This is a bit of an 80s-90s thinking IMO. In 2025 you don't compete on efficiency based on hours worked.
Has the US awakened the sleeping giant?
- Thread starter Rams
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That's probably an overly optimistic take. You speak for the whole continent when there is still schisms within many a countries about the role of EU. Most europeans still reluctant to accept a pan-European identity over national one and it remains to be seen if that will change going forward when the recent resurgence of right wing, which mostly is anti-EU, points otherwise. I also think socially things are going to get even worse in Europe with rising migrant populations, which is further going fracture any growth story. It remains to be seen if Europe can drive innovations that can compete at global scale without support from big MNCs from US.
Ukraine is a money pit. Better off saving it for your own defense, domestic programs, and working out deals with other geopolitical rivals for some mutual benefit. Lots of opportunity for any modernized European country if they can learn from America’s feckery of the past 40 years.
also love to see the defeatism and naiveté coming from non-Europeans who primarily base their opinion on Europe / life in Europe / Europeans from non-European media. Never ceases to amaze me how much Europe lives rent free in the heads of many, even if it's a story as old as history itself.
in other news, Europe defence stocks are having a time of their life
https://www.ft.com/content/bbe9ec5a-9701-4d42-904a-52f021ccb0a2
the most likely scenario for the next months now looks like a big increase in defence spending across Europe + likely getting rid of the German break + increased investment in defence from the EU financing
in other news, Europe defence stocks are having a time of their life
https://www.ft.com/content/bbe9ec5a-9701-4d42-904a-52f021ccb0a2
the most likely scenario for the next months now looks like a big increase in defence spending across Europe + likely getting rid of the German break + increased investment in defence from the EU financing
We cannot invest in every sector though, so we have to invest in the sectors that drive the economy and we have to find the money to do it from the sectors that don't.
It's a shame that we've endured 10-15 years of grifters trying to dismantle any notion of a pan-European identity. Maybe this will revive it?
aye. and they’ll eventually be a revolution in china in any case. there’s nothing special about europe, we’ve just been doing it longer than other countries and are ahead.
Not just that... In recent weeks top politicians all over the continent have used endless superlatives when talking about how the US and EU share common values. But what are these common values, apart from (mostly) free global trade? Culturally and politically the US is very far from EU.
The Americans will harp on about their freedom of speech and democracy, but the US don't even make the top 50 in freedom of the press. And their news channels are a joke. They are entertainment first and don't even attempt to be somewhat objective. And let's not even get started on their insane two-party system, gerrymandering, lobbying, super delegates and whatnot.
Yes you find libertarians and conservatives in Europe too, but they don't represent the mainstream. And their whole operation is based around anti-immigrant sentiments. Without that foundation, they only represent small clusters of weirdos that few take seriously.
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We can even add in extras like nails or ball bearings for a small price
Or meybe we should not accept that we can't keep supporting half the continent on some form of inequality billionaire scheme
Is always the welfare that we have to cut right?
Of course you had to throw an unrelated consequence. This is full BS. EU main powerhouses spends between 25-30% on Wellfare. You raise your defense a 2-3% for a total of 4-5% (Russia is at 5-6% full on war) or what is the same 400-600 billions. Billionaires alone in the EU has 2.2 trillions. Tax them 10% you got it. Tax evasion? Tax more coporations. Etc...
But yeah, doesn't surprise me at all with your ideology. feck the poor, hail the rich
At the risk of jinxing it, I have some propaganda to share. Today France is launching a new military satellite in space with the new Ariane 6.
Things can change quickly - Europe just needs to stop feeling sorry for itself and focus on moving forwards. It is perfectly placed as a melting pot of labour force/money and knowledge, we just need some common sense and to stop taking under the table money for stuff like power and manufacturing.
If you think corrupion is Europe's biggest problem, then I don't know what to say. Europe has had a welfare mindset for so long that it's public finances are in shambles, with barely any growth to show for it. Productivity, most acutely seen in the UK, is far lower than the US. It punches way below its weight in science and innovation. It's getting outcompeted on so many different fronts. I think a fundamental shift is needed and the average European voter is not ready to make those trade offs
Ugh, what a disgusting and dishonest thing to say.
