He's been disappointing but not through lack of effort or character. Nevertheless he hasn't had the impact i expected when we signed him.
Has Juan Mata been a flop?
- Thread starter Raees
- Start date
Definitely a flop. Had he had Pogba’s off the field presence, he would’ve been lambasted here. His nature (Hugs?) has afforded him some love and respect from the fans.
But as our record signing at the time, never has he:
— Consistently performed in a run of games
— Featured as the player to build the team around
— Been the key player who has been highlighted as the key danger man for the opposition
— Been close to be considered for any individual honors such as Team of the Season, or even United player of the season
He has had some randomly scattered good moments but probably due to a lack of suitability to the playing system, he is definitely a flop in my book.
But as our record signing at the time, never has he:
— Consistently performed in a run of games
— Featured as the player to build the team around
— Been the key player who has been highlighted as the key danger man for the opposition
— Been close to be considered for any individual honors such as Team of the Season, or even United player of the season
He has had some randomly scattered good moments but probably due to a lack of suitability to the playing system, he is definitely a flop in my book.
Not exactly a flop, but not a success for sure. But ultimately I think the main reason is the collective failure of the team during the post-Fergie era, more than the player himself. After all, its not like we've had loads of high performers during that time.
He mostly played on the right for Chelsea as Lampard was the central midfielder. Also for Valencia FC while David Silva was the no 10.
Also, he got mostly deployed as a no 10 in Mourinho's first season with us. Same under Moyes. He played many times as a no 10 but didn't impress. I don't even think he's one but a forward either as a wing foward on the right like he did for Chelsea and Valencia or SS through the middle. He needs a creative midfielder picking out his runs through the middle or on the wing but we never had one until Pogba who's quite inconsistent.
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When you look at some of the players who went for less than Mata's price during his signing, and the one's that went for more.. he definitely has been flop levels of bad taking into account his overall impact on the club. That doesn't mean we were the only club to sign flops during this time period and Mata wasn't as bad as some of them - but calling a spade a spade, he still was a bad signing taking into account what we paid.
We're talking about only Luis Suarez, Neymar, Bale and Ozil (who could also be said to have been a flop - but that is a seperate discussion) being worth more than him.
2013/2014 Transfer Window
2014/2015 Transfer Window
We're talking about only Luis Suarez, Neymar, Bale and Ozil (who could also be said to have been a flop - but that is a seperate discussion) being worth more than him.
2013/2014 Transfer Window
- Mata to United was £40m
- Fellaini to United was £29m
- Neymar to Barcelona £80m
- Bale to Madrid £90m
- Isco to Madrid £27m
- Carvajal to Madrid £6m
- Casemeiro to Madrid £6m
- Thiago to Bayern £22m
- Fernandinho to Man City was £36m
- Willian to Chelsea was £32m
- Matic to Chelsea was £22m
- Salah to Chelsea £15m
- Ozil to Arsenal was £42m
- Eriksen to Spurs was £12m
- Giminez to Atletico £1m
- Alderweirald to Atletico £6m
- Aubameyang to Dortmund £12m
2014/2015 Transfer Window
- Griezmann to Atletico £27m
- Suarez to Barca £73m
- Kroos to Madrid £22m
- Diego Costa to Chelsea £34m
- Fabregas to Chelsea £29m
- Lallana to Liverpool £28m
- Bony to Man City £30m
- Mangala to Man City £28m
- Delle Alli to Tottenham £6m
- Lewandowski free transfer Bayern
- Sanchez to Arsenal £38m
Wouldn't say he has been a flop but compared to his success for us he certainly has been a disappointment at United in my opinion. The changing of managers definitely didn't help him though. It's easy to forget just how good he was for us before he got dropped by Jose. Was genuinely outstanding for a couple of seasons.
We’ve not really allowed him to thrive, playing him out of position.
But he’s scored quite a few important goals in big games, and generally been a reliable senior member of the squad.
Not a flop but not really a runaway success either, especially given how brilliant he was at Chelsea.
But he’s scored quite a few important goals in big games, and generally been a reliable senior member of the squad.
