You mean you don't think
Ooba doopa you're a looper
scuba di-ving, uber driver
I got a screw dr-iver
Got my feet wet, in a tool kit
Gonna stick a night stick in your uter-us bitch
Isn't dope?
Music Greatest living rapper?
- Thread starter Pickle85
- Start date
You mean you don't think
Ooba doopa you're a looper
scuba di-ving, uber driver
I got a screw dr-iver
Got my feet wet, in a tool kit
Gonna stick a night stick in your uter-us bitch
Isn't dope?
Em just ran out of things to rap about. When he does have something he's still a great
Not the greatest but among them for me.
Not the greatest but among them for me.
chuck in a few homophobic slurs and you have yourself a hit my man.Reggie, Jay-Z, Tupac and Biggie,
Andre from Outkast, Jada Kurupt, Nas and then me.
I actually agree and like Redman the most
Andre from Outkast, Jada Kurupt, Nas and then me.
I actually agree and like Redman the most
Cant belive more people not mentioning Snoop. Longevity, influence, sales, originality ect ect. He has ment more for hip hop than so many others.
Harry Mack
He's absolutely legit as a battle rapper, it's just a shame that he never really chose to take on anything deeper than his shitty upbringing and ex wife hatred
A huge figure for the culture, for sure, but purely as a lyricist he's not in the conversation for me.
I agree on that 100%.
So greatest lyricist : Snoop not there.
Greatest rapper : Snoop absolutley is there.
Edit : even if the thread was ”best rapper” Snoop is not there. But he embodies greatness in hip hop.
Matter of taste I guess. I'm not really into later deep rap because it all felt superficial to me after some time (just personal taste). I still like stuff like Jeru the Damaja or thoughtful songs by Lords of the Underground but nowadays it often feels like people want to be seen as deep so they make a song that's deep. On a different note given the amount of thought, passion and skill that goes into making anything artistic of value I don't blame people for only being capable of making 1, 2 or 3 proper great albums in a lifetime. LL and Nas are the only ones who really kept up with the times over decades and even they had their ups and downs.
I truly believe Illmatic is so great because he was working on it in his head from junior highschool until it's release.
Pac should be in this conversation if the rumours are true
eminem
Jay-Z
Kanye
50 Cent
Lil Wayne
this 5 blends talent with record sales. As far as mainstream lyricism (I said mainstream)
Nas
Jadakiss
Lloyd Banks
Juelz Santana
Cam’Ron
Jay-Z
Kanye
50 Cent
Lil Wayne
this 5 blends talent with record sales. As far as mainstream lyricism (I said mainstream)
Nas
Jadakiss
Lloyd Banks
Juelz Santana
Cam’Ron
On pure rapping alone (lyricism, delivery, storytelling) and ignoring record sales or influence or whatever, these are my favourites
Nas
Ghostface Killah
Killer Mike
Aesop Rock
5th place would usually be DOOM, but he's not longer with us, so it could be any of GZA, Raekwon or Deck.
Nas
Ghostface Killah
Killer Mike
Aesop Rock
5th place would usually be DOOM, but he's not longer with us, so it could be any of GZA, Raekwon or Deck.
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Why? He fits every criteria that usually measured to asses GOAT. Skill, longevity, relevance, influence, album sales etc. Jay Z has genuinely one of the best hip hop discography ever imo.Nas
So glad no ones mentioned Jay Z yet
1. Jay
2. Nas
3. Snoop
4. Wayne
5. Kendrick/Cole
Is Bubba Sparxx still alive?
Because I don't care for him much. Just personal taste. I don't think there's any scientific method of deducing the answer so everyone just has their opinion. Anyone who likes him is absolutely entitled to their own.
(Also he sucks).
Future
Big Boi
Lil Wayne
Bun B
2 Pac
In no particular order
Big Boi
Lil Wayne
Bun B
2 Pac
In no particular order
I'm in awe at the ability of a lot of rappers and can understand why some would claim them no. 1. However, for me, Eminem is hands down no.1. The guy is an absolute genius. I was listening to Stan on the radio the other day and it still hits hard, that's got to be the best rap song of all time and it's not even my favourite (because of the nature of it). It's like a movie playing in your head when you listen to it though, it's more than a music track.
I could go on about Eminem, but he's the best for me.
I could go on about Eminem, but he's the best for me.
I listened to a great debate on the radio about this, but how good an actual rapper was Tupac really? I'd never even questioned it, but when I heard the arguments I kind of agreed in terms of his delivery etc. Everything else was top notch, character, message, intelligence/rap IQ... He had it. But in terms of rapping, he's actually not near the top. Perhaps what he did have is enough to carry him into this equation though.
He'd be my number 2 probably. Longevity is worth a lot in this debate and Nas definitely has it. However, Eminem not only stayed at the top of rap but also took over the mainstream too. He's got longevity with a relevance that I feel like Nas, dare I say it, lost for some people and the younger audience. I've never stopped listening to and appreciating Nas, but I feel like Em has bridged generations better than anybody else.
