Has political correctness actually gone mad?

Would it be so terrible to just go with a relatively small level of inequality?
Accept that those who've benefitted from a better level of education and are ... ambitious or whatever are going to have a better life and whatnot.

This will always be the case, it is impossible for this or any other system to not result in inequality for someone. We have to look at privilege vs reward for effort. Whilst being born to an affluent family resulting in the ability to obtain a good education is a privilege for the child, being able to send your child to a good university is reward for the effort/success of his parents.

If you did a 180 which would essentially be socialism it would result in the parents in that situation being denied that reward for their effort. This again is not fair. There is no middle ground that has ever worked perfectly for everyone, so you are absolutely right there will always be inequality.

I think capitalism is the best system for people looking to escape poverty or to progress past their current situation and also the system which is most fair but purely mathematically there will always be some form of hierarchy.
 
Protestors at some US universities have a grand total feck all to do with intersectionality.

How on earth not?

Definitions are constantly evolving and these campuses are where the majority of degrees which will lead to education on Liberal matters are obtained.
 
I think capitalism is the best system for people looking to escape poverty or to progress past their current situation and also the system which is most fair but purely mathematically there will always be some form of hierarchy.
It is the best system so far in that regard, but when looking at the historical competition, this doesn't mean much. The last ~150 years of capitalism tell a vastly different story about opportunities for the poor in general. It only looks so from the perspective of the global minority that's equipped with at least modest chances for upward mobility, i.e. a privileged group.
 
Because you say so? This is not at all an isolated incident
How on earth not?

Definitions are constantly evolving and these campuses are where the majority of degrees which will lead to education on Liberal matters are obtained.
Taking just the link the posted earlier which was about a relatively harsh protest it's hard to see where the connection is. I don't see what intersectionality has to do with protestors calling a professor a race traitor, for example. It's the same mistake people make when talking about political correctness going mad and using such examples as evidence. If you're applying these concepts to these protests, they'd fail the test.

It's true that both are better, but 50 years ago society was dominated by old white men, so it could not really get much worse. Also i am talking about equality in the strictest sense, not necessarily justice. Take affirmative action for example, it's good for diversity for sure, but it's not really equal since it means people compete on uneven terms. Asian-Americans for example need to score a lot higher on their tests to compete on the same terms as other groups.
The strictest sense isn't equality, it's a nightmare scenario where eugenics and authoritarianism would rule the land.

Debate is all well and good, but we both know it often gets a lot nastier than that and i've seen activists throw under activists under the bus plenty of times.
Metaphorically thrown under the bus. We're talking about people saying mean things to each other, not actual fecking warfare. See, this is the real problem with the far left, they need a violent extremists contingent to give people some perspective.

When it comes the the respect campaign it was initially about fighting racism and discrimination in football, a pretty clear goal imo. Now on the other hand they want to include several other issues as well and i think it might weaken the original cause.
It was about respecting others from a different race, gender, religion and disabilities from the very beginning. It later included improving disabled access to football games. Maybe it's failed in your eyes, but I thought it was a decent campaign and it's latest addition is paying dividends for disabled fans.

https://web.archive.org/web/2013032...sponsibility/respect/news/newsid=1807947.html

Much of the basis of intersectionalism is based on subjective interpretations of oppression, which quickly becomes difficult when people in the same categories have different interpretations of similar events. Not only does it make it difficult to create a common actionable cause based on such subjective testimony. This can be said for any one form of oppression, but it goes from difficult to monumentally difficult with intersectionality when you have all these overlapping categories.
Why should everyone from the same background have the same goals anyway? That's a surefire way to exclude people who don't think as you do and the reason why even major political parties are broad churches rather than single minded groups.

Second, intersectionality creates a unified idea of anti-oppression politics that requires a lot out of its adherents, often more than can be expected from imperfect humans.
No it doesn't. One person from a group being a stickler doesn't =/= everyone from the group being sticklers. Are we going to say that conservatism is puritanical because Peter Hitchens is a puritan?

