Messi’s peak is the highest peak in football history surely? 91 goals in a year while also being the best dribbler on the planet and one of the best passers of a ball. Say what you want about the quality of team around him, those numbers are a joke in any league or era. He wasn’t even a tap in merchant either. He got some, as you’d have to in order to hit those numbers but a lot of those 91 are brilliant solo goals that most players couldn’t do once a season let alone dozens of times.
Greatest player of all time (Forget longevity)
- Thread starter JSArsenal
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I’m not talking about Yannick Bolasie. Ronaldinho was devastating. Football was different pre Messi and Ronaldo. These two took goals stats to absurd numbers. Ronaldinho was as scary as anyone when he got the ball during his peak.
The biggest difference between Ronaldinho and Messi is that Ronaldinho walked into a shit show and helped revitalize the club, whereas Messi's peak coincided with the club's highest peak, of which was built around him.
For 2 or 3 years or so he was the scariest, so I agree with you. If we remove longevity he should be really high up on an all-time list.
Just gonna throw my favourite player ever into the mix, Kaka 2005-2008.
Ronaldinho influenced a whole generation , being born in 1994 Ronaldinho was the man growing up so many people became Barcelona supporters just because of that guy.
Messi is still the greatest to be honest just an incredible player he’s that guy that teams change their tactics for and put 3 players on thats a testament to his greatness.
Messi is still the greatest to be honest just an incredible player he’s that guy that teams change their tactics for and put 3 players on thats a testament to his greatness.
Davids helped a lot too. I agree though, Barca were a shambles at that point
Amazing players but what did any of those 3 players do at their peak that Messi didnt ( probably multiple times)?
My favorite player ever to watch, pure artist with the ball.
Would probably say Messi during his peak Barca years is probably the BOAT
I have never seen a player look so far above everybody else on a pitch as pre injury R9. Speed, strength, skill, finishing, he looked like he was an adult joining a kids game.
I only saw the old, washed up Maradona but his peak is surely at the top of the list.
I only saw the old, washed up Maradona but his peak is surely at the top of the list.
Messi is up there, also peak for peak Maradona probably ranks higher as the best ever with Messi following shortly thereafter.
(I'm excluding pele here)
Messi. Always Messi.
Luis Ronaldo (R9)
Messi
Maradona
Ronaldinho
Messi
Maradona
Ronaldinho
This along with a handful of other top tier CBs that had sustained periods of top excellence in the past 25 years - Nesta and Maldini for starters. Vaguely recall Samuel came to Roma and they won the league immediately. Then there are the usual suspects in Rio, Vidic, Terry, etc.
That functional midfield wouldn't have been possible without Firmino. That midfield wouldn't work without his creativity in playing the false 9 and pressing. Firmino and VVD had a greater impact than the midfield.
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Add Zidane in there and I agree with you
Goalie - Goram 92- 96
Right back - Danny whenever he played
Henrik - 01-04 ( easily up there)
I love Stam and once again, I’d have no arguments with anyone arguing that he was a better player. But the protection you get from Neville / Irwin as your FBs is light years ahead of Robertson / Alexander-Arnold. van Dijk virtually operated as a one-man defence for a couple of years and he’s the only player I’ve seen do that. Which to me fits the premise of the thread.
VVD was made to look better because of the system Klopp used. For Holland he was average in that period.
Also, I have a theory about Ronaldinho. He would also make my list and I think it’s because his peak coincided with the time in my life when I was most interested in football. The peak of my fandom, you could say. I think that might be the same for many posters on here.
Ronaldinho made me want to watch whatever game he was playing in. I honestly couldn’t care less what his goal tally for the season was.
Ronaldinho made me want to watch whatever game he was playing in. I honestly couldn’t care less what his goal tally for the season was.
This was Ronaldinho against a peak Terry and Carvalho, a peak Petr cech under a prime Jose Mourinho. How do you even score a goal like that?
Against a prime Milan consisting of peak Nesta, Maldini and Gattuso. Made a fool of them.
Unstoppable that guy was. Literally unstoppable.
And de Bruyne just looked average as hell for Belgium. I think being misused by your national team Coach says more about their skills than it does the player.
Anyway, it’s obvious that a United forum is not the best place for me to make this argument so I’ll bow out here.
Beckenbauer 1972-1975
Platini 1982-1985
Maradona 1984-1987
John Barnes 1986-1989
Zidane 2000-2003
Henry 2003-2006
Messi 2009-2012
Salah 2018-2021
Platini 1982-1985
Maradona 1984-1987
John Barnes 1986-1989
Zidane 2000-2003
Henry 2003-2006
Messi 2009-2012
Salah 2018-2021
So Salah is there but no Ronaldinho. Right
There was that game where José's Chelsea almost succeeded in shackling him, only for him to work himself a sniff of space in the final minutes - I just knew they were getting punished, he did some shimmy and promptly sent a radar guided ball to the corner of the back of the net!