I'll split my long answer:
1. 2Pac was a great rapper, in terms of rapping. His magnum opus for me is Me Against The World, where he's not preoccupied with a Death Row sized chip over his shoulder or paranoia about his soon demise. He's just rapping over muted chilled production. You can't hide your technical rapping ability on those kind of beats; if you're subpar on the mic it shows. And 2Pac could do it all. Alliteration, double entendres, vocabulary (no he does not rhyme enemies with Hennessy on every line)... He was respected amongst his peers as excellent on the mic at that time (which was a high point for emphasis on lyricism in the music, even on the West Coast).
2. Here is what a lot of people don't get about rapping. Look, 2Pac can't "rap" as well as Eminem or Canibus or Black Thought. But he's a better rapper than all those 3 because hip-hop isn't just about technical ability or how many syllables you can fit in a sentence or how many words you know. You hint at it but I'll say it outright, emotion, the ability to hit people in the feels through your lyrics... That's a big part of rapping that a lot of us dusty backpackers forget when bringing up the likes of Black Thought and co. They are great technical rappers for sure. But if rapping was all about technical ability then the greatest rappers are probably on the Smack URL channel (that's battle rap FYI). It's not just message. Immortal Technique will go on and on about the govt and conspiracies and fecking mothers and eventually you just lose me like, what the feck are you talking about? Why should I care?
To answer your question, I'd argue that 2Pac is one of the greatest rappers ever (like, top 5 status) because while he was great at the technical fundamentals of rapping (rhyming and alliteration and "oooh you hear what he said" moments), he was even better at the application of that skillset to make timeless music that resonated (and still does resonate) with people, some of who honestly don't give a feck about that "lyrical miracle" shit the way we do and sometimes overvalue. There are very few rappers who exceed him in both areas. Dead or alive.
Lyricism is important but I feel we still hold it a bit too highly. There’s a lot of lyrical rappers who I think are poor artists and would rather listen to some mumble shite rapper over them
That's true to a degree, otherwise, people would be mentioning the Freestyle Fellowship boys or Xclan here. Aceyalone, Myka 9, PEACE could rock a freestyle cipher way beyond anything 2Pac was capable of. But, for me, 2Pac never really put it all together the way Rakim, Guru, or Nas did. He could never move me, personally, the way those three could, or the way Wu-Tang or Digable as a group could in their peak. And really I don't think Pac contributed to the culture the way someone like KRS One did or going back further, Kurtis Blow and Grandmaster Flash. It could just be personal preference, I never though Pac or Biggie were all that. Neither ever did much for me.
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Can't argue with this
Not to be rude, but how much Black Thought have you listened to? His music is very political and regularly has strong social messaging. I'd argue that the songs that people often point to as Pac being a ghetto reporter/social justice advocate flatten and oversimplify what's at stake massively. Brenda's Got a Baby is a great example. Tupac is overrated imo because of the mystique surrounding his death.
Nas is the greatest, but Ice Cube is my favourite.
Top 5 still alive, in my opinion, would be;
1. Nas
2. Rakim
3. Ice Cube
4. Jay Z
5. Eminem
To be fair, it is extremely tough, because how are we defining greatness? Most gifted lyricist? Longevity? Influence?
The greatest in regards to influence, would look something like this in my opinion;
1. Rakim
2. KRS-One
3. Big Daddy Kane
4. Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five (have to include them as a group)
5. Ice T
Top 5 still alive, in my opinion, would be;
1. Nas
2. Rakim
3. Ice Cube
4. Jay Z
5. Eminem
To be fair, it is extremely tough, because how are we defining greatness? Most gifted lyricist? Longevity? Influence?
The greatest in regards to influence, would look something like this in my opinion;
1. Rakim
2. KRS-One
3. Big Daddy Kane
4. Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five (have to include them as a group)
5. Ice T
In regards to what he has done for hip hop, he is probably not even in the top 20 artists to be honest.
Easy, Carlton Douglas Ridenhour.
Apart from MF Doom, I don’t think I’ve seen anyone make the over 40 rapper look work. There’s just something inherently funny and silly about a middle age man still rapping.
Eminem is the classic case, incredibly skilled but….he’s a 50 year bloke doing this
So yeah the answer is someone like Kendrick Lamar.
Eminem is the classic case, incredibly skilled but….he’s a 50 year bloke doing this
So yeah the answer is someone like Kendrick Lamar.
No offense taken.
I love Black Thought. Illadelph Halflife is my favorite Roots album. I still play that freestyle every now and then.
But... no I'd argue Thought's content didn't start getting political until later in his career. He didn't speak much about much until Phrenology (Malik B's departure due to drugs), or How I Got Over (murder of his parents). Until then, he obviously was a very accomplished rapper who no one wanted to see in a cypher, but he didn't have that wide pull before Things Fall Apart, and that was more of a whole collective thing with the Roots and the Soulquarians and their hit single with Erykah Badu... And if I think about it, my attraction to the Roots albums was part Thought, part Malik B, and part Questlove/the band. I'd say it's later on that Thought started being the main pull on the album.
