We did win the Europa league even in our lowest period in ages. When did Dortmund last win anything in Europe?
I mean as a Bayern fan you may not care about the league being uncompetitive as feck but it is extremely sad and a waste of potential.
German football is turd
- Thread starter TwoSheds
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I mean as a Bayern fan you may not care about the league being uncompetitive as feck but it is extremely sad and a waste of potential.
They're now third in UEFA coefficient for the season, behind Italy by a small margin. PL is way ahead, and Spain way behind(fewer games from the spanish sides so far as well though, but with betis and real sociedad likely going out they'll be left with 2 teams most likely, vs 5 PL sides, probably 6 Italian sides and 2 or 3 for the bundes)
I didnt say Dortmund were the better team in the first leg. But they were completely toothless in the 2nd game without Adeyemi and Brandt and it still took some very questionable referee decisions for Chelsea to go through.
Obviously the league could be more exciting but why do you keep talking about a waste of potential?
Would a new german champion suddenly gain hundreds of millions to compete with the european financial powerhouses?
And how exciting were the Bundesliga teams on an international level during 2003 and 2010 when we had 5 different league winners (Bayern, Dortmund, Werder Bremen, Stuttgart, Wolfsburg)?
How much joy do Bayern fans get out of winning the league every season? It's not like there's ever really a title race to speak of.
I have no idea about this, but one of my first ever games at OT was against Bayer Leverkusen in 2002/03 and it was incredible. The Bayer team from back then had some major players - Butt, Lucio, Ballack, Schneider, Ze Roberto, Berbatov.
I see everything in here is going the usual way, carry on. If you must.
Rest assured, it beats not winning every single time. We are living your dream, mate, and it's awesome.
Losing 7-0 to a PL team just shows how bad the Bundesliga is, because that would never happen to another PL team. 
Bragging about your league is such a weird thing to do. You have more money then all other leagues combined, how impressive. Everyone knows the Dutch invented football and all other countries are just trying to emulate us.
My dream is very much not to win the PL unopposed every season. I enjoy sport for the essence of competition, not to win every time.
For balance from another Bayern Munich fan;
Opinion: Is it fun to support a team that always wins?
Bayern Munich’s domestic dominance is impressive, but is it fun for the supporter?
https://www.bavarianfootballworks.c...tiveness-dortmund-leverkusen-champions-league
Actually I don't think that the teams are performing bad relative to their financial capacities. The Bundesliga had a strong phase because many clubs were ahead of their time tactically, especially compared to the EPL. That edge is gone so it is only down to individual quality and in that regard they are exactly where they should be. Yesterday was a bit of a freak result, same way Bayern used to bully Arsenal.
I think people underestimate the financial gap between German and English clubs. Leipzig's record transfer is €29m. Peanuts for even midfield EPL clubs.
Ah, and on a sidenote, I believe that many clubs have gone from pretty innovative and ahead of their time to a bit behind their time. If you see Napoli for instance, German teams don't even try to implement such a dominant style. It's always pressing, transition and very vertical. Not ambitious enough in my opinion. Bayern is the only team in the league that really plays possession football and that's by now the most competitive school of of football.
I get that impression as well, in fact I think Union's current success has a lot to do with the rest of the Bundesliga being stuck in "vanilla" Gegenpressing.
People comparing leagues where clubs like Nottingham spend 100M+ on transfers, while their equivalents in any other league would proably only spend 2 to 10M, though.
IMO it is much more of a failure that english teams are not winning UCL almost every season.
IMO it is much more of a failure that english teams are not winning UCL almost every season.
They will do very soon (allowing for variance created by knockout format obviously)
We've seen Juventus and Barcelona getting into huge financial trouble trying to keep up with the Premier League. Wait until Newcastle get going under the Saudi's and United get proper owners, the gap will continue to widen
Now this is where the compliemnts will come. Despite all the money, english clubs are still decenly managed by their directors when compared to other european giants.