If you are expected to take everyone into consideration you become paralyzed in semantics and theory and once you start pulling in one direction it can lead to contradictory recommendations and if it does not end up in internal conflict, it often ends up in conflict with other areas.
That's how all groups work. Even in places where internal conflict got you shot in the head, say the front lines of WW1 and WW2 people would still protest.

Take the "body positivity movement", a part of intersectionality i'm sure you'd agree. Promoting body positivity is fine, but it quickly ends up in conflict with standard medical advice, because despite people not deserving to get bullied for their body, we all well know that obesity is an ever growing problem in the western world. Some of these body positivists also has advocated for heavy people getting the same rights as disabled people, which the latter group (also someone under the big umbrealla) is not too happy about.
What the feck are you talking about. That's it's own thing. You know, I'm starting to think you're under the impression that thing you don't like = word you don't like.
 
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I think capitalism is the best system for people looking to escape poverty or to progress past their current situation and also the system which is most fair but purely mathematically there will always be some form of hierarchy.
Poverty has been on decline in every political/economic/cultural system since practically forever. And it's not the politicians, economy or culture that has improved lives, it's the handful of people who invented something useful things like the wheel, penicillin or a vaccine. If you were born in Mongolia in the year 1200, you'd think raiding was the best way to bring people out poverty. If you were born in 19th century Britain, you'd think it was imperialism.
 
Taking just the link the posted earlier which was about a relatively harsh protest it's hard to see where the connection is. I don't see what intersectionality has to do with protestors calling a professor a race traitor, for example. It's the same mistake people make when talking about political correctness going mad and using such examples as evidence. If you're applying these concepts to these protests, they'd fail the test..
What is it then? Where did these students pick up these kinds of ideas? I'm sure there is plenty of intersectional theory/work that is pretty and benignant, but i've also seen quite a bit of it with similar rhetoric these students are using

Metaphorically thrown under the bus. We're talking about people saying mean things to each other, not actual fecking warfare. See, this is the real problem with the far left, they need a violent extremists contingent to give people some perspective.
Finally something we can agree on. I would consider myself a leftist but i feel the left currently is in some sort of identity crisis and it's imo partly the reason we have a dangerous buffoon in the white house and the reason we have seen a surge in right wing politics across Europe. I'm not saying intersectionality is the root of this identity crisis, but it's a symptom of it.

Why should everyone from the same background have the same goals anyway? That's a surefire way to exclude people who don't think as you do and the reason why even major political parties are broad churches rather than single minded groups.

Parties needs to be that way, if they only had one cause on their agenda, they would not be very effective at governing i'd imagine. Non-political ideal organizations though: Amnesty, Greenpeace, Red Cross, MSF, WWF, etc mostly concern themselves with a few key causes. I'm sure most people volunteering for Amensty for example could get behind the idea of strengthening animal rights, but it's still not the focus of their organization.

What the feck are you talking about. That's it's own thing. You know, I'm starting to think you're under the impression that thing you don't like = word you don't like.
https://everydayfeminism.com/2017/09/no-body-positivity-no-feminism/

This is literally the first thing that came up when i googled it. Since intersectionality aims at being as broad as possible this would fit right in as a subcategory of identity. This whole thing is also closely related to identity politics who tries to create an inverse social pyramid based on what people are, rather then who they are. Like uranium it's pretty harmless and actually quite useful when used as a tool but it very quickly gets turned into a weapon

Another example here:
https://www.thenation.com/article/feminisms-toxic-twitter-wars/

I'm sorry, but to me it seems intersectionality creates more conflict than it solves
 
Taking just the link the posted earlier which was about a relatively harsh protest it's hard to see where the connection is. I don't see what intersectionality has to do with protestors calling a professor a race traitor, for example. It's the same mistake people make when talking about political correctness going mad and using such examples as evidence. If you're applying these concepts to these protests, they'd fail the test.

I agree it is a harsh example but I feel that is fairly representative of what we see on many college campuses from young liberals. The shouting down of differing opinions, character assassination and competitive victimhood. I'd argue that one of the causes of the latter 2 is the way all forums of inequality are grouped together as they seem to rank them. It is troubling seeing these kids not being able to deal with that logically as they will be the ones charged with the future of such matters.