Back to 2Pac. See I didn't mention Brenda's Gọt A Baby in my original post? That's the lazy one people go for. And early in his career, while showing flashes of his true talent, his first 3 albums were decent yet a bit all over the place. He always had a heart and was always a street poet but between the production and his rapping there was something missing.
Until Me Against the World. If you've not listened to it back to back, I'd say give it a listen. So Many Tears. Old School. Dear Mama. The title track. Death Around the Corner. And so on. It's like hip-hop had a baby with the blues. And that's when 2Pac merged brilliant rapping with his ability to use that to make you feel and relate.
And his music captured a lot of the social angst at the time. Hopelessness of the ghetto. Thrills and pain of gang life. Paranoia of an early death as a young black man. The ever lurking presence of the police.
Yes I know it's not just about sales, and yes, a lot of trash sells. He had both critical and commercial acclaim though. Which speaks to the quality of the music AND the reach.
Fair play, maybe I do need to give Me Against The World another listen. Heading to the gym so shall give it a spin there!
Guru? Guru????
I'll give you Nas, absolutely. I'll plead no contest on Rakim, I don't listen to him even though I acknowledge his place in the pantheon. God MC and all.
Guru though?
Ok so as good as Guru was, he has 2 things against him
1. His monotone style is an acquired taste (which I enjoy but we're in the minority aren't we)
2. On comparison with 2Pac, let's be honest... no. First of all, the star on Daily Operation, Hard to Earn and Step in the Arena was DJ Premier. It wasn't until Moment of Truth that Guru became Premier's equal on the album. Like, you know how when the beat for NY State of Mind, or Nas Is Like or I Gave You Power (all Premier beats) comes on and Nas eviscerates it. Guru... rarely did that. He complimented the beat well, did well enough to keep up, but rarely did I think, "oh shit". It made for good/great albums... But Moment of Truth was when Guru came into his own (You Know My Steez, JFK to LAX, Above the Clouds, My Advice to You).
And even then, apart from personal preference which is fine, Guru vs 2Pac is not a contest at all
And on 2Pac not contributing to the culture... What?? Do you know how many people worldwide listen to him today? How many murals he has on multiple continents? How many rappers he influenced? What culture are you speaking of (apart of this dusty backpacker clan we are in where Digable Planets has more cache than 2Pac??)
feck Eminem.
Living? Then Eminem circa early 00s. If not him then Nas for sure. Kendrick is the only one that has come close to those two for me.
Nas, most of Wu or Rakim.
Only Ghostface has a serious claim.
Pure emcee standpoint and lyrics, GZA and Deck are unbeleivable, give me their content over the likes of Jay Z any day.
3 Stacks
Nas
Royce da 5'9
Black Thought.
El-P
Nas
Royce da 5'9
Black Thought.
El-P
Bringing up DJ Premier is a fair point for sure. He's in the conversation for greatest hip-hop producer of all time absolutely. But I don't think that is a negative for Guru, for me at least. Complimenting the beat is part of it IMO otherwise it comes down to more technical ability and freestyle skills if we take the beat out. Making those great albums is a big part of it and Guru did that solo too with Jazzmatazz which I used to listen to over and over with friends back in 94. I could never get into 2Pac the same way. The beats on his albums never did much for me and I had that reaction you had to Guru to 2Pac, I never heard 2Pac rapping and thought "oh, shit" although admittedly his style just isn't what does it for me. I could appreciate some of the topics he would rap about but I never wanted to listen to his albums the way I would with Gangstarr (and all the other names I've mentioned). When I was in a mood for hip-hop, I never think let's turn on a 2Pac album the way I do with pretty much everyone else I mention and many more. I also wouldn't say hip-hop is my favorite music so it's definitely mood based; I just don't ever reach for 2Pac over dozens of others. I should say as a dancer, the beat to a hip-hop song matters a lot to me so while I know its outside of the question of rapper, without a beat I can get down to, I'm less likely to like the song personally.
For culture, it's not just the "dusty backpacker clans" but other types of hip-hop heads I've met over the decades where I just never heard 2Pac brought up as a big influence outside of the fact that he was murdered. It's not that he didn't contribute to the culture just that he wasn't on the level of someone like KRS-One or Rakim or others. There were the more freestyle/cipher types that would always talk about Freestyle Fellowship and Project Blowed rappers like Busdriver as massive influences, then there were heads I met from rougher neighborhoods that always looked at more g-funk stylists as influences like Dj Quik and Too Short (this was before drill was ever a thing) then the "dusty backpackers" who love El-P, and Aesop Rock. Most of those different groups would also recognize Rakim, KRS-One, Kurtis Blow, Wu-Tang, Digable, Xclan, Nas as big influences. My friends more into mainstream hip-hop would add NWA, Eminem. But I just never heard much about 2Pac being a big influence myself outside the dual murders of him and Biggie (another one who never really did it for me).
I gotta post this song here too, one of my favorite hip-hop songs of all time that really highlights the culture as a whole:
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