Guardiola misjudged physicality of Premier League

[TsuWave]

Yup, enough for the manager to haul him off at half time though eh?!

That must of been dumb too.

I don’t see managers as infallible so yeah,

Toney said it was 50/50.

He didn't mention when Varane came on he barely got a kick second half.

Me: He dealt with Toney’s physicality well, even Toney said so. He’s an aggressive CB

Toney: “To be fair to him he was doing well and was very aggressive for a centre-back”

he then on to say it was 50/50 between them. I didn’t misrepresent what he said

 

[sullydnl]

The key point is what people mean by physicality.

When people say the PL is more physical I think they sometimes think of size and strength. But that isn't particularly the case, with players in a league like the Dutch league being physically taller on average.

The pace and intensity of the league is where the physicality lies. You don't need large players (in fact the best sides in the league skew smaller) but you do need pace, work-rate, aggression and endurance.

A perfect example of the sort of physicality required in the league wouldn't be a player like Chris Wood but rather a player like Bernardo Silva, who presses, harries and runs himself into the ground. Athletes in that sense.

In which case Martinez with all his aggression makes more sense as an addition than if you focus on something like height.

 

[Glorio]

You short or something? Why so touchy?

A small defender getting outmuscled in one of his first games is obviously discussion worthy. Odd reaction.

Was he though? This seems like a notion gathering pace as it's peddled by pundits and commentators based on preconceived ideas. Apart from the one goal conceded where the ball was flying around the goal posts, he hasn't been dominated aerially at all. We've had big CBs missing out and conceding before - if there wasn't this talk about his height, it wouldn't even be a factor. We'd just say he should have done better.

I'll be honest, I'm still sceptical about how he'll deal with the premier league as we go through games, and yes, that's because of his size (I won't claim to be oblivious as even I have preconceived ideas), right now though, it hasn't proven to be a notable factor.

 

[Lentwood]

I don't think he's too small. Coped fine when targeted with long balls from Brentford.

The way I see it is it's an unnecessary problem to cause yourself.

Martinez might 'do fine' in the air but he's not quick and he's not tall....so he's going to have to be one hell of an exceptional player to manage at CB in the Premier League.

Point being...why not just sign a player who is quick and tall AND can defend? We spent £55m, for that you'd expect there must have been alternatives available who more obviously tick the boxes

 

[VP89]

The way I see it is it's an unnecessary problem to cause yourself.

Martinez might 'do fine' in the air but he's not quick and he's not tall....so he's going to have to be one hell of an exceptional player to manage at CB in the Premier League.

Point being...why not just sign a player who is quick and tall AND can defend? We spent £55m, for that you'd expect there must have been alternatives available who more obviously tick the boxes

He's integral to Ten Hag's system. He is very capable of passing out from the back, has a wand of a left foot with long passes, is aggressive and proactive in getting into challenges and is nippy on the turn. Most of the center backs will have fallacies - for example Pau Torres is taller but more passive.

I'm not arguing Martinez is without weakness, but I don't think he lacks physicality. Speed sure but Ten Hag knows his system and would have planned a balance to account for it.

 

[Dr Foo]

The key point is what people mean by physicality.

When people say the PL is more physical I think they sometimes think of size and strength. But that isn't particularly the case, with players in a league like the Dutch league being physically taller on average.

The pace and intensity of the league is where the physicality lies. You don't need large players (in fact the best sides in the league skew smaller) but you do need pace, work-rate, aggression and endurance.

A perfect example of the sort of physicality required in the league wouldn't be a player like Chris Wood but rather a player like Bernardo Silva, who presses, harries and runs himself into the ground. Athletes in that sense.

In which case Martinez with all his aggression makes more sense as an addition than if you focus on something like height.

Spot on.

While we could do with a few bigger players in the spine, our players' aggression and work-rate is a joke, which exacerbates the problem hugely.

 

[Lynty]

His mistake is not the physicality.........it's misjudging the players he got, and actually seeing in real time how damaged and fragile they are when they up against any sort of pressure.

He gave them a chance, as he has no real choice as we haven't bought anyone really and have let him down.


But the flurry of links since Saturday are pointing to me he learned very quickly most of them are finished

100%

Bizarre thread, covertly bashing Martinez (whilst the other 3 defenders have been more of a problem)

 

[Lentwood]

100%

Bizarre thread, covertly bashing Martinez (whilst the other 3 defenders have been more of a problem)

It's not bashing Martinez, some people just chose to take it in that direction...Martinez is one player of many who lack one or more physical attributes. He doesn't seem to lack aggression though, personally I am more concerned about the lads who look like they're afraid, hesitant or playing half-asleep (DDG, Martial, Rashford, Sancho)

Ralf highlighted our total lack of physicality multiple times last season, there's another thread on it somewhere.

The specific references to ETH could just as easily be about selecting Ronaldo, Rashford, Sancho...Eriksen in CM...as Martinez

 

[ForeverRed1]

We let go of Pogba, Matic and Cavani. Not saying they were contributing a lot for us but it's just the way we're being run, reactive.

We didn’t actually let them go, they ran their contracts down and wanted to leave.

 

[Champ]

I don’t see managers as infallible so yeah,



Me: He dealt with Toney’s physicality well, even Toney said so. He’s an aggressive CB

Toney: “To be fair to him he was doing well and was very aggressive for a centre-back”

he then on to say it was 50/50 between them. I didn’t misrepresent what he said

Yup, 4-0 at half time, get taken off, 4-0 at full time,

Not all down to Martinez, and context is key, but he was picked on by Brentford and indeed Brighton.

