I dont think there is anyone here who has read the Ops fully.
Green_Smiley VS Joga Bonito- All time 3 year peak - Auction Draft
- Thread starter Skizzo
- Start date
I dont think there is anyone here who has read the Ops fully.
Yeah, fair enough. You can vote though without reading the write-up fully but just the parts which you need clarification or have doubts about. Have PM-ed Skizzo to spoiler most of it so that people can choose what they want to read instead of facing a wall of text.
I always do! I did put it off for a while though as I wanted to be able to read it before I commented.@Joga Bonito
I can see the argument for Law as an inside right but wouldn't that have been in a 3-2-5 with a proper winger?
I can see the argument for Law as an inside right but wouldn't that have been in a 3-2-5 with a proper winger?
Aye, he didn't provide much width and nor do I expect him to. With Bossis playing as a supporting wing-back and Neeskens gravitating towards the right flank as he sees fit, I'd say the wingsmanship aspect of the right flank is more than covered. Law himself was comfortable on both flank/channels during games (like the Tottenham match I posted in the link) and wasn't a rigid striker who strictly stuck to the centre.
With Cruyff roaming around in a free role and Rivaldo being a creative inside left, I needed an incisive player who frequently makes runs inward. In fact Rep played the exact same role and barely provided much, if any, width and focussed more on getting into the box at the right moments, moving right into the space vacated by Cruyff. More like a 'wide' hardworking poacher of sorts but Law can be a more talented all-round player reprising that role and that is exactly what he did for United, being involved from deeper and always timed his runs to perfection. Never affected his goalscoring potential at all and made use of his complete game much more.
I love the man to bits, and defensively he's absolute class but with the task of keeping track of one of the greatest wing-men to have played the game, this really is asking an awful lot out of him.
Not any less than asking Gerson to keep up with Neekens or Lothar. Bossis is defensively as solid as they come and had brilliant composure to ideally limit the impact of Dzajc's dribbling skills. Don't think it's asking an awful lot by any means and he was excellent defensively.
Indeed, I have little concern with him at the back there, my point was with regards to him covering the width on that flank, as composed and elegant he was with the ball and wasn't afraid to humiliate people coming his way, he's got enough tactical awareness and intelligence to spare that for a game with less pressure on him at the back, not here.
Lineup - MJJ
Versus - Aldo
I guess you can say it's similar to this that you yourself have played and I'm playing Bossis as the supporting wing-back here. He isn't going to be bombing all the way up to the byline before whipping in a cross but can do so in a more reserved manner and play crosses from deep or utilize his passing range more. Besides Neeskens and Law are at ease on the right flank as well - both defensively and offensively- so it isn't just Bossis single-handedly dealing with Dzajic in addition to providing width as well.
Bossis here is facing Brehme-Dzajic granted, but he has Neeskens and Law for support here too, not Essien and Weah.
@Joga Bonito
UPdated OP with new formation/sub.
Keane - Out
Varela - In
And spoilered the rest of the info for you. Does that look ok?
UPdated OP with new formation/sub.
Keane - Out
Varela - In
And spoilered the rest of the info for you. Does that look ok?
Yeah looks good, thanks.
Mmm.. few differences there, and if you are indeed using him like I was then you won't get much of width from him. So yeah, the differences - Ronaldo should be on the right in that picture, if that doesn't make a difference in how he operated. Free role, so there is a player who is a genuine wide player as opposed to Law. Weah was the reference up front, Ronaldo swapped sides around him depending on where the space and/or need is to be, Irwin from the left bombed forward, and Bossis tucked in to make it a three where Bossis and Montero are at home playing that CB-FB hybrid on either side. Plus as you said it was Barnes not Dragan Dzajic and Essien's top notch in defending wide areas. In any case it's not that Bossis will not provide any width - probably just me but lately there's a bit of pedantry creeping into these discussions - but it won't simply be a constant source of stretching play, no matter what.Lineup - MJJ
Versus - Aldo
I guess you can say it's similar to this that you yourself have played and I'm playing Bossis as the supporting wing-back here. He isn't going to be bombing all the way up to the byline before whipping in a cross but can do so in a more reserved manner and play crosses from deep or utilize his passing range more. Besides Neeskens and Law are at ease on the right flank as well - both defensively and offensively- so it isn't just Bossis single-handedly dealing with Dzajic in addition to providing width as well.