Probably the same people who thought it was good idea to open a tank museum beside Monkey World zoo.
Or we could tax billionaires and corporations. That would solve the problem without massive social unrest.
Yup. They would not even need to raise the taxes on them, just extract what they are actually due. Untold billions missing from the coffers because of unclosed loopholes and taxhaven states like Ireland actively assisting companies and individuals to avoid paying their fair share.
But yeah sure, let's blame the "welfare state". Gotta kick those who are already at the bottom of the food chain instead.
As for the military industrial complex, yesterday saw the publishing of another good presentation by Perun on that topic:
The baseline is something I had thought as well: Europe absolutely can become a massive power independently from the USA, but will they really get off their arses, make the changes this would require and show the unity necessary? That is very doubtful.
The baseline is something I had thought as well: Europe absolutely can become a massive power independently from the USA, but will they really get off their arses, make the changes this would require and show the unity necessary? That is very doubtful.
I can't believe that it took Europe so long to finally acknowledge that the US isn't exactly a reliable partner. Just ask the Iraqis, the Afghans, the South Vietnamese, the Kurds and the Hungarians.
UK tried taxing corporations. The jury is still out, but the short term effects have been pretty terrible
I do want to tax billionaires more but most of them already are domiciled in tax havens like Monaco, Cayman Islands etc. but I do want to believe that's an option. Inequality in the world has gotten absurd
Because people believe all the misinformation and political biased comments against Europe and ignore the facts, as is being proved in this thread.
Yes, I kind of get if it’s Americans or Indians getting misinformed or falling for propaganda - I might have visited those places a few times but don’t know shit how the real life looks there, so I could be misinformed myself. And then you have Europeans who are misinformed about stuff happening on their own turf - how thick one has to be
The whole problem with Europe is there's no leader that every country within Europe is happy to accept as leader. Macros tries to be but annoys the heck out of too many, Germany is a mess and we're stuck with bloody Sir Suck up to Anyone. We're a continent of stubborn people with different cultures. Need to address that first (putting aside we're out of the EU).
But if we did address this, and some miraculous was Europe united as a continent from a military perspective, then that's a different matter.
But if we did address this, and some miraculous was Europe united as a continent from a military perspective, then that's a different matter.
I think that people are making a bit too much out of it. The only thing that Europe needs to sort out from a military standpoint is the logistic that's the main thing that they have delegated to the US(and to some extent Ukraine with the Antonovs) and it was always puzzling. If they fix that a big problem disappears because a number of the biggest arm manufacturers are european.
Thing I notice across all European countries is that everyone cries for this European leader, but when it comes to voting they still vote the old, national interest driven parties. I think we need to give more power to the EU itself and have someone less status quo oriented than quite awful von der Leyen. Easier said than done
I agree
Just as a counterfactual to those being perhaps understandably pessimistic about European cohesion, yes we have a wide berth of political parties taking stage across the EU, but we will also fluctuate between left wing and right governments here. The important thing to state would be both Georgia Miloni, Germanys new chancellor and other more right wing governments have all signalled extremely strong close knit security messaging with the rest of Europe, it doesn’t feel like a political schism at the heart of Europe, the game is plain to see at this point.
The problem is what to do about Hungary really, and probably make a new alliance excluding the Russian stuges.
The problem is what to do about Hungary really, and probably make a new alliance excluding the Russian stuges.
For low quality, high volume, cheap shit Europe can't compete with Asia.
What it's well equipped to produce is low-mid volume, high quality, highly reliable products. I.e. Aerospace, Nuclear components.
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Europe increasing its defence spending, subsidised by welfare cuts is the inevitable consequence of the election of a far right isolationist US president. This was obvious geopolitics to anyone paying attention.
Europe, if the Brussels' decree, doing that will lead to the death of the EU. More inevitable in all possible should they/then scenarios.
Nations like Ireland simply couldn't manage it. The welfare in Ireland is the only thing that stops a large number of people genuinely revolting in my opinion and I've held that opinion for years. It's a unique (or seems to me semi-unique) social contract where the GDP is very high (albeit tax games) and 500 thousand or so are in receipt of welfare payments.