Barcelona makes as much money as EPL clubs (if not more), but they are so poorly managed and with the higher levels of corruption on spanish football, a lot of shady transfer money was splashed. They clearly had no reason to be at this position with all the money the club generates.
Juventus for different reasons: they had more than enough money to build a fantastic squad but they became envious and tried to build a super squad and ruining their stable finances.
I have to say that I enjoy watching many Bundesliga games, and indeed Bundesliga 2 matches.
I often find them more entertaining than quite a few PL games, though the end of the film might be already known, it doesnt mean that there cant be good scenes throughout the film.
I often find them more entertaining than quite a few PL games, though the end of the film might be already known, it doesnt mean that there cant be good scenes throughout the film.
Dortmund doesn't get many chances to win the Europa League because they don't play in it all that often. They play the Champions League and usually make it out of the group stages.
They played 3 times in the last 8 years.
I don't enjoy the Bundesliga anymore, even worse in my opinion is that the football discussions in Germany are completely wrong. For some historic reasons (tiki taka, Gegenpressing etc.) everything goes around tactics and positioning without ever mentioning the players abilities. When somebody like Musiala rocks the Bundesliga its seen as some kind of unexplanable wonder, even though the kid has high individual skill in regards of dribbling and game sense.
No European silverware then
I don’t think everything is about international level. I’m a big advocate of the impotence of domestic leagues rather than this obsession with the CL. Maybe my post came off as if I was bashing the Bundesliga but it’s more to do with wanting more competitive leagues that draw more eyeballs. Whatever happened in the past an unpredictable league would create more interest imo. I’d certainly be more interesting in following it. I’m sure it’s the same for many others.
For Europe until the entire league has cash influx you can either have one Bundesliga challenger from the league leaving the rest of it subservient to it (current situation) or a more level playing field with no one by default super teams but a few quite good ones who would have to work hard at being excellent. The latter seems more interesting to me as a neutral. Bayern having a chance in Europe but the rest just making up numbers both domestically and in Europe isn’t as good.Imo at least
Bayern have won two CL titles in the ten year league title domination and Frankfurt won the EL last season so there is that going for it. A problem for the Bundesliga is that no top managers or players go there from other leagues unless it is to Bayern or internally. Klopp and Tuchel both left. Pep went but he went to Bayern etc. Compare that to the PL and you see ‘top’ players going to clubs like West Ham and the like.
The top clubs don’t have the financial pull or muscle that PL clubs so it’s not worth the risk for them.
The top clubs don’t have the financial pull or muscle that PL clubs so it’s not worth the risk for them.
I think that's wrong. People embrace individual talent but it doesn't happen at expense of the tactical side. The issie is rather that fans and coaches are fairly stuck in the past. A coach who plays possession football has it much more difficult than a coach who plays the standard gegenpressing tactics. I guess the idea of the "deutsche Tugenden" as in working hard, running a lot, etc. are still prevalent in the perception of most people over here, kind of like how the average EPL fan still prefers kick'n'rush over a more sophisticated ('boring') style. And that's also reflected in the perception of top players who are quickly labelled as lazy or lacking the necessary attitude.
Yeah I think we have different opinions here. I would rate individual skill higher then tactics, for the reason that a team like Real Madrid has won the CL so many times in the recent past by relying on their individual players. Players like Salah, MBappe, Lewandowski etc. are the game changers in my opinion, but I respect your opinion nonetheless of course. In my opinion playing possession football in Germany is very difficult, because it depends on having players with, again, individual skill, which the Bundesliga lacks.
I think it's a bit more complicated. Many of the greatest individual performances we've seen in the past happened on the basis of a very sophisticated and well organized team. I don't think Madrid is a counter example to that - they aren't a selection of individuals but have many players which work as a collective, especially Modric and Kroos. On the contrary, we've seen many clearly brillant individuals completely lost when their team is dominated by a better collective consisting of inferior individuals, PSG being the prime example of that. United for example bet for years on individual talent and see where it got them. Ten Hag now is a break of the rule and suddenly they're heading somewhere again.