Not a flop but not really a runaway success either, especially given how brilliant he was at Chelsea.
But when you post nonsense like that, I kind of makes it hard to take anything else you've written seriously.
But that's exactly the crux of the issue with Mata, isn't it? He was supposed to come here and become our main creative force when, for the vast majority of his career, he's hardly been this type of player. Many people like to point at his Chelsea years and they completely disregard the fact that it was a rather mediocre side (finished 6th & 3rd) which was carried to a CL trophy not by its footballing qualities but by the sheer character of its Old Guard and their masterful defensive displays.
Mata had his breakthrough seasons at Valencia under Emery as pretty much a SS. In 08/09 he would start from the left to become the closest player to Villa (who was leading the line) with Joaquin being the more traditional winger on the right. In 09/10 he would spent more time on the right wing in 442-ish tactics. That version of Valencia had Silva and Banega as their main creative force. During his last season in Spain, Mata indeed had a more creative role but he was starting at the right of the midfield again with instructions to cut inside and provide final balls towards Aduriz/Soldado. Throughout his career, Mata has made a name for himself by providing double figures (or close to that number) in goals and assists and not by being the focal point of his team's creativity.
So, watching him trying to get to the end of moves shouldn't really be very surprising because this is actually his natural game. What is truly bizarre about him is the notion some people have that all he ever needed in order to flourish at OT was a more central role. He can't turn his man, his first touch always moves him backwards or sideways because he needs space in order to turn around and face the goal and he doesn't possess the ability to influence the midfield battle from a slightly deeper position but, yeah, let's stick him right in the heart of the midfield. Nevermind the fact that he's spent most of his good years not playing as a #10.
Chelsea became title contenders again when they moved him on and added different qualities to their midfield. All the great creative/attacking players of his generation, Iniesta/Fabregas/Silva never had any problems with being deployed on the wings or deeper in the midfield. Why? Because they possessed genuine orchestrating skills and the ability to respond well under pressure and in tight spaces. People are acting as if the wide play-maker role is some kind of monstrosity that has never worked at the highest level. When renown managers like LvG and Mourinho (and now Ole, for what it's worth) end up with Jesse fecking Lingard as the player whose movement and vision will make things happen for us, there shouldn't even be a discussion about Mata as a play-maker.
If anything, Mata was a victim of Manchester United needing to make a statement of relevance after an utterly pathetic transfer window and a rather lukewarm start with Moyes at the helm back in 2013. He was never a creative machine and he would always suffer as a SS (starting either in the hole or on the right) in a side that depends on crosses and hoof-ball to get the ball forward.
I never rated him that much at Chelsea, so performed about as well as I expected here.
Maybe flop is a little harsh but he was Chelsea's player of the year twice I believe, playing in a mixture of LW, 10 and RW. Came here for what was a big fee at the time and has largely been a good squad player, rarely hitting his Chelsea heights. Hmm, maybe flop wasn't that harsh...
Like Fellaini he did just enough not to be considered a flop IMO but he wasn’t a great signing.
We paid slightly less for Mata than Arsenal did for Ozil five months earlier. Ozil’s had a poor last year or so but his Arsenal career was much better than Mata’s United career.
We paid slightly less for Mata than Arsenal did for Ozil five months earlier. Ozil’s had a poor last year or so but his Arsenal career was much better than Mata’s United career.
Other than the Liverpool goal I'm struggling to think of anything that he's done.
No chance at all that he's a flop. Probably our most consistent attacker in the post-SAF era and has had to adapt to multiple managers who never truly trusted him. Yes, he's probably past it now and has been since 2018 but until 2018/19, he was pretty much guaranteed 10 goals and 10 assists per season.
In a dysfunctional team like ours was at that point (and still is), it was absolutely a respectable return.
In a dysfunctional team like ours was at that point (and still is), it was absolutely a respectable return.
He was arguably the best player in the league for the two seasons before we signed him (alongside RvP), and he cost us a club record fee at the time.
If you define 'flop' as someone who failed to reach the standards they'd previously set, and that you'd expected when you signed them, then yes, absolutely.
