German football is turd

Is the pl and oil money really much worse than being 10% owned by Adidas and their notorious hr record in Indonesia, philippines and China or their part in the €109m unpaid to Cambodian workers just last year. Or the many sweatshop scandals.

"Football belongs to the people" read the banner, just not the people who work for Adidas and can't afford to eat nevermind buy a ball.

Without a hint of irony too.
 
The Bundesliga is a strange league - I understand why it is uncompetitive in a broader European sense but how come one club dominates in a country that is famous for a federal, non-centralised structure with many big cities? Why are Hamburg, Berlin, Düsseldorf, Stuttgart etc perennial losers?
 
padr81 said:
Is the pl and oil money really much worse than being 10% owned by Adidas and their notorious hr record in Indonesia, philippines and China or their part in the €109m unpaid to Cambodian workers just last year. Or the many sweatshop scandals.

"Football belongs to the people" read the banner, just not the people who work for Adidas and can't afford to eat nevermind buy a ball.

Without a hint of irony too.
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PL no.
Dead dinosaur juice money belonging to state owned enterprises yes. Worse.
One can always boycott Adidas and get them to change their policies actions in a way which is simply impossible when it's a nation state with a seat in the UN.
 
MoskvaRed said:
The Bundesliga is a strange league - I understand why it is uncompetitive in a broader European sense but how come one club dominates in a country that is famous for a federal, non-centralised structure with many big cities? Why are Hamburg, Berlin, Düsseldorf, Stuttgart etc perennial losers?
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I would say exactly because of this. None of these are really pulling a lot of weight in the region around it (Hamburg probably the most of your examples), but have to deal with a lot of other clubs.

Also being owned by the fans (actually being a club in the original sense of the word) is not a recipe for great leadership and management, but makes them susceptible for populism and irrational decisions.

Some clubs were able to build stable structures that fully leverage the economic potential of their region (Bayern, Freiburg for example), but most simply didn't.
 
MoskvaRed said:
The Bundesliga is a strange league - I understand why it is uncompetitive in a broader European sense but how come one club dominates in a country that is famous for a federal, non-centralised structure with many big cities? Why are Hamburg, Berlin, Düsseldorf, Stuttgart etc perennial losers?
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Personal opinion: perhaps because German culture is uniform. Everyone doing pretty much same thing so there is no way to overtaking someone who break ahead. Italy, Spain, England regions have more distinguishable cultural difference which give birth to rivalries.

German clubs have Red Bull, Bayer, Volkswagen, Audi Allianz, Audi... as the backbone of their clubs. The local sense may not be as strong because companies try to play peacefully in sport, lest ruining their customer friendly commercial image nationwide and internationalwide.
 
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I’ll not get into the whole “German football is turd” debate, that’s hyperbolic and disrespectful. It’s true that at the very top it lacks competitiveness. What I will get into is the competitiveness of the premier league. For all the discussion of it being dominated by oil money, and there’s no doubt Man City are the dominant team, the PL is still a league that is ultra competitive and doesn’t just reward the money bags clubs.

We’ve had Leicester win it in the last decade. In fact in the last decade we’ve had United (just!), City, Liverpool, Chelsea, and Leicester win it. That’s 5 different clubs. Currently we have Arsenal sitting top, City - an oil club - second (probably favourites though), United - a legacy giant - in third. Then vying for fourth you’ve got newbie oil club Newcastle, Tottenham, Aston Villa and Brighton. Brighton being a model of smart data driven, cost effective, performance. Liverpool, who won a title two years ago, have been successful by (a) spending a lot but within their own generated means, and (b) smart data driven recruitment, sitting in 8th. Chelsea, who’ve spent a fortune, sitting in 11th (two of the historical big 4).

Every league is predictable in some sense. The teams with the most resources generally do better than the teams with less. But within that paradigm, the PL, due to its fairly equitable division of wealth from TV rights etc, is incredibly competitive.

The competitiveness of the league, the quality that’s there from top to almost bottom, makes the league harder than any other domestic competition in the world. Bayern, the Spanish duo etc, still have the luxury of resting key players in the league, so they are fresh for European competitions. That’s something English clubs just can’t do anymore. A top four team Can easily lose to a midtable or relegation team if they rest key starters, with a regularity and predictability that isn’t seen elsewhere. And it’s a symptom of “smaller” PL clubs not only having the resources to be able to hang onto their best players, but also attract players from much larger clubs in Europe.