If you tried to walk back year on year increases to those payment in line with inflation and impose an austerity and said "Ukraine" (to an island nation that has only ever know the UK as an enemy over a thousand years) you'd be laughed at at first and basically thrown out of government second. I suspect similar for other nations. Not all are hit equally by the Ukraine situation. Those to the east, yes, I can understand it, and the Baltics, etc., but those in the "center", the "south", and the "West" just aren't hit anywhere near as hard by this. They do not believe for a second that Russia is going to come through Ukraine and invade Poland. They may sometimes admit it and sometimes pretend otherwise, but they do not believe it. Those who live closer to Russia have different anxieties which is fair enough.
I'm just saying, it will not work. The EU cannot afford to impose war austerity. It can come up with an architecture which increases defense spending without this and that's the only viable solution.
Just on the Irish (and British) front. The campaign(s) were run around the need to spend more due to a legacy of austerity coming close to tearing the welfare society to shreds. In healthcare (two tiered in each nation despite NHS and HSE) ,housing (crisis in both) and education (massive work needed).
You might win today's popularity contest becaues of Ukrainian sympathies but you will lose the war if you move in this direction and it will be an internal upheaval. Morevoer, not everyone in these nations even agree.
The welfare number for Ireland is actually 1.4~ million (5.5 million in the country last I checked). This is what makes it a relatively unique economy. The GDP soars despite it (indeed, the welfare is the social contract itself for a large part of the society). Cuts will mean massive demonstrations and upheaval. It cannot happen as a matter of political reality when all major parties ran on something entirely different. Talking about close to half the nation dependent on these payments. It would be the biggest revolt the nation has ever seen and citing Ukraine to that base of people isn't going to make a single difference.
For context, there is a housing epidemic in Ireland. That was the primary topic of the last election. A welfare topic as well as a social mobility topic. Intersecting. So I don't see all states being equal just because some states will have to increase spending. Or you see a nominal increase in Ireland (can be done) but nothing like the numbers for other nations.
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I find the question of welfare a bit puzzling. Are there that many people on welfare in Europe that a bit of cutting would cause mayhem? Aside from the question of whether one should cut on welfare (many would understandably refuse that).
For what it's worth, the hollowing out of our societies through large-scale tax abuse was always going to create problems on the long-term. It was hardly going to be sustainable for governments not to be able to collect hundreds of billions of euros or dollars and yet maintain well-funded social safety nets and sizeable defense spending.
For what it's worth, the hollowing out of our societies through large-scale tax abuse was always going to create problems on the long-term. It was hardly going to be sustainable for governments not to be able to collect hundreds of billions of euros or dollars and yet maintain well-funded social safety nets and sizeable defense spending.
Anyway, a lot of talk about Britain, France, Germany but another top dog in the European room could be Turkey.
I would be nice if Trump inadvertently creates a path for the UK to rejoin the EU but I don't see it happening.
He's still not getting into the EU. We've already got a Hungarian dictator sabotaging and trying to leverage agreement for bribes, we don't need a Turkish one as well.
Time for a wealth tax if you ask me. feck an austerity program, would much rather watch the thing burn that go through that again. It's a political-class based infliction of harm upon those least able to suffer it. If that happens, I'd be all for the thing coming down completely and take my chances with what comes next. It would be complete evidence of the detachment of millionaires and mostly billionaires from reality.
Bring back national service and ramp up military production. It's time to start doing, not just talking.
ok some of that won't be popular.
ok some of that won't be popular.
Bar the billionaires to enter the EU till they pay what is due and size assets of their companies or ban them to sell in the EU if they move out
Obviously these are lalala land measures not because of it is impossible but because they are the ones that finance the political parties and they are the companies that politicians go after they finish their political stint to repay the favours
In the end we will need to cut the welfare system. But not because there are not options. There are many. But because the lower bracket always pays the price. There are plenty of resources to improve the welfare state, Plenty. But with a neo feudal system where coorporation and individual billionaires instead of paying the fair share, they pay less, it is not possible
But feck everybody that dares to say that the wellfare should be cut. Fall all of them. They are scum
Other than some photo ops and twitter tweets, has anything changed in Europe?