Maybe you disagree that it is loosely representative?
 
What is it then? Where did these students pick up these kinds of ideas? I'm sure there is plenty of intersectional theory/work that is pretty and benignant, but i've also seen quite a bit of it with similar rhetoric these students are using
Similar =/= the same.

Finally something we can agree on. I would consider myself a leftist but i feel the left currently is in some sort of identity crisis
No it isn't. The political spectrum has always been diverse, all that's happened is that voices that weren't heard in the past are heard now. When a left wing party wins the right appears to be in crisis, when a right wing party wins the left appears to be in crisis. That's just a normal consequence of winning and losing elections.

and it's imo partly the reason we have a dangerous buffoon in the white house and the reason we have seen a surge in right wing politics across Europe.
There's zero statistical data to support this. It's a myth.

I'm not saying intersectionality is the root of this identity crisis, but it's a symptom of it.
It's neither. It's a relatively obscure concept that has little effect on anything.

Parties needs to be that way, if they only had one cause on their agenda, they would not be very effective at governing i'd imagine. Non-political ideal organizations though: Amnesty, Greenpeace, Red Cross, MSF, WWF, etc mostly concern themselves with a few key causes. I'm sure most people volunteering for Amensty for example could get behind the idea of strengthening animal rights, but it's still not the focus of their organization.
All of the organisations you listed are political in their nature. The Red Cross is particularly wide ranging in its operations. And there's little reasons why some organisations can't focus on one thing while others focus on multiple things. There's no one way to be.

https://everydayfeminism.com/2017/09/no-body-positivity-no-feminism/

This is literally the first thing that came up when i googled it. Since intersectionality aims at being as broad as possible this would fit right in as a subcategory of identity.
That article is one persons opinion, and considering she's not our authoritarian leader her opinion isn't fact. If you just google body positive movement the first sites are vanilla stuff like it's wiki entry, which mentions nothing about intersectionality.

This whole thing is also closely related to identity politics who tries to create an inverse social pyramid based on what people are, rather then who they are. Like uranium it's pretty harmless and actually quite useful when used as a tool but it very quickly gets turned into a weapon

Another example here:
https://www.thenation.com/article/feminisms-toxic-twitter-wars/

I'm sorry, but to me it seems intersectionality creates more conflict than it solves
The infighting would happen without or without the concept of intersectionality. Twitter has brought to the fore voices that until a few years had no outlet. It's happened to every group with a sizeable enough base.

I'm sorry, but to me it seems intersectionality creates more conflict than it solves
It's not meant to solve conflict, it's an analysis tool.

I agree it is a harsh example but I feel that is fairly representative of what we see on many college campuses from young liberals. The shouting down of differing opinions, character assassination and competitive victimhood. I'd argue that one of the causes of the latter 2 is the way all forums of inequality are grouped together as they seem to rank them. It is troubling seeing these kids not being able to deal with that logically as they will be the ones charged with the future of such matters.

Maybe you disagree that it is loosely representative?
It seems to me that once you look under the surface the reports are largely exaggerated. A university at chaos turns out to be 0.01% of the students protesting while the rest are fingering each other and getting shitfaced. I don't know, maybe the ones who aren't taking part in the protests are passively supporting it and are of the same mindset. But it seems more likely that they're just like every generation before, mostly apathetic with a minority who became extremely vested in political ideologies - usually recent developments in ideology that older people just don't understand.
 
It seems to me that once you look under the surface the reports are largely exaggerated. A university at chaos turns out to be 0.01% of the students protesting while the rest are fingering each other and getting shitfaced. I don't know, maybe the ones who aren't taking part in the protests are passively supporting it and are of the same mindset. But it seems more likely that they're just like every generation before, mostly apathetic with a minority who became extremely vested in political ideologies - usually recent developments in ideology that older people just don't understand.

