Has Martial done enough to be backed as our long-term #9?

The problem with Martial is that he's just like Nani or Berbatov. When he's in form he's on fire and looks silky, classy and unstoppable. When he's off form he looks lazy and disinterested. It's a deja vu in a way because I remember reading the exact same criticism about those 2 players as well.

Also it's important to remember that even our most prolific No.9's had patches when they couldn't score to save their lives. I specifically remember that RvP went on a barren spell in our crucial part of the season and those ties against RM. RvN also had a few patches were he couldn't score to save his life. The difference was that when those 2 were misfiring we had people like Rooney who could pick up the mantle. If Martial continues his spell into January then this is when we have to start looking for a replacement. Till then let's have some patience.

And finally, why do people expect him to be a Harry Kane and Tevez hybrid. It's all about the system. Footballers like Messi and Firmino have played in the No.9 role despite the fact that neither of them are CFs.

Volumiza said:
I reckon he was onto something you know.
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The man was a striker himself so he would know a thing or two about that.
 
It's a tricky one - the fact is Martial scored 17 PL goals last year, a total that didn't include a single penalty and you also have to take into account that missed a few games before Christmas through injury. If your CF is scoring 17 every year in open play that's good going.

The problem for me is that he isn't a natural in the position when it comes to finding space and making runs and I think this can be detrimental to the rest of the team. So, whilst he is a good player and (usually) a good finisher, he's not a 'proper' CF for me.

I think it's an education thing these days with young forwards...it seems to me that Martial is obsessed with the idea of being the #9, when in reality now the role of a forward is much more fluid and teams like Liverpool have shown that not being the CF doesn't mean you're not the main goal threat.

For me, Martial is best when he is able to drive at defences at pace. He has excellent dribbling skills and close control and could be a real threat playing in the inside left channel with Cavani as the CF and Telles bombing on down the left to create an overload.

That means leaving Rashford and Greenwood to fight it out for the RW position. You could utilise Rashford to give us the width that AWB doesn't really offer us and you could use Greenwood if you want someone cutting in from the flank to shoot at goal. Personally, I would give Greenwood another go for a few weeks
 
Bebestation said:
I never thought of this before but I'm starting to think about this too.

The whole " we are too big of a club to loan Reguilon ", we wont buy Haaland because we dont want him to leave us - like we are already at the top of the elite and the players are consistently joining our rivals or enemies.

The fact is we buy shit. We literally buy Ighalo and an ageing Cavani for our strikers instead of who and for what purpose? Waiting for the right player to join and let everyone else suffer during that time? Maybe in woodwards mind.
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So just because we aren`t as elite as we were in the past should automatically mean we should sell our standards for the purpose of short term glory/being a cash cow for players like Dortmund? The way every organization has certain protocols that should be followed or have standards that should never be dropped no matter what is the same way Man Utd no matter how bad we are should not agree to be a stepping stone for any player especially someone like Reguilon whom we got a better player over anyway
 
Schmeichel's Cartwheel said:
Remember when people were saying we shouldn’t get Haaland because “we have Martial”

Granted, Haaland wouldn’t score as many goals in England as he’d have to play against parked buses rather than high lines every week in Germany but he’s clearly a far more natural finisher than Martial though.
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:lol: its tragic really. The Martial feelings police were worse. "he won't like it, we can't, will someone please think of Martial!!!".
 
I come at this from a slightly different angle.

I've always seen the role of a 9 as being the focal point of a team from an attacking perspective, mostly operating in the box. This needs a certain sort of character. Consider a cross-section of the most successful number 9s in their prime - Benzema, Falcao, Ibra, Toni, Cavani, Lewandowski, Suarez, Shearer, Cole, Hugo Sanchez, Batistuta, Gerd Muller and pre-fat Ronaldo.

All of these guys put fear into defenders and generated confidence in their team mates, which encouraged them to get the ball to them in goal-scoring situations. They were reliable, strong, aggressive, hungry, they bullied the opposition and above all, they wanted the ball in the net. They were also predators with a skill set to match including the ability to head a ball into the opposition's net.

After watching Martial since he joined us, I have concluded he doesn't match up to this specification. That's not to say he isn't talented or a good footballer. I agree he's talented and he can have some very good games (but not often enough).

He's not got the predator mindset, he won't bully a defence, he won't put himself in dangerous positions to score goals and he isn't hungry enough for them. In this position, he's definitely style over substance, as I see it and we don't need luxury players, we need effective ones, in every position.
 
Doesn’t work hard enough off the ball for me. Especially if you’re going to press and especially when you compare him to say, Jamie Vardy, who is the epitome of the modern day number 9.
 