It’s the strength and weakness of the league. It’s what makes the PL so competitive but also what takes away a vital competitive edge in Europe. You can’t have it both ways.

The PL product is the envy of the world, and rightly so. It’s fast paced, it’s entertaining and it’s high quality. People point to “higher quality” games in Spain for example, but the games are played at such a slower pace, of course there are less mistakes and forced errors. That doesn’t make it higher quality.

The danger of the PL, is that we as clubs and fans might disappear up our own arses championing the brilliance of the league.
 
ti vu said:
Personal opinion: perhaps because German culture is uniform. Everyone doing pretty much same thing so there is no way to overtaking someone who break ahead. Italy, Spain, England regions have more distinguishable cultural difference which give birth to rivalries.

German clubs have Red Bull, Bayer, Volkswagen, Audi Allianz, Audi... as the backbone of their clubs. The local sense may not be as strong because companies try to play peacefully in sport, lest ruining their customer friendly commercial image nationwide and internationalwide.
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I’d say Germany has more marked regional differences than England owing to its late unification (same for Italy). There are no real dialects in England (just accents) but by the time you have encountered Bavarian, Swabian, Plattdeutsch ((let alone Austrian and Swiss German), you start to wonder who exactly speaks”German”.

i suppose the answer is more prosaic in that Bayern have had constant Champions League money for nearly 30 years. Although, if you equate them with United (in a world without Abramovich or Abu Dhabi), it still doesn’t explain the lack of a Liverpool or Arsenal equivalent.
 
RoyH1 said:
PL no.
Dead dinosaur juice money belonging to state owned enterprises yes. Worse.
One can always boycott Adidas and get them to change their policies actions in a way which is simply impossible when it's a nation state with a seat in the UN.
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Agree to an extent but it's a little hypocritical to have issue with 1 and not the other.

Personally I'd be for both, gear suppliers get in line or banned and states get out.
 
simonhch said:
I’ll not get into the whole “German football is turd” debate, that’s hyperbolic and disrespectful. It’s true that at the very top it lacks competitiveness. What I will get into is the competitiveness of the premier league. For all the discussion of it being dominated by oil money, and there’s no doubt Man City are the dominant team, the PL is still a league that is ultra competitive and doesn’t just reward the money bags clubs.

We’ve had Leicester win it in the last decade. In fact in the last decade we’ve had United (just!), City, Liverpool, Chelsea, and Leicester win it. That’s 5 different clubs. Currently we have Arsenal sitting top, City - an oil club - second (probably favourites though), United - a legacy giant - in third. Then vying for fourth you’ve got newbie oil club Newcastle, Tottenham, Aston Villa and Brighton. Brighton being a model of smart data driven, cost effective, performance. Liverpool, who won a title two years ago, have been successful by (a) spending a lot but within their own generated means, and (b) smart data driven recruitment, sitting in 8th. Chelsea, who’ve spent a fortune, sitting in 11th (two of the historical big 4).

Every league is predictable in some sense. The teams with the most resources generally do better than the teams with less. But within that paradigm, the PL, due to its fairly equitable division of wealth from TV rights etc, is incredibly competitive.
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Well unfortunately the data doesn't back up your claim, or at least only parts of it.
You say the PL is ultra competitive but a quick glance at who has played in the CL since 2010 shows us the usual suspects over and over again - United, City, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal, Tottenham plus that one crazy year when Leicester made it. If you compare that to the Bundesliga in the time span, it's way more unpredictable. Yes, there's always Bayern and Dortmund makes it most of the time, but then there's also Leipzig, Leverkusen, Frankfurt, Hoffenheim, Gladbach, Schalke, Wolfsburg, Bremen who all got to enjoy a few Champions League games during those years.
So the main difference would be that the PL has had a lot of different winners recently. Looking at the past 6 years though City has actually been more dominant than Bayern in league games, with 2.4 to 2.31 points per match. The only difference in that time span is that Liverpool somehow found a way to be even more dominant in 19/20 which is not exactly a sign that the rest of the league is overly competitive.
So the Bundesliga's problem might not be the difference in quality between Bayern and mid-table clubs, but rather the lack of another truly dominant foe....yes, this is the part where we all point fingers at Dortmund.
 