As someone who earns a good amount of my living working within Universities. Looking at the three character traits or mentality traits mentioned I would feel very confident saying that 0.01% estimate is wildly inaccurate. That is in the UK let alone the US where entire colleges have become dominated by this. Regardless of that I think it is very common that the loudest voices are often the ones which get heard. I just don't see how this behaviour has “feck all" to do with intersectionality and where it is heading. There are plenty of more considered and moderate voices on the left but they are having to fight to not get drowned out.
 
It is the best system so far in that regard, but when looking at the historical competition, this doesn't mean much. The last ~150 years of capitalism tell a vastly different story about opportunities for the poor in general. It only looks so from the perspective of the global minority that's equipped with at least modest chances for upward mobility, i.e. a privileged group.

Capitalism in its core means that if I want your money I have to provide you with a service and I can choose which service I specialise in. That choice makes it the most free, the more freedom, the more possibility for advancement or change of any kind.

A great deal of the issues you are referencing come from people in positions of power not giving minorities equal standing as a participant in capitalism.

A perversion in the system meaning that it wasn't truly applied to the entire population. A fault of people, not system. It is possible to argue that capitalism is more easily corrupted than other ideologies but as far as ones which are compatible with our culture I disagree.
 
Poverty has been on decline in every political/economic/cultural system since practically forever. And it's not the politicians, economy or culture that has improved lives, it's the handful of people who invented something useful things like the wheel, penicillin or a vaccine. If you were born in Mongolia in the year 1200, you'd think raiding was the best way to bring people out poverty. If you were born in 19th century Britain, you'd think it was imperialism.

Would there not have been spikes with places like Stalinist Russia?
Interesting point though
 
Capitalism in its core means that if I want your money I have to provide you with a service and I can choose which service I specialise in. That choice makes it the most free, the more freedom, the more possibility for advancement or change of any kind.

A great deal of the issues you are referencing come from people in positions of power not giving minorities equal standing as a participant in capitalism.

A perversion in the system meaning that it wasn't truly applied to the entire population. A fault of people, not system. It is possible to argue that capitalism is more easily corrupted than other ideologies but as far as ones which are compatible with our culture I disagree.
That freedom is an abstract freedom, which is kind of the trick. It (ideally) gives everyone equal rights to participate in the market economy, while disregarding the vast pre-existing differences in actual possibilities. A kid from a poverty-ridden neighbourhood has the same abstract chance to later get a well paid job as a kid born into a wealthy household. I know who I'd bet on making it. So to me your point mistakes the theoretical chance to succeed in capitalism for the actual chance to succeed there in real life.

Likewise, the discrimination of women and minorities is not the origin of social inequality, it's just a method of passing the buck to selected groups. Advocates of capitalism usually laud the competitive relationship it establishes between people. But the point of competition is that someone has to be the loser - if it weren't for discrimination, poverty and bad opportunities would just be distributed more evenly between social groups.
 
That freedom is an abstract freedom, which is kind of the trick. It (ideally) gives everyone equal rights to participate in the market economy, while disregarding the vast pre-existing differences in actual possibilities. A kid from a poverty-ridden neighbourhood has the same abstract chance to later get a well paid job as a kid born into a wealthy household. I know who I'd bet on making it. So to me your point mistakes the theoretical chance to succeed in capitalism for the actual chance to succeed there in real life.

Likewise, the discrimination of women and minorities is not the origin of social inequality, it's just a method of passing the buck to selected groups. Advocates of capitalism usually laud the competitive relationship it establishes between people. But the point of competition is that someone has to be the loser - if it weren't for discrimination, poverty and bad opportunities would just be distributed more evenly between social groups.

You say that freedom is abstract and then point to it being absolute (in this context) which doesn't make sense to me. What you are talking about is inequality not freedom of choice in a market. Is inequality bad? Yes. Is it insurmountable in western culture? Only for 2% of people statistically. If you make the correct personal choices regardless of your circumstances or anything else not under your control then you will not remain in poverty in capitalism.

https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/...teens-should-follow-to-join-the-middle-class/

"Being a loser" is subjective. If you look at capitalism as a competition (which is a misstep) then I am a loser due to the fact that my boss earns more money than me, hell the fact that Bill Gates earns more money than me. That doesn't mean I can't live a comfortable existence. Yes social biases and discrimination are problems but as shown above capitalism allows for this to be overcome.