Schmeichel's Cartwheel said:
Remember when people were saying we shouldn’t get Haaland because “we have Martial”

Granted, Haaland wouldn’t score as many goals in England as he’d have to play against parked buses rather than high lines every week in Germany but he’s clearly a far more natural finisher than Martial though.
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Judas said:
:lol: its tragic really. The Martial feelings police were worse. "he won't like it, we can't, will someone please think of Martial!!!".
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People also said he is better than Kane and has greater upside potential, so the Haaland thing is nothing special to be honest.
 
At what age does the potential crap got dusted?

He's 25 now. He's fully made player. At best he mature abit mentalitiy wise but his technique skill physique pace will only go down from this point onward.

Only united fans keeps on harpint potenial as if it's a given that players would keep on improving folds every year. Martial hasn improved much every year. But somehow next year is his year and he'll become henry
 
I'm sorry guys but I'm so fecking done with this shite. I'm so fecking done chasing potential that will never be fulfilled.
 
What the hell has happened to him? If there was one thing that was consistently good about him, it was his finishing. His movement/anticipation were not up to par for long stretches of his career here but this new disease of missing easy chances is baffling.

I actually think he played OK tonight, got into dangerous positions, caused problems for their defence, provided that delicious pass to Bruno at the end of the first half - but he couldn't finish the easiest chance in the world, and not for the first time this season.
 
These games show the difference between having a world class striker and having Martial.

He should have buried at least one of his chances. He's been missing chances left and right, whether with us or with France.

Never a number 9.

And that's not knee-jerk, he had chance after chance to prove he can do it...
 
Siorac said:
What the hell has happened to him? If there was one thing that was consistently good about him, it was his finishing. His movement/anticipation were not up to par for long stretches of his career here but this new disease of missing easy chances is baffling.

I actually think he played OK tonight, got into dangerous positions, caused problems for their defence, provided that delicious pass to Bruno at the end of the first half - but he couldn't finish the easiest chance in the world, and not for the first time this season.
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Yeah that miss feels very costly right now but gotta forget about it until next weeks game
 
Wouldn't have finished 3rd without him last season.

But this season has shown that he isn't good enough. We need an upgrade.
 
Nope, had to confirm from his very good performances last season, and he's failed. Every time you think he's figured it out, he either gets injured or loses form, sometimes both and that's what happened this season. He's definitely done some decent things against PSG, could have had an assist or two, but he's criminally wasted a couple of very good chances that someone at his position should finish.
 
I wouldn’t mind seeing him leave.
Lets be real, most united fans are scared to see him go because they think he might magically fulfill his potential somewhere else.
I doubt he would suddenly become a consistent world class player anywhere else. And he won’t here either.
 
I don’t want him to leave. It makes all the people saying we shouldn’t bring in another top attacking player look silly though. We need competition for places to push the likes of rashford and martial on. Nobody should be guaranteed a start here regardless of their form. Rashford/Martial start even if their half fit.
 
Siorac said:
What the hell has happened to him? If there was one thing that was consistently good about him, it was his finishing. His movement/anticipation were not up to par for long stretches of his career here but this new disease of missing easy chances is baffling.

I actually think he played OK tonight, got into dangerous positions, caused problems for their defence, provided that delicious pass to Bruno at the end of the first half - but he couldn't finish the easiest chance in the world, and not for the first time this season.
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He's not a good finisher, never has been. I have never understood that feeling that he was. If you can only consistently take one type of shot then you're not a good finisher.He legitimately has to turn his entire body around just to shoot. His finishing with his head is average too and he barely ever shoots with power. Even when one on one, can we really say that you trust him making the right decision even 5 out of ten of the time. To be a good finisher for me, you would at least need an 8 ou of ten in those types of situations. Finishing is about decision making in scoring goals. Not simply having accuracy in one type of shot ( which has to come from one side of the pitch)
 
I think I'm firmly in the position where he isn't going to be our long term central striker, but as part of the rotation/main group of 4 players to fill 3 attacking positions, he's a great option. Martial/Rashford/Greenwood/Cavani. Play them based on form/opponents/fitness. Martial is woefully out of form right now, and he'll come back from this, but people saying we should sell him are idiotic. You need a group of 4 like that in attack. Can't just say feck it, sell him because he himself hasn't lived up to the Henry type potential people thought he had. He's still an excellent player.
 