simonhch said:
The competitiveness of the league, the quality that’s there from top to almost bottom, makes the league harder than any other domestic competition in the world. Bayern, the Spanish duo etc, still have the luxury of resting key players in the league, so they are fresh for European competitions. That’s something English clubs just can’t do anymore. A top four team Can easily lose to a midtable or relegation team if they rest key starters, with a regularity and predictability that isn’t seen elsewhere.
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Top 4 teams lose points against midtable/relegation teams all the time in Spain, Italy and Germany, with pretty much the same frequency they do in England. Those teams aren't any more capable of resting key players than their english counterparts

It’s the strength and weakness of the league. It’s what makes the PL so competitive but also what takes away a vital competitive edge in Europe. You can’t have it both ways.
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So how come english teams have largely dominated in europe over the last 5 seasons?:confused::confused:
 
uamini said:
Well unfortunately the data doesn't back up your claim, or at least only parts of it.
You say the PL is ultra competitive but a quick glance at who has played in the CL since 2010 shows us the usual suspects over and over again - United, City, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal, Tottenham plus that one crazy year when Leicester made it. If you compare that to the Bundesliga in the time span, it's way more unpredictable. Yes, there's always Bayern and Dortmund makes it most of the time, but then there's also Leipzig, Leverkusen, Frankfurt, Hoffenheim, Gladbach, Schalke, Wolfsburg, Bremen who all got to enjoy a few Champions League games during those years.
So the main difference would be that the PL has had a lot of different winners recently. Looking at the past 6 years though City has actually been more dominant than Bayern in league games, with 2.4 to 2.31 points per match. The only difference in that time span is that Liverpool somehow found a way to be even more dominant in 19/20 which is not exactly a sign that the rest of the league is overly competitive.
So the Bundesliga's problem might not be the difference in quality between Bayern and mid-table clubs, but rather the lack of another truly dominant foe....yes, this is the part where we all point fingers at Dortmund.
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City have had an all-time great in charge though (with massive funding of course). With Bayern, you get the impression that it’s harder not to win the league, irrespective of the manager.
 
Take away the oligarch money of Chelsea and City and lets see how many PL titles Man Utd would have won since 2000
giorno said:
Top 4 teams lose points against midtable/relegation teams all the time in Spain, Italy and Germany, with pretty much the same frequency they do in England. Those teams aren't any more capable of resting key players than their english counterparts
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Its funny how PL fans try to claim this unpredictability when it happens in every league

Possible points in the EPL is 114, Since 2016/17 of 6 PL winners, 5 of them have made 91points which is 80% of total points possible
Possible points in Bundesliga is 102, Since 2016/17 of 6 winners, the league winner have made 81 points(80% of total points possible) 3 times

This season its impossible for Bayern to make 81 points
While its possible for Arsenal and/or City to make it
 
kaiser1 said:
Take away the oligarch money of Chelsea and City and lets see how many PL titles Man Utd would have won since 2000

Its funny how PL fans try to claim this unpredictability when it happens in every league

Possible points in the EPL is 114, Since 2016/17 of 6 PL winners, 5 of them have made 91points which is 80% of total points possible
Possible points in Bundesliga is 102, Since 2016/17 of 6 winners, the league winner have made 81 points(80% of total points possible) 3 times

This season its impossible for Bayern to make 81 points
While its possible for Arsenal and/or City to make it
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We have not won a title (or even been close) since Ferguson retired. Being hamstrung with a huge amount of debt meant that only a truly great manager could win and, even then, most of the main players were bought pre-Glazers. With Bayern, I get the impression that they could appoint Donald Duck and still win.
 
MoskvaRed said:
We have not won a title (or even been close) since Ferguson retired. Being hamstrung with a huge amount of debt meant that only a truly great manager could win and, even then, most of the main players were bought pre-Glazers. With Bayern, I get the impression that they could appoint Donald Duck and still win.
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Mourinho and Ole finished 2nd behind Petrodollars Citeh. Ole is worse than any manager Bayern has ever contracted and he could have won the league if City wasn't there
 
kaiser1 said:
Mourinho and Ole finished 2nd behind Petrodollars Citeh. Ole is worse than any manager Bayern has ever contracted and he could have won the league if City wasn't there
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Mourinho was still decent at United. Ole was hopeless but benefited from the Covid season (lots of away wins) plus Liverpool having a relapse.
 
At least they had a close race. Our league will be worse soon enough if City's antics continue to go unchecked.
 