Would you care to suggest a better system?
 
@Silva : I dont think this is getting anywhere and this debate seems to be locked in a stalemate :lol:

Just so it's clear i am absolutely for fighting for social issues, i also agree that intersectionality can be a useful analytical tool. I have two problems with it though as i've mentioned
1. I don't think intersectionality as a framework is a good idea when talking about real world activism for two reasons
a. There are too many variables too make any kind of focused effort
b. It can make matters unnecessarily complicated

2. Some people have been using the idea of intersectionality wrong and imo it has lead us to the whole: "victim-mentality" and "trigger warning" debacle and it places too much emphasis on what people are rather than who they are. When philosophy students don't want to read Plato simply on the grounds of him being a white man, it has gone to far imo

That's what i love about partly anonymous forums like these. For all i know you could be a disabled, black gay woman or you could win the societal lottery (like me) and be a straight white man, in the end it does not matter, your opinion is just as valid as anyone's
 
He's English himself, the twit.
 
I think I might know what he's trying to get at though. Its summed up by our flag. Welsh people can happily display Welsh flags and bask in the patriotism of it. I have a completely different relationship with St George's Cross. I couldnt see myself ever waving it / identifying with it. It has unfortunate negative connotations.

Im not that keen on the Union Jack either.
 
I get where he's coming from. The English aren't a patriotic bunch really, and the ones who are tend to be associated with the whole skin head, England flag out the window thing.
 
I actually think English people are quite patriotic. Even people who are uncomfortable with our flag, or who think our national anthem is an embarrassment.
Maybe, I guess it depends on where you are. I'm English and I can't say I'm that bothered, a lot of people down here in the south west tend to think of themselves as Cornish anyway.
 
I get where he's coming from. The English aren't a patriotic bunch really, and the ones who are tend to be associated with the whole skin head, England flag out the window thing.

I think I might know what he's trying to get at though. Its summed up by our flag. Welsh people can happily display Welsh flags and bask in the patriotism of it. I have a completely different relationship with St George's Cross. I couldnt see myself ever waving it / identifying with it. It has unfortunate negative connotations.

Im not that keen on the Union Jack either.

It's a bit of a catch 22 though, you want to be able to fly the flag with no racist, negative connotations but you don't because the you don't want to associate with those negatives. I'm not explaining it very well but I guess not flying the flag, increases the perception that it's a negative thing and only increases the divide.
 
It's a bit of a catch 22 though, you want to be able to fly the flag with no racist, negative connotations but you don't because the you don't want to associate with those negatives. I'm not explaining it very well but I guess not flying the flag, increases the perception that it's a negative thing and only increases the divide.
You did explain it well and yes you make a good point.
 
In general, I reckon that anyone who flies any national flag is a bit of a dick. Patriotism is seen as a bit more acceptable coming from nations with a history of a struggle for independence (Wales, Ireland) but you can usually rest assured that any Irish or Welsh man who plasters his gaff with flags is a prat, until proven otherwise.

All bets are off during football tournaments, obviously.
 
I've never met a Canadian who didn't have a Maple Leaf sewn onto his or her backpack. When travelling, of course. I presume they want people to know they're not American.

Watch out for the Americans who do that to trick you.
 
I've never met a Canadian who didn't have a Maple Leaf sewn onto his or her backpack. When travelling, of course. I presume they want people to know they're not American.

Irish people do the same, people are much friendlier.
I dont even think its entirely so people aren't mistaking you as being english or american but ... it does help tbh.

Got off the plane in auckland and went into a bar.
Once the guy who ran the place found out we were irish he insisted we hang around for a lock in and to sing songs and drink his beer free of charge.
Strange and brilliant.
 
In general, I reckon that anyone who flies any national flag is a bit of a dick. Patriotism is seen as a bit more acceptable coming from nations with a history of a struggle for independence (Wales, Ireland) but you can usually rest assured that any Irish or Welsh man who plasters his gaff with flags is a prat, until proven otherwise.

All bets are off during football tournaments, obviously.