If you define 'flop' as someone who failed to reach the standards they'd previously set, and that you'd expected when you signed them, then yes, absolutely.
Always played out of position, so we have never got the best out of him. Shame he rarely played the 10 role. I blame the idiots in charge of us over the years that never made the most of his talent. From Chelsea's POTY to right winger for us............bonkers. Even more galling in that he is a top bloke off the pitch. He must have the patience of a saint putting up with being messed around since he arrived.
When Mata arrived at OT you got the feeling it was by accident, Moyes didn't seem to know what to do with him and its only since that signing that we have begun to realise the 'Woodward' effect on our transfer strategy.
Juan was never bought specifically for a role, for a time he found one out on the right, but his lack of speed was always a problem. On the few times he was played as an out and out 10, he seem to 'slip up'. He was a top player when he arrived, but we were not a top side and as with other players since, Di Maria, Falcao, now Pogba, we haven't been good enough to absorb them or play to their strengths.
Not really been a success in terms of his own potential, but has been a good squad player.
Juan was never bought specifically for a role, for a time he found one out on the right, but his lack of speed was always a problem. On the few times he was played as an out and out 10, he seem to 'slip up'. He was a top player when he arrived, but we were not a top side and as with other players since, Di Maria, Falcao, now Pogba, we haven't been good enough to absorb them or play to their strengths.
Not really been a success in terms of his own potential, but has been a good squad player.
Mata played as a RW for Chelsea in his first season, and he was still their best player (or one of)
I think people are overrating the importance of position. Mata was a very good player for Chelsea on the wing. The complete lack of movement is what's killed him here.
I see Mata and Pogba as two sides of the same coin. Both of them get lambasted for not being our creative hubs - one for not creating enough chances and being too conservative, the other for being too inefficient with his chance creation. Ultimately both of them have suffered from poor coaching that has made them look far worse than they are.
The last couple of years of football have mostly seen teams transition to being almost overcoached. Almost all goals they score are from the training pitch, and on the best teams you can see the coaches fingerprints on almost every attacking move they make. Yet here at Manchester United, the coaches are absolved of coaching responsibilities and the players are left to create and win games off their backs.
I’ll barely remember him in a few years I reckon.
Yes.
Simply wrong for the type of football a united team aim to play as we've always been more of a direct attacking side than anything else. Its little wonder that my most productive memories of him go back to LVG's time here as he liked his sides to play at a slower pace that suits Mata's game.
Simply put the wrong type of player for 4 of the 5 managers we've had since SAF retired (including caretakers) and wouldn't have fit in under SAF himself.
Hope he goes back to Spain where he could have a really good Indian summer back at Valencia or at a Villarreal, Seville or Getafe much like Carzola.
Simply wrong for the type of football a united team aim to play as we've always been more of a direct attacking side than anything else. Its little wonder that my most productive memories of him go back to LVG's time here as he liked his sides to play at a slower pace that suits Mata's game.
Simply put the wrong type of player for 4 of the 5 managers we've had since SAF retired (including caretakers) and wouldn't have fit in under SAF himself.
Hope he goes back to Spain where he could have a really good Indian summer back at Valencia or at a Villarreal, Seville or Getafe much like Carzola.
He’s had a forgettable career here, have no idea where this so called great number 10.
That’s where he’s been playing here for like 70 percent of the time, even when he’s been playing as a RW he still played most of the match in central areas.
He’s gotten even slower(!) over the course of last season it seems.
That’s where he’s been playing here for like 70 percent of the time, even when he’s been playing as a RW he still played most of the match in central areas.
He’s gotten even slower(!) over the course of last season it seems.
You may be right but, if nothing else, Mata is an honest and willing team player and many with a lot less natural ability than Mata have thrived under Fergie with that attitude.
He successfully endears united fans with his cheeky smile and blog.
He fails as a footballer though
He fails as a footballer though
Not a flop, he has been a decent first team members for majority of time, but just not up to our high expectation when we signed him. At least it’s fair to say he wasn’t anywhere near to world class during his time here, maybe we’ve expected too much.