Ronaldinho or Messi for me, unable to decide
I remember that game. It was at Camp Nou.
Was that when he flattened Terry?
Same here but Italians kept messi quiet for many years. Chelsea kept messi quiet for many years. But I can’t think of one team or even a defender that kept Ronaldinho tame and we are talking about a great era of defenders in the game during his time. So that edges it for me.
Maldini in his prime (which was long but still) was insane. And I don't think many really appreciate how good Paul Ince was in his prime. The problem was that his prime was short - from finally reaching his potential to becoming a bit full of himself and not doing the dirty work. But for 15-18 months - Ince was insanely good.
I forgot about him and R9. They should definitely be in the list. (Maybe Nedved too)
Good shout.
I didn't get to see much of United pre-1996 but from what I have seen through old footage, Ince carried the midfield in 94-95 with various injuries, the Kanchelskis mob stuff going on, and Keane playing out of position often.
Far from the best but stam was a cracking player for us during his stay here.
So I guess you could rank him higher than those 2 peak wise based on how reliant their team was on them, still the likes of baresi and Beckenbauer eclipse that in my opinion (barrssi's insane 1992 season where they left an untouched defensive record and Beckenbauer's 1974 season are stuff of legends) but you did admit to not having watched them so fair enough .
You make a defensive point about him being more of an one man show during that period compared to Nesta and Ferdinand as both had WC partners so I'll give you that
So I guess you could rank him higher than those 2 peak wise based on how reliant their team was on them, still the likes of baresi and Beckenbauer eclipse that in my opinion (barrssi's insane 1992 season where they left an untouched defensive record and Beckenbauer's 1974 season are stuff of legends) but you did admit to not having watched them so fair enough .
Don’t think it really changes the top 3 of Pele, Maradona and Messi. But Ronaldo probably joins them in a four, while Ronaldinho jumps up from a top 20-40 player of all time into the top 10. Those are the two whose post-prime careers are clearly a couple of steps below what came before.
no mention of best who's best days had been long gone by the time we our first European cup?
I say he'll jump up to top 10 as well.
I always loved that first goal. Top footballers's intelligence and wit always impresses more than their skill, which is easier to notice, but probably not what differentiates them ultimately. The goal is nothing special technically, but you can almost feel the "eureka" on his head when he sees the opening for the shot.
That goal is incredibly technically, I’ve barely seen a similar once since, incredibly hard to pull off.
For me I am looking at this (from an attacking player perspective) - who was unplayable i.e. unmarkable?
Zidane (2000-2001), Kaka (2005-2007), Rivaldo (99) R9 (96-98), Ronaldinho (03-05), Messi (08-12) = unmarkable during this phase of their careers. Messi it felt like an entire team had to be set up in order to shut him down. As much as I loved Cristiano during 2006-08, I never felt like he gave me unmarkable vibes.
Midfield wise, I am going Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets (2008-2012) and Modric during the peak Real Madrid years.
Aside from those recent ones in my lifetime, historically... Maradona, Best, Pele, Cruyff, Beckenbauer in particular looked unplayable when in the mood.
Zidane (2000-2001), Kaka (2005-2007), Rivaldo (99) R9 (96-98), Ronaldinho (03-05), Messi (08-12) = unmarkable during this phase of their careers. Messi it felt like an entire team had to be set up in order to shut him down. As much as I loved Cristiano during 2006-08, I never felt like he gave me unmarkable vibes.
Midfield wise, I am going Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets (2008-2012) and Modric during the peak Real Madrid years.
Aside from those recent ones in my lifetime, historically... Maradona, Best, Pele, Cruyff, Beckenbauer in particular looked unplayable when in the mood.
I understand your point of view, and it's hard, I just think the hard part is not the the technique, although it will probably depend on our definition. I just saw two very simple foot feints and a well placed shot. Unorthodox due to the lack of momentum, but not a strong shot either, I think any footballer can theoretically pull those moves (unlike some of Ronaldinho's other tricks, dribbles, shots, etc) it's just that it's the kind of thing you expect to see in a group of friends playing beach soccer, not a packed CL stadium against some of the best footballers of the world.
I'm being pedantic, as I equally admire the goal, just more focused on his bright and creative mind rather than his elastico levels of trickery, which he didn't need here.