Bossis here is facing Brehme-Dzajic granted, but he has Neeskens and Law for support here too, not Essien and Weah.
I'd probably have gone with a different setting with your defense, played Nasazzi on the right side and Bossis on Scirea's left, with a similar mechanic on Nilton going forward and combining with Rivaldo.
At the end neither my side nor yours has quality width on both sides, best accept it and play to your strengths and bank on it rather than trying to cover up the weaknesses.
Agree on all counts. Its a very interesting set up, and I reckon there are enough precedents to make it feasible. The Gerson point is an interesting one - I said ages ago in another draft thread that from what I'd watched I had some doubts as to how well Didi would maintain his peak form against a post Total-Football, hard-pressing midfield, and those doubts are replicated and more with Gerson.
To be honest, there's also an element of boredom which makes me want to believe in Joga's midfield here - the way midfields are expected to be crafted in the drafts seems to me to becoming bit formulaic.
Seems a good compromise to me.
I disagree - this has been a fine thread in its entirety, but Joga casting more light on how Law actually played has been the highlight. He's done a terrific job. My concern with his frontline actually lays with Rivaldo, who seems to have do have performed best off a more traditional striker (Kluivert/Sonny Anderson for Barca, Ronaldo for Brazil). I'm very open to correction on this though @Joga Bonito , especially after the slaughtering our attack got in our last match
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Without the GIFs, I would have surpassed Joga in word counts
Personally, I think Gerson is not an issue. The biggest concern I have is actually on Charles. I mentioned in the draft thread that I couldn't find a full match of him, so I had to imagine how he would defend based on snippet of videos. My impression is that he is great against a traditional centre forward, but not against a tricky or mobile player like Maradona or Cryuff. It would have been better if I have a proven man-marker like Vierchowod, Gentile or Kohler, so that my CB can mark Cryuff when he is close to the box, and Rijkaard to mark him when he plays deeper
Just had a quick look through at that thread and didn't quite get the same impression, anyway that is largely irrelevant to this match, so will leave it at that.
Of course, that's why I claimed he will be a supporting wing-back who will make runs forward, but just not to the same extent as N.Santos. It is slightly lop-sided with most of the service and wingsmanship coming from Santos and Rivaldo, think Krol-Keizer, with the other flank playing a supporting role with Bossis and Law. Doesn't mean there will be a lack of width or lack of stretching of play as you make it out to be. Most certainly not from a right side featuring Bossis-Neeskens-Law. Simply put, all three had immense workrate and were capable of tracking all the way back to their own box if needed and were capable of providing wingsmanship too, more of 'false' width with Law tbf, just like Rep.
Don't quite think that's optimal as I'd much rather not let it be overly lopsided and give Brehme-Dzajic too much freedom.
Of all the parallels there, the one missing is Bossis and Suurbier - two very different kind of fullbacks, both offensively and defensively.
As for this, whichever way you set up, the flank is going to trouble you, and any other flank you can think of, there isn't much that can be done about it, in very simple words.
Well of course, but like I've said with Neeskens and Law there Bossis doesn't need to be rampaging all the way up the field to provide width or stretching of play. He can do so from a supporting role alone. You are underestimating the impact of Neeskens playing a supporting role on the right channels/flanks and Law's ability in providing 'false width' and decoy runs.
. I can see what Balu was talking about when he was mentioning about the pedantry concerning width before Dzajic and Brehme - there's very little you can do with that thrown at you.