Completely agree with you, other than the footie like you said. I give passes on the Welsh dragon tattoos, just because I think it's a badass design :D , though people who have them tend to be dicks
 
In general, I reckon that anyone who flies any national flag is a bit of a dick. Patriotism is seen as a bit more acceptable coming from nations with a history of a struggle for independence (Wales, Ireland) but you can usually rest assured that any Irish or Welsh man who plasters his gaff with flags is a prat, until proven otherwise.

All bets are off during football tournaments, obviously.

Usually cos it's done in lieu of having anything else interesting about you to promote.

I actually think English people are quite patriotic. Even people who are uncomfortable with our flag, or who think our national anthem is an embarrassment.

I get where your coming from. I hate Nationalism, our flag, our anthem, a lot of our history and the very idea of our monarchy, but I can't deny I quite like being English for some reason. I can't really put my finger on it though. I certainly feel more like a Londoner than a fellow Englishman in most places up north, and even some down south, and most of the times I tangibly feel English abroad - football not permitting - are when I'm actively embarrassed by it. In anglersized Spanish resorts for example. Or sometimes football....Alright, quite often football.
 
Usually cos it's done in lieu of having anything else interesting about you to promote.



I get where your coming from. I hate Nationalism, our flag, our anthem, a lot of our history and the very idea of our monarchy, but I can't deny I quite like being English for some reason. I can't really put my finger on it though. I certainly feel more like a Londoner than a fellow Englishman in most places up north, and even some down south, and most of the times I tangibly feel English abroad - football not permitting - are when I'm actively embarrassed by it. In anglersized Spanish resorts for example. Or sometimes football....Alright, quite often football.
I remember at Uni in a tutorial we were discussing identity and all of us were asked to write down three things, three groups we belonged to, as in English, British, European, Manc, Londoner, mixed race, whatever. Whichever ones you felt most strongly. It was really interesting how people differed. I feel more English than British I must say. But probably more Londoner than English.
 
I remember at Uni in a tutorial we were discussing identity and all of us were asked to write down three things, three groups we belonged to, as in English, British, European, Manc, Londoner, mixed race, whatever. Whichever ones you felt most strongly. It was really interesting how people differed. I feel more English than British I must say. But probably more Londoner than English.

That could make an interesting thread
 
I remember at Uni in a tutorial we were discussing identity and all of us were asked to write down three things, three groups we belonged to, as in English, British, European, Manc, Londoner, mixed race, whatever. Whichever ones you felt most strongly. It was really interesting how people differed. I feel more English than British I must say. But probably more Londoner than English.

Depends where you are a lot as well. I definitely feel more like a Londoner when I'm in England, or places like New York that are very multicultural and similar, but I feel more English in somewhere like the MidWest, or the south of France/Spain etc.

I don't really think of myself as British that often. Not sure why, but probably because the distinction isn't important enough to me, whereas it would be moreso to someone from Belfast or Edinburgh perhaps.
 
Depends where you are a lot as well. I definitely feel more like a Londoner when I'm in England, or places like New York that are very multicultural and similar, but I feel more English in somewhere like the MidWest, or the south of France/Spain etc.

I don't really think of myself as British that often. Not sure why, but probably because the distinction isn't important enough to me, whereas it would be moreso to someone from Belfast or Edinburgh perhaps.
True but then on the other hand you do find people from Edinburgh and Belfast often feel more fiercely Irish or Scottish than British. I guess that's a huge generalisation.

The point being, identity is like concentric circles, you can be many different things all at once but some you feel more strongly than others. And they dont all have to be about nationality or what city you are from, being a United fan could constitute a significant part of your own identity - you could feel more loyalty to your tribe as a United fan than to your country or city.

During the whole Brexit debate I realised that I care a lot less about the whole concept of the nation state than a lot of other people clearly do, hence not being particularly moved by arguments about "taking back control". And I feel much more comfortable with the concept of a supranational political grouping like Europe than most British people obviously do - certainly most English people. I am quite happy to think of myself as European. I reckon I feel more European than British. (Despite speaking no European languages.)