No he didnt. He went straight from his 1 season playing for Valencia in the hole, to playing the same position for Chelsea.
It was only his last season where he was playing on the right to accommodate Oscar and Hazard
Depends what you expected of him.
Big money signing and Chelsea player of the year the previous season.
or
Team who finished third the previous summer, owned by an extremely wealthy man who were under no pressure at all to sell, happy to offload him to one of their rivals towards the top of the table without much fear that it would hurt them.
Big money signing and Chelsea player of the year the previous season.
or
Team who finished third the previous summer, owned by an extremely wealthy man who were under no pressure at all to sell, happy to offload him to one of their rivals towards the top of the table without much fear that it would hurt them.
You're quite right. I had just remembered that Silva was Valencia's creative fulcrum, not Mata. I would even say for the brief period Mata had a good game under Moyes as a no 10, it was Kagawa who was dropping into the central midfield from the left wing to interplay and orchestrate our play. For example the Newcastle game, Aston Villa, Westham games:
https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/7...-2013-2014-Newcastle-United-Manchester-United
A shame that Moyes hardly played Kagawa as a no 10 because he found him too diminutive yet swooped in for another diminutive player because he's got more reputation in the EPL than Kagawa. Kagawa only started 3 games in the EPL as a no 10 under Moyes and I could remember he was good against Swansea and Everton in the three matches he played as a no 10 under Moyes after warming the bench in several matches.
It was only against Spurs, he didn't have a good game but then, he hardly played because right from the start of the season, he was dumped to the bench or was left out of the squad and the few times he was suddenly thrust into the lineups either as a left winger or no 10, he was expected to perform immediately or else he would be back to the bench once again and even if he did well, like he did against Swansea where Welbeck missed several chances, he was still back to the bench role in the following match. Also in the CL campaign, he was really good, especially against Real Sociedad (where Rooney missed several chances), Bayern Munich (where Welbeck missed chances) and Leverkusen, he was really fantastic in the central role but was back to the bench role in the following games.
I have to say Kagawa was one unlucky guy during his time here either under Moyes who was wary of his small stature and under Van Gaal who wanted to mould him into a central midfielder (Maybe it was Giggs who told Van Gaal because Giggs deployed him in a 2-man central midfield in the last few matches he oversaw with us). He was actually good in the role under Giggs, even as he did in the same central midfield role during the last world cup campaign.
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The entire post-Fergie era has been a flop. No point in singling anyone out.
Mata has something like 46 goals and 30 assists in the 5+ years he's been at the club.
While not amazing, it certainly doesn't suggest he was an outright flop. Especially given how shite our team was regardless.
I think describing him as a flop devalues the meaning of a word that we can unfortunately apply to too many players in recent times. If all those failures had contributed as much as Mata then we would have been in a damn healthier place.
While not amazing, it certainly doesn't suggest he was an outright flop. Especially given how shite our team was regardless.
I think describing him as a flop devalues the meaning of a word that we can unfortunately apply to too many players in recent times. If all those failures had contributed as much as Mata then we would have been in a damn healthier place.
Fergie and Gill got him for Moyes, he kind if admitted it after he was sacked. Not really a Moyes player is he
Flop is maybe a bit harsh but then I wouldn’t say he’s been a success either. He’s had great moments, good games, but he has never been or made the impact you would expect someone with his talent to do on a team.
I'd say more a panic buy not what was needed to play right wing. He's scored a few, the 2 at Liverpool the most memorable. So not a flop just the wrong player for the spot bought for. Why the board are trying to get him to stop though is ridiculous.
He played mostly on the wing for Chelsea because Lampard was the central player.
They both played centrally
He's been a flop because of how he's been misused, not through any fault of his own.
Similar to Berbatov in that we bought a player based on his highlights reel, without any real idea or intention of how to use him in the team.
If we bought Oblak and insisted on playing him at Left Back, it wouldn't be fair to label him a flop when he didn't succeed. Exactly the same can be said of expecting Juan Mata to perform as a Right Winger.
Similar to Berbatov in that we bought a player based on his highlights reel, without any real idea or intention of how to use him in the team.