Let's clear up something, 'supporting' - long as we agree on the definition - is not going to be enough here.
You've got Law tracking Brehme if need be (nothing out of the ordinary, just what he always loved to do), Neeskens helping out as he sees fit as a RCM and Bossis there?? There is nothing more that needs to be done...
Nah, it is more than enough for me. I've got one of the best RCMs in history who'd even played as a RB in an European Cup final and loved drifting to the right hand channels/flanks and could provide quality service. Law who was at ease on both flanks/channels and didn't mind drifting there to provide 'false' width if need be (watch the Tottenham vs United 2nd half on youtube if you can). I've got another cultured RB who didn't exactly need to venture all the way up the field to muck up a cross like Suurbier but could play a supporting role alone with two excellent players on his side. So yes, a supporting role is more than enough here.
Anyway, I guess we will have to agree to disagree here as we are miles apart from how we are viewing it at the moment.
A little advice if you go forward - Gentile isn't loved on cafe, his man-marking (a.k.a. killing) style isn't "modern" enough. He isn't a good fit for Moore anyway - they will struggle with aerial threat.
Although Skizzo and I have played Charles at centre back ourselves, I said this afterwards and in an all-time draft I wonder even more about it:
I do wonder how he'd be remembered, if at all, if he'd never played in attack, and I find it hard to accept him as an all-time great centre back in this company TBH.
Have to go and probably won't be back after the end of the game. Regardless of the outcome, great game @green_smiley
Voted for Joga, barring any late arguments in this thread. Green Smiley drafted a terrific, very well-constructed team that would have been brilliant against most other formations that we typically see here, but Cruyff as False 9 seemed to hit upon a weakness. I've also stated my doubts about Charles at CB.
I love what Joga's done with Law, rated his 3 CM idea although I dislike the sub accordingly, and am willing to disregrd my Rivaldo criticism for now. All that said, the current scoreline seems reasonable to me too - this isn't one of those where I wonder what the feck is wrong with the voters, more a close match where I know I'm backing the guy with the tactics that require the bigger leap of faith to believe in.
I love what Joga's done with Law, rated his 3 CM idea although I dislike the sub accordingly, and am willing to disregrd my Rivaldo criticism for now. All that said, the current scoreline seems reasonable to me too - this isn't one of those where I wonder what the feck is wrong with the voters, more a close match where I know I'm backing the guy with the tactics that require the bigger leap of faith to believe in.
Think the midfield/defence sync works better now, which was what I found flawed. Still not sold on Rivaldo, or Bossis providing width (seems to me he has his hands full).
That said, Cruyff will have a stormer here, and Neeskens is utterly free. I wonder why GS didn't protect that side better. Gerson-Dzajic flank will be targeted, while Rijkaard-Littbarski looks safe as houses. Why not swap Gerson and Rijkaard so Litti provides some support?
Will sleep (and may well oversleep) on it.
That said, Cruyff will have a stormer here, and Neeskens is utterly free. I wonder why GS didn't protect that side better. Gerson-Dzajic flank will be targeted, while Rijkaard-Littbarski looks safe as houses. Why not swap Gerson and Rijkaard so Litti provides some support?
Will sleep (and may well oversleep) on it.
Littbarski has to watch out on D. Santos and Rijkaard is closing down on Cryuff
Unless Littbarski switches to defending against Matthaus, and have Di Stefano helping out Gerson. Santos may have more freedom overlapping, but he will have to be wary of counter as Rivaldo will not track back often
Change defending tactics
Di Stefano helping out on the left side of midfield, supporting Dzajic/Gerson. Littbarski to move to RCM position for zonal defending against Matthaus and/or Santos
Di Stefano helping out on the left side of midfield, supporting Dzajic/Gerson. Littbarski to move to RCM position for zonal defending against Matthaus and/or Santos
That's quite a lot to ask from him don't you think? If Rijkaard is preoccupied with Cruyff, and Zanetti is with Rivaldo, while there's still a option of both Matthaus and Santons move forward - I would be quite happy with that flank if I were @Joga Bonito
Change defending tactics
Di Stefano helping out on the left side of midfield, supporting Dzajic/Gerson. Littbarski to move to RCM position for zonal defending against Matthaus and/or Santos
I can't see Litti doing such an immense defensive job and it opens up space for N.Santos/Lothar to make his runs forward. It is the kind of job you might saddle on an accomplished midfielder like Neesken or Rijkaard, not a winger with good work rate but not that much defensive nous.