 

[Smores]

Was he though? This seems like a notion gathering pace as it's peddled by pundits and commentators based on preconceived ideas. Apart from the one goal conceded where the ball was flying around the goal posts, he hasn't been dominated aerially at all. We've had big CBs missing out and conceding before - if there wasn't this talk about his height, it wouldn't even be a factor. We'd just say he should have done better.

I'll be honest, I'm still sceptical about how he'll deal with the premier league as we go through games, and yes, that's because of his size (I won't claim to be oblivious as even I have preconceived ideas), right now though, it hasn't proven to be a notable factor.

Yeah he was, same way Lindelof occasionally gets bullied too. It's funny seeing people suddenly outraged at mentioning a CB get bullied where it's been a constant discussion point about Lindelof.

Martinez will have to prove he can cope with the league same as any defender. It doesn't suddenly become irrelevant due to his height being seen as a lazy point.

 

[Sandikan]

Had to re-read this thread title for a second.
The irony is utterly daft.

Brings a tiny short player in, after thinking he can slate Guardiola for not realising you need pace and strength

Cannot make it up.

 

[TsuWave]

Yup, 4-0 at half time, get taken off, 4-0 at full time,

Not all down to Martinez, and context is key, but he was picked on by Brentford and indeed Brighton.

I think being targeted and getting picked on are two different things, but that’s my perception. He was targeted, but in my assessment, he did well. So much so his opposition said as much - so there’s corroboration even there.

 

[Flexdegea]

100%

Bizarre thread, covertly bashing Martinez (whilst the other 3 defenders have been more of a problem)

It's just lazy anyone blaming Martinez.

Neville kept pointing out his size, but wasn't his size that caused the meltdown and handing 2 goals on the plate for brentford.


Still blows my mind how much Maguire gets away with every match from pundits etc

 

[Oranges038]

I know it's a cliche, but at the end of the day when you are in the heat of the moment out there on the pitch and it's a 50/50 battle, it's really about who wants it more......

 

[Will Singh]

I think being targeted and getting picked on are two different things, but that’s my perception. He was targeted, but in my assessment, he did well. So much so his opposition said as much - so there’s corroboration even there.

Very hard to find positive’s for a defender when you lose 4-0 but yes you can tell he was targeted and did a decent job. I think ETH took him off because he could see what the opponents were doing and not because Martinez was not playing well. Let’s hold judgment till he’s had a few games under he’s belt but I think every team will target him because of he’s height so can’t see it ending well….

 

[RedOrange]

Yeah, that's the killer. Even a great manager like Pep, at a club set up to perfectly meet his needs, wasted a ton of money on players that weren't good enough. Which makes it even more worrying about the time and money ETH needs to turn things round.

Mind you, he still finished 3rd in that first season. With 78 points and 80 goals. Which would be an incredible achievement for ETH based on what we've seen so far...

Guardiola also started from day 1 with a world class squad. City immediately fecked off Joe Hart when he refused to play out from the back despite his massive wages and bought a stopgap keeper, and when he flipped they got another one. Their main weakness that year was old/slow fullbacks and lack of CB depth, which is mainly why they only finished 3rd, but they spent another £200 million the next season buying new fullbacks, another ball playing defender and a goalkeeper with world class distribution.

ETH arrived with no ball playing CB's, no midfielders who can progress the ball either by dribbling or progressive passing, no ball retention midfielders who can get or maintain possession, no forwards with the ability or inclination to press, and a goalkeeper who's petrified at the sight of the ball. He doesn't even have any squad depth in anywhere on the pitch FFS, let alone quality.

Even if the club manages to get 6-8 signings like they actually needed, the earliest one will have arrived a month after the start of training.

We'll hear a lot about ETH's mistakes in the coming months but his biggest one was trusting the club to do a competent job of getting him the players he needs.

 

[Glorio]

Analysis piece on Sky Sports:

Martinez targeted against Brentford?

1st minute – Martinez wins an unchallenged header

2nd minute – Toney misjudges a high ball but Martinez reads it well by backing off and clears

4th minute – First real evidence of Brentford goalkeeper targeting Martinez but the defender bundles Toney over off the ball and Shaw clears

4th minute – Another long ball to Toney but this time Martinez leans into him to affect the striker’s balance and the ball sails harmlessly over their heads

“It is pretty clear Lisandro Martinez is going to be targeted by every team on those diagonals,” says Gary Neville on co-commentary for Sky Sports

12th minute – Martinez grapples with Toney under a long ball and is able to collect it with his feet before sparking a counter-attack

24th minute – Toney pulls on Shaw for the second time in a matter of minutes

“Manchester United cannot win a first ball in this channel. Shaw and Martinez have got their work cut out with Mbeumo and Toney,” says Neville

30th minute – Martinez’s worst moment as he is caught under the ball near the goal-line and Mee nods home

“Martinez, 5’9”, against Mee? No chance,” says Neville

45th minute – Raya attempts one final long ball of the half but Martinez is able to allow it to run through to De Gea

That's it - anyone can get caught under the ball. There's so much noise about his height, that's at this point unfounded.

 

[Boondog]

It's just lazy anyone blaming Martinez.

Neville kept pointing out his size, but wasn't his size that caused the meltdown and handing 2 goals on the plate for brentford.


Still blows my mind how much Maguire gets away with every match from pundits etc

Yes and the goal Martinez gave up in the air was in large part due to him not playing the ball. He's going to be fantastic for us. I'm eager to see him and Varane out there together for a stretch of games somewhere down the road when they figure out what to do with Maguire.

Where we could use more size is up front too. Our forwards are very non-menacing.