If we bought Oblak and insisted on playing him at Left Back, it wouldn't be fair to label him a flop when he didn't succeed. Exactly the same can be said of expecting Juan Mata to perform as a Right Winger.
He was never what we needed at the time, Mata was a poor buy and a panic decision. Plain as day why Chelsea decided to sell him at the time and they did well out of our desperation.
Agree with others that he wasnt necessarily a flop, just the wrong player at the wrong time.
Agree with others that he wasnt necessarily a flop, just the wrong player at the wrong time.
In his first season at Chelsea, he was mostly deployed on the wing and in his second season, it was split between the wing and the central role. While at Valencia, he was deployed mostly on the wing also.
He's played mostly on the wing throughout his career. The only difference with us was that he was deployed on the right rather than on the left where he could cross with his left foot, considering he was Chelsea's defacto setpiece/corner kick taker and it was one of the things that bolstered his stat.
He was used as a leftwinger at Valencia for all but his last season. He took over the role of Silva when Silva left. He had that 1 season behind the striker, then Chelsea signed him to use him in that role.
Interesting someone has started a thread on the subject. I wouldn't say he's been a flop but not far from it. Certainly we shouldn't have held on to the player for such a long time. Why the feck did Mourinho keep him? He binned the player at Chelsea yet for us he wanted him in the squad. Rumour has it that Mourimho kept Mata against all the odds purely to save his own image in the media, wanting to come accross as the nice guy. Reckon there could be some truth in that. Fecking diabolical!
You can only call him a flop if by flop you mean every single player we have signed since 2014.
We have other expectations and have been largely disappointed at our results, so it is easy enough to look at our results and trace them back to our players not being good enough.
As far as I'm concerned, it was only in the rare games poised for counter tactics that I found him unsuitable. Our average game against a packed defence he was one of the few that could 1) Pick a pass, 2) Pass the ball accurately, 3) Execute a clever one-two, 4) Display intelligent movement to find himself in space/unmarked, 5) Actually try every week.
Doesn't sound earthshattering, but 9/10 of our players don't even offer that. We need better? Maybe, but will results be any different? His main issue has been the other players don't move and aren't half as intelligent as he is. Everyone is too one-dimensional and our lack of width doesn't help.
Was never a right winger but worked that flank well for a while triangulating with Herrera and Valencia... then Valencia stopped running as much and increased the ratio of standoffs and shinwhacks (you know, when he squares up to a defender and stands there until hell freezes over, then realises the guy won't move and shoots at him). We haven't had a decent attacking rightback to play off him on the overlap and he is no right winger, that's hardly Mata's fault.
We certainly haven't failed because of Mata, he hasn't dragged us to a win too often either (doubt anyone ever thought we had bought that though). We sure can't build and plan for the future with him as a key player (mind, we never did), but he ain't the problem either.
We have other expectations and have been largely disappointed at our results, so it is easy enough to look at our results and trace them back to our players not being good enough.
As far as I'm concerned, it was only in the rare games poised for counter tactics that I found him unsuitable. Our average game against a packed defence he was one of the few that could 1) Pick a pass, 2) Pass the ball accurately, 3) Execute a clever one-two, 4) Display intelligent movement to find himself in space/unmarked, 5) Actually try every week.
Doesn't sound earthshattering, but 9/10 of our players don't even offer that. We need better? Maybe, but will results be any different? His main issue has been the other players don't move and aren't half as intelligent as he is. Everyone is too one-dimensional and our lack of width doesn't help.
Was never a right winger but worked that flank well for a while triangulating with Herrera and Valencia... then Valencia stopped running as much and increased the ratio of standoffs and shinwhacks (you know, when he squares up to a defender and stands there until hell freezes over, then realises the guy won't move and shoots at him). We haven't had a decent attacking rightback to play off him on the overlap and he is no right winger, that's hardly Mata's fault.
We certainly haven't failed because of Mata, he hasn't dragged us to a win too often either (doubt anyone ever thought we had bought that though). We sure can't build and plan for the future with him as a key player (mind, we never did), but he ain't the problem either.