MoskvaRed said:
The Bundesliga is a strange league - I understand why it is uncompetitive in a broader European sense but how come one club dominates in a country that is famous for a federal, non-centralised structure with many big cities? Why are Hamburg, Berlin, Düsseldorf, Stuttgart etc perennial losers?
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The main reason is that especially the big clubs attract a lot of people in leading positions who have had economic success in other areas of business and think that makes them supremely qualified to run a football club. Newsflash it doesn't, and thus these clubs are usually dominated by infights, leadership changing faster than the English prime minister general chaos on all fronts. Schalke, HSV, Hertha, Hannover and Stuttgart got all ruined by it and have a hard time getting back on their feet now.
 
kaiser1 said:
Mourinho and Ole finished 2nd behind Petrodollars Citeh. Ole is worse than any manager Bayern has ever contracted and he could have won the league if City wasn't there
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Take away all other 19 clubs and we’ll be champions and relegated in the same season.
 
Von Mistelroum said:
At least they had a close race. Our league will be worse soon enough if City's antics continue to go unchecked.
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But off the top of my head this is literally only the 3rd time that Bayern have been pushed close during the past 11 seasons (after 2015/2016 and 2018/2019). City have at least faced genuine title challenges during 3 out of their 5 winning seasons under Guardiola.

And Bayern had already won 13 more titles than the next placed team before this sequence of 11 in a row (and counting) started. If it was Cologne, Eintracht Frankfurt etc. winning 11 titles in a row, that would still be very bad, but not as bad as this given that it would at least be a different team dominating the league.
 
Entertaining finish to the season.
But then the reality of one team winning for 11 years in a row kicks in.

Unless City get their just desserts, our league can and is going the same way.
 
cyberman said:
Last season not count?
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I said soon though, not yet but this current iteration of their team will keep being added to with more and more talent via underhand payments until nobody can compete. They're likely to dominate for years if allowed to continue this way.
 
I think everybody who defends this league isn't completely honest to himself. I mean, I'll keep watching it because my team plays in it and many people I know will as well but let's not kid ourselves, it sucks.

People try to be positive and point to Union and Freiburg as great stories but they are where they are because many 'top' teams underperformed - and those top teams aren't even internationally competitive when at their best, let alone this
 
In some of the previous seasons I didn't complain much because Bayern were probably the best team in the world and would have probably done the same in any other league. However, even in a horrible season like this one they still won in the end.
 
Zehner said:
I think everybody who defends this league isn't completely honest to himself. I mean, I'll keep watching it because my team plays in it and many people I know will as well but let's not kid ourselves, it sucks.

People try to be positive and point to Union and Freiburg as great stories but they are where they are because many 'top' teams underperformed - and those top teams aren't even internationally competitive when at their best, let alone this
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German clubs won 2 european trophies in the last 3 years, we reached the semifinal of the Europea League this season. Thats enough "international competitiveness" for me, not everyone can be the Premier League with their sheikh owners.
 
This must be a terrible title for Bayern. I dare say, fans might have been happy to concede one to spice up the league a bit.

As it turns out, even at their worst, they couldn’t give it away. It’s a really sad indictment of the league and a clear sign that something needs to be done.

It’s a dead league as it stands and this season has exposed just how bad the situation is.
 
Maluco said:
This must be a terrible title for Bayern. I dare say, fans might have been happy to concede one to spice up the league a bit.

As it turns out, even at their worst, they couldn’t give it away. It’s a really sad indictment of the league and a clear sign that something needs to be done.

It’s a dead league as it stands and this season has exposed just how bad the situation is.
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What do you mean? It is fecking hilarious. :lol:
 
Acrobat7 said:
What do you mean? It is fecking hilarious. :lol:
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It just can’t feel good. Tripping over the line because of the complete ineptitude of the second best team in the country.

Obviously, a title is a title, but this one has been won in the worst possible way. It’s a massive blow for the Bundesliga too. It’s hard to imagine any international fans investing in the league in its current form.

This season has exposed what we already knew, but there is no hiding how much change is needed anymore.
 
Maluco said:
It’s a dead league as it stands and this season has exposed just how bad the situation is.
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I just don't get why people call it a dead league. Yes, it definitely is an issue that Bayern always win the title, but there is so much nore ongoing than just the title race. And there has been a lot of life in the CL, EL and relegation race this season.
 
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