Now that it seems obvious that Europe is going to rearm, with its economic power, population size and industrial capabilities & infrastructure to produce arms, is Pandoras Box being opened?
Has the US awakened the sleeping giant?
- Thread starter Rams
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Well, Trump sent a message to Europe. Either it's received or ignored.
Feck yeah. If the Pope recovers we can all meet in Clermont to discuss what's next!
Nah, it's gonna fail to meet the moment and become a smorgasbord of nationalism, recrimination and division.
Its about time really. Europe has fallen far behind the US and China on several areas and its about time we woke up from our stupor.
I'm from Norway, and we've earned around $108 billion extra from oil/gas exports because of the Ukraine war. Meanwhile, we've only given a measly 3,4 billion in aid. I'd say its time we gave that money back and invested in European defense industries and in Ukraine.
No point in having a big slash fund if Putin gets his claws on it
I'm from Norway, and we've earned around $108 billion extra from oil/gas exports because of the Ukraine war. Meanwhile, we've only given a measly 3,4 billion in aid. I'd say its time we gave that money back and invested in European defense industries and in Ukraine.
No point in having a big slash fund if Putin gets his claws on it
It doesn't seem likely to me, I think decreasing and ageing populations are about to hit Europe harder than the US. The US is also going to be better equipped to deal with a changing economy with the Europe so far behind in AI and robotics. Chances are the increased defence spending is going to work against us but it's a risk we have to take.
For all the talk of Russia they're already shrinking quite quickly and won't change that trend. They might have to take over another country just to secure fighting age men at this rate.
For all the talk of Russia they're already shrinking quite quickly and won't change that trend. They might have to take over another country just to secure fighting age men at this rate.
That could well be the case.
Europe is made up of so many strong and modern nations.
We don't have to act as one. We just need to act effectively.
I doubt it. Ukraine is cooked and Europe isn't going to do anything about it.
It's cool and all but if we want to be honest to ourselves... in the past 2 decades or so, the only thing that unite Europe is Mr. Bean. That's about it.
No, Europe is a joke, lets be honest
Are Europe's production facilities good? Most of the western world has closed industrial and production plants over the last 30 years because of cheaper labour elsewhere. Maybe it's still decent in some countries, but definitely not in the likes of the UK and France.
I’m quite optimistic about it, yes.
I'll bring my longbowConsidering half of Europe's major countries seem to be going the way of Trump internally, I don't have a huge amount of faith.
Production capabilities would most likely need to be increased. But generally speaking, Europe should have enough arms companies to cope with the changes. We’re not starting from scratch. We have some of the best defensive companies in the world. We only need to use them.
A missile factory in Belfast just took an order for 5000 LMM, creating 200 new jobs in process.
Expect to see similar across Europe.
A lot of these factories are still operating making other things, so a few machine changes and they can quickly produce weapons once again.
Expect to see similar across Europe.
A lot of these factories are still operating making other things, so a few machine changes and they can quickly produce weapons once again.
Concerning production capabilities the important thing is Europe still has tool and automation (robot) makers to supply new factories. Loads of advanced Chinese factories putting out all of the worlds consumer goods are stocked with European machines or copies of them.
If the political will and money is there the industrial capability certainly would be there to ramp up production within a year or two.
If the political will and money is there the industrial capability certainly would be there to ramp up production within a year or two.
I think we will see a consolidation of power between the big contributors, possibly even a two tier EU with the rest virtually cut loose. A core alliance of the UK, France, Germany, Italy and Spain with others like Finland and Poland also involved.
There is plenty of capital and ingenuity left in Europe but at some point we are going to have to accept that we can't keep supporting half the continent on some form of welfare.
There is plenty of capital and ingenuity left in Europe but at some point we are going to have to accept that we can't keep supporting half the continent on some form of welfare.
There's a missile factory in Belfast? Who thought that was a good idea?
I fear there are too many individual national interests for Europe to ever become a real superpower.
It takes more than that for Europe to wake up. They're imho already too cozy with 4 days work, laid back working environment, healthcare etc.
Workers in Asia works 996 in some countries, 9 hours a day 6 days a week. Good luck competing in efficiency with them. In the 80s you have technological cutting edge, now not so much. I dont know about manufacture but i bet the cost of employee is already very high for labor intensive job.
To beef up your military the money have to come from somewhere, cuts needs to be made and i dont think any politicians have enough capital to implement those cuts
Workers in Asia works 996 in some countries, 9 hours a day 6 days a week. Good luck competing in efficiency with them. In the 80s you have technological cutting edge, now not so much. I dont know about manufacture but i bet the cost of employee is already very high for labor intensive job.
To beef up your military the money have to come from somewhere, cuts needs to be made and i dont think any politicians have enough capital to implement those cuts
with this I fully agree and deeply hope it happens. Just make it a clear choice - further integration or kindly feck off.
