. Give you opinion that you think he shouldn’t have stayed on and move on with your life. The OP should be embarrassed that he’s created this one to be honest.
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Plus a bit if not into discussion = will not reply back
 
I do think we over celebrate some things. Trophies not so much (I wasn't arsed about the Carabao Cup, but the FA cup was definitely worthwhile) but top 4 finishes seem to be made into too much of an achievement.

I think it's the other way around - finishing top 4 is actually easy. You only just about need to win half your games in the league in the top 4. You can be horrible for long stretches of the season and still be in touch with top 4. It's not hard. Mourinho sabotaged half a season and we still were in with a fighting chance of top 4 a few years ago.

It actually takes gross incompetence to not finish top 4 especially with the amount of money we spend year on year.
 
fastwalker said:
Football is about winning and the best kind of win is when a shiny pot is waiting to be lifted at the end of the game.

However, I am really wondering whether winning the Carabao and the FA cups in successive seasons, rather than representing a taste of things to come, may actually be shining objects that have distracted the fan base from deeper problems and uncomfortable truths.

Much as I have have tried to move on from the game on Sunday, one thing that struck me and has stuck in my head is how one Dutch manager, playing away from home, with a pre-season behind him and no new signings on the pitch, totally schooled the other with two years of PL football under his belt and new signings on show. United had every reason to bounce back with avengeance against Liverpool, we had lost against Brighton, we were playing at home and were up against our great rivals. ETH produces a one-off masterclass against City at Wembley to win the FA cup and then has his pants pulled down at home by Liverpool's third choice managerial pick.

Yes it is early days and things could turn round quickly for us, but the patterns and utter cluelessness are starting to look remarkably similar to last season. But, then again we have won two trophies in two years, so it must be all right mustn't it?
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The reality is the manager position doesn't matter all that much. Obviously it makes a difference and I don't think ETH has shown to be a good manager, but the biggest difference between us and Liverpool is the caliber of players.

Liverpool probably has 4 of the best 5 players on the pitch (Salah, TAA, VVD, Alisson with only Bruno near their level on our side) and stronger general starting players (Szoboszlai, Diaz, Konate vs say Casemiro, Garnacho, and De Ligt). That means a lot more than whatever tactics Slot is using.

And I don't think the trophies change anything all that much. The FA Cup win probably bought ETH more time, but he'll still be out in November/December if we're mid-table at that point.
 
We needed a fair chunk of luck to win the FA Cup. Although we put out a decent performance in final to be fair.

I’m all for seeing how this year pans out with ETH but the red flag for me is that he seems to think the team is improving because of those trophy wins. Cup games rarely tell the full story. That for me is a man clinging on to hope because he is bereft of ideas and therefore can’t use any other yardstick to measure progress.
 
Nope, because even if we'd lost the FA cup final, Ineos would have kept ETH.
 
If you think winning the League Cup and FA Cup was bad, you should have been with us when that clueless Scot won the FA Cup and the Cup Winners Cup, and then the Larafue and Champions League to make matters even worse. He lasted 26 years just on the back of it.
 
I personally think we overrate the FA cup & the Carabao Cup.

I find them less important to a season than a CL or a PL (maybe even an Europa League due to CL qualification) - for example our Hattrick of 99', the domestic cup was probably our least important of the bunch.

I'm not saying it's not worth trying for - but we should be trying harder for the PL and the CL by playing our best players & our most inform players in them whilst playing our more rotational players in the domestic cups.

For example, Bruno i would play in the PL & play Mount in the FA Cup. Garnacho as our RW in the PL until Amad finds some continued form both in the Carabao & FA Cups.
 
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lex talionis said:
The problem isn't winning trophies. The problem is that we are nowhere near winning the PL trophy. As soon as the owners realize that under ETH we will not challenge for the PL trophy, the better.
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We're never going to be properly challenging for it anyway until Guardiola and the cheats get binned. Any team needs to play an almost perfect season to beat those pricks to the trophy.

But I get what you mean as we're not even in the conversation at present.
 
Skills said:
It actually takes gross incompetence to not finish top 4 especially with the amount of money we spend year on year.
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Gross incompetence is exactly what we've had for the last decade, thanks to our useless owners and their yes-men that they've entrusted to run the club.
 
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