Remember the outrage on here when Mourinho wanted him gone ? He was right, I don’t mind seeing him as a rotation player but never good enough to start every game for a team that wants to win big honours
 
bosnian_red said:
I think I'm firmly in the position where he isn't going to be our long term central striker, but as part of the rotation/main group of 4 players to fill 3 attacking positions, he's a great option. Martial/Rashford/Greenwood/Cavani. Play them based on form/opponents/fitness. Martial is woefully out of form right now, and he'll come back from this, but people saying we should sell him are idiotic. You need a group of 4 like that in attack. Can't just say feck it, sell him because he himself hasn't lived up to the Henry type potential people thought he had. He's still an excellent player.
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I agreed in part with some of what you said. Then you call him excellent. No way. Great at times. But spectacularly inconsistent. So no way you can call him excellent in my opinion.
 
tjb said:
He's not a good finisher, never has been. I have never understood that feeling that he was. If you can only consistently take one type of shot then you're not a good finisher.He legitimately has to turn his entire body around just to shoot. His finishing with his head is average too and he barely ever shoots with power. Even when one on one, can we really say that you trust him making the right decision even 5 out of ten of the time. To be a good finisher for me, you would at least need an 8 ou of ten in those types of situations. Finishing is about decision making in scoring goals. Not simply having accuracy in one type of shot ( which has to come from one side of the pitch)
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He definitely is a good finisher. He's having a poor run of finishing form. But very few players consistently overperformed their xG the way he did, year after year. Messi one of the only ones. In the league in his career he's basically finishing at a rate of 20% higher than expected from his chances. That's by every single definition, excellent finishing. Messi is at 19% for comparison.
 
bosnian_red said:
I think I'm firmly in the position where he isn't going to be our long term central striker, but as part of the rotation/main group of 4 players to fill 3 attacking positions, he's a great option. Martial/Rashford/Greenwood/Cavani. Play them based on form/opponents/fitness. Martial is woefully out of form right now, and he'll come back from this, but people saying we should sell him are idiotic. You need a group of 4 like that in attack. Can't just say feck it, sell him because he himself hasn't lived up to the Henry type potential people thought he had. He's still an excellent player.
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I don't want him sold, he can still be a good option to have, but I'm done with the experiment of him as a main starter in the long term. We need to focus more on what benefits the club than what benefits individual players, and try to get more consistent attackers than bang goals consistently. It's inexcusable to have a player that can be in so off form for about 2-3 months in a row. It's ridiculous to have a starter that can like that in any big club, so good for him as just an option to have in the squad, but it's time to move on and sign some more consistent attackers.
 
He likes too much time. His last chance he waited too long and the defender blocked. He is not an aggressive instinctual predator so he is not an option as number 9. He is fine in rotation but that is his limit I think. I feel the same about Pogba also. Both supremely talented but lacking the urgency needed to be top class.
 
5 years of false dawns and disappointment.

He's going nowhere because we're the only "elite" club who tolerates this kind of mediocrity.
 
bosnian_red said:
He definitely is a good finisher. He's having a poor run of finishing form. But very few players consistently overperformed their xG the way he did, year after year. Messi one of the only ones. In the league in his career he's basically finishing at a rate of 20% higher than expected from his chances. That's by every single definition, excellent finishing. Messi is at 19% for comparison.
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XG might not account for the fact he doesn't put himself in enough positions to actually score because he is so focused on scoring a specific type of goal.
 
Played number 9 all of last year. 23 goals in all competitions is average. Elite teams have top Strikers scoring 30-40.

Is he elite level?

Not for me
 
dirkey said:
I agreed in part with some of what you said. Then you call him excellent. No way. Great at times. But spectacularly inconsistent. So no way you can call him excellent in my opinion.
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He's in bad form, but he's still an excellent player. I guess it's definition of excellent player. I'd say he's at a level where any club in the world would have him as part of their rotation of 4 for their front 3, while not necessarily being an automatic starter or nail down the left wing or striker positions. Or at the same level of player that other clubs have there (like Gnabry/Sane at Bayern for example).
 
bosnian_red said:
I think I'm firmly in the position where he isn't going to be our long term central striker, but as part of the rotation/main group of 4 players to fill 3 attacking positions, he's a great option. Martial/Rashford/Greenwood/Cavani. Play them based on form/opponents/fitness. Martial is woefully out of form right now, and he'll come back from this, but people saying we should sell him are idiotic. You need a group of 4 like that in attack. Can't just say feck it, sell him because he himself hasn't lived up to the Henry type potential people thought he had. He's still an excellent player.
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In form, last season = 23 goals in all competitions

Title winning sides have strikers scoring 30+

Hes not elite level. He’s good on his day, largely inconsistent. Show me a year of Martial being truly top class.
 
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