On this I don't agree at all - first of all not 'half the continent" is on some form of welfare and secondly many of the countries that are big beneficiaries like Romania are quite crucial in terms of security and having their markets open to European companies. It's a good business for Western Europe to be a net contributor, as long as they win the markets, it's not a charity of any sort.
Who has 4 days work?
It's deep in the loyal part of Belfast at least whereas the one that used to be in Derry was in spitting distance of the Donegal border!
This is horseshit btw. A four day workweek and healthcare isn't cosy. It should be considered the bare minimum.
European countries regularly outperform the efficiency of countries running on this 9-9-6.
Anyway, I find the notion that we are talking about spending money on defence as a positive to be weird. That's money I'd rather put into infrastructure. France already has enough nukes to destroy the planet if it wants to. Not much return on investment beyond that is there.
What?
You are making it sound like the European nations like Germany who have economy in recession, are suffering due to some reliance on US over the past decades. If anything the said reliance should have eased concerns around spending on defence, permitting bankrolling of social welfare schemes along with other incentives to invigorate industry. If Europe wants to compete with US & China again, they will have to jettison a lot of principles and regulations they have set up over the past few decades. Increased spending in some sectors is going to have trade-off with another losing out.
Or we do the reasonable thing and don‘t try to compete in a fight we can’t win anyway and become the worlds Switzerland. Meaning that we are strengthening our defensive capabilities to be able to defend ourselves and other than that, we remain neutral and do business with whoever is reliable and beneficiary to us, be that the US, China, India or someone else.
I've been catching up on all the latest news so I've been watching YouTube videos of news broadcasts and whatnot, and its crazy seeing the comment sections completely flooded with Americans and Europeans going at it and just generally raging at each other.
Americans having a go at European's and saying its time to protect themselves. Europeans fuming over the state of Donald Trump. People evoking WWII and Iraq an everything in between as sticks to beat the other with.
It feels like the type of online argument that went from hardly existing to being absolutely everywhere overnight. Pretty surreal.
Americans having a go at European's and saying its time to protect themselves. Europeans fuming over the state of Donald Trump. People evoking WWII and Iraq an everything in between as sticks to beat the other with.
It feels like the type of online argument that went from hardly existing to being absolutely everywhere overnight. Pretty surreal.
Agree. I would say that regardless of Trump shitting the bed, Europeans were taking a big risk anyway in setting themselves up to be so reliant on US rather than explore a relationship with China and even Russia, which may not be to US' liking.
That's the social contract.
At some point people are going to have to get real and stop parroting Tory talking points as if they were novel because Ukraine. feck off with that shit in general.
Austerity again. Honestly, anyone on that train can feck the feck off.
It’s a cliche, but we need to understand that this situation, as dire as it looks, is also an opportunity for Europe and if we play our cards right, we can come out of this mess better than before. The only sector where Europe is really lacking is digital technologies. That’s an important one, obviously and we need to invest a lot to catch up. But other than that, we’re mostly fine. We still have enormous wealth, great education, great and modern industries, enormous defensive capabilities and have now been presented with a common enemy to unite us.
The negativity about Europe largely stems from the last few decades, that saw the continent lack in urgency. We were apathetic and waited for others to guide us. This time over. Now it’s time to become strong again. And many people seem to have forgotten what enormous potential this continent still has.
Two angles to welfare. One is country level, economies like Romania provide markets but with the global lurch to the right you risk getting more Hungarys too.
Then welfare as in social care which is what i originally meant, Europe accounts for about half of global spend. It's a millstone around our neck and it's only going one way. Just bringing our spend in line with the US would free up somewhere along the lines of half a trillion dollars each year.
Benefit Street again. Not these cnuts again.
Yep. We need to invest. A lot. In basically every sector there is. It will be a huge challenge. It also can be done.
The idea that we need to become more like the US to get out of all this is however, absolutely wrong. The social contract doesn’t have to be broken and it should never be broken. Welfare can still exist in the new world order.
All for novel ways of meeting the basic requirements of actual Defense and maintaining (improving actually, because it's at an all time low) the social contract.
Any serious student of politics, history, and economy, knows that the social contract is more important than external enemies. One leads to internal revolutions if it's broken You ought to do both. But internal stability is the first task. Cuts to welfare are the worst idea, after cuts to international aid.
It comes from a class which doesn't benefit if welfare is cut either. I'll never understand this gaslighting.
Europeans are too lazy drinking their espressos and eating omelettes to ever achieve anything, what has Europe ever done for the world?
Just like United’s fortune, Europe is done.
You underestimate the extent to which this "giant"'s limbs are useless due to a regulatory diabetes that has given it's limbs gangrene. If it goes to lift its arms it will realize that it's basically non responsive