Not much choice when Gerson and Charles are seen as defensive liability
Law out wide does not make a lot of sense to me. It's very close, but I've voted GS because I think his front line is more balanced.
*I'll happily withdraw my vote if it can be explained to me -- I've always viewed/considered Law to be an out-and-out centre forward.
*I'll happily withdraw my vote if it can be explained to me -- I've always viewed/considered Law to be an out-and-out centre forward.
Going for GS. Brilliantly crafted side with Di Stefano in his best position with Dzajic causing mayhem and Muller putting the chances away.
It was very close though. Joga convinced me his right side would work although the Rivaldo without a CF and up against Zanetti could well be a weak link. Before Keane was benched I wondered how he'd work with Matthaus on a personality basis and also how he'd fair in a total football system as he was at his best when he was the main man in midfield- this was the problem with him and Veron although you could argue playing Veron as a DLP limited his game
GS is just overall a more cohesive unit.
It was very close though. Joga convinced me his right side would work although the Rivaldo without a CF and up against Zanetti could well be a weak link. Before Keane was benched I wondered how he'd work with Matthaus on a personality basis and also how he'd fair in a total football system as he was at his best when he was the main man in midfield- this was the problem with him and Veron although you could argue playing Veron as a DLP limited his game
GS is just overall a more cohesive unit.
Not convinced by Joga's attack in terms of compatibility. . Personally I always think Rivaldo operates best as a 10, in this side he is very much needed to provide width because the entire side is stacked with central players. Even Denis Law loved to drop deep and get ball to feet. It is not a cohesive attacking unit.
I rate GS midfield higher because Di Stefano and Rijkaard match GOAT quality with brilliant tactical reading of the game.. I personally think they're more likely to keep the ball and control proceedings but they will struggle in that regard as their opponent has Cruyff Rivaldo helping out the midfield. However Littbarski and Dzajic can stretch the game making it easier for their midfield to spread the play when under pressure.
Tbh in reality I think this is a draw as I rate JBs defence to put in a decent shift here but GS gets my vote for looking cohesive from 1-11.
I rate GS midfield higher because Di Stefano and Rijkaard match GOAT quality with brilliant tactical reading of the game.. I personally think they're more likely to keep the ball and control proceedings but they will struggle in that regard as their opponent has Cruyff Rivaldo helping out the midfield. However Littbarski and Dzajic can stretch the game making it easier for their midfield to spread the play when under pressure.
Tbh in reality I think this is a draw as I rate JBs defence to put in a decent shift here but GS gets my vote for looking cohesive from 1-11.
@Joga Bonito great game. Partly is because of how your team set up that exposes my team weak points. Still, it irks me that Gerson is seen as defensively-weak, a misconception that strength always surpasses elegance, a reason why DLP like Pirlo is never being fully appreciated especially in draft. In actual fact, how many bad games did Pirlo play when he was in his prime? Did he has any trouble when someone from opposition try to close him down? I see the only way you can negate his influence is by having a player dedicated to hound him from start till finish like Park
I will be looking for a CB to replace Charles in next round. Still going to play Gerson despite the challenge
I will be looking for a CB to replace Charles in next round. Still going to play Gerson despite the challenge
You too mate. Good luck for the future rounds.
What were your plans moving forward?
Getting a wing-forward to replace Rivaldo and a RWB to replace Bossis or a CB to replace Nasazzi.