Moreover, I believe the Bundesliga produces brillant individuals. The issue is rather that there's no continuity and the teams fall apart sooner than later which again is down to financial weakness.
Plus the idea that you need brillant footballers for possession oriented styles is wrong, IMO. See Napoli for example. That's not a crazily expensive or even talented side in many positions, they just know what to do and how to play their role.
All City scorers all left from the Bundesliga. Its hard for a team to progress when their best players are taken every season Like Pulisic Auba Sancho Haaland soon will be Belingham.
Well, it is what is. To break the Bayern monopoly you either need some Petrol State Fund or a bored dork like Boehly. And neither would fly here in Germany, as 50+1 is very much enshrined into our fan culture. Because, truth is that the average fan of Köln, Werder, Eintracht, etc cares the most about retaining football as an affordable experience for everyone here in the country, and not so much about an hypothetical oil-backed club being able to make a serious title challenge.
Folks here have very much seen how the average fan got priced out of the stadiums over there in England, thanks to exciting investors and "Sugar Daddy" owners, and unsurprisingly object against these concepts.
This is, of course, a very German view, and might clash with that of yours, somebody with no particular connection to our country or league who will naturally judge the quality of the league from a different angle, where the number of possible title contenders weighs in heavier, while things like ticket prices do not play a role at all.
So, until Dortmund get their act together for continued period of time, we are "stuck" with a league where Bayern wins every year, and that can yet still boast about the highest stadium attendances in Europe.
Sorry this argument doesn't stick because Leipzig every season has a habit of shifting heavy defeat. Last season they also shifted 3 goals to City on the group stage (scored 3 though).
Also Marcus Rose teams had shown he set them up to be soft bellied, too. It has the recipe for disaster. It's a bad habit now than just freak result. When it rain, it pours for this Leipzig team.
And yes our record against Liverpool is a bad habit needed to be addressed too. It's no longer a freak result when conceding 4+ goals in most of recent meetings.
During the ESL fiasco, EPL fans were hailing Bundesliga as the right way to play the game
A couple of results from the same oil backed Oligarchs, its back to bragging about how poor this well run Bundesliga is vs the same oil oligarchs where 1 club can outspend 3 top leagues in 1 season
I can imagine that if Bayern win the title 20 times in a row or something they'll change things. 10 is still not a lot and you can sort of rationalize it.
Leipzig will probably also lose some of their best players to the PL in the next couple of years, if they don't join Bayern they join a PL team.
I'm not sure they can change that much, maybe share the TV money more evenly, but the deal for the Bundesliga teams isn't as bad as it is in Spain. Bayern's big advantage is their individual sponsorship deals and they keep getting the bigger sponsors because they keep winning stuff and as we've talked about in this thread it's no longer just Bayern that the up and coming teams in the Bundesliga are getting farmed by pretty much half the PL as well.
With the Premier League, while you have one and two horse races like other leagues, importantly (IMO) there is at least a bit more variation in terms of the identity of the horses.
Before their current sequence of 10 consecutive titles in a row and counting started, Bayern had already won 13 more league titles than the next team in the historical rankings. Had it been Dortmund, Eintracht Frankfurt, Koln etc., winning 10 consecutive titles and counting, at least there would be more ‘novelty’ there. But the fact that Bayern were already by far the most successful team in Germany before their Bundesliga death grip started, makes it more tedious IMO.
Juve had already won way more Serie A titles than anyone else before their sequence of 9 in a row started from 2011/2012, and finally at long last this season, the title will be won by a team outside the traditional big 3 for the first time in 22 years.
By the end of this season, exactly two thirds of historical La Liga titles (60 out of 90) will have been won by either Real or Barca. And the 2 titles not won by either side in the past 19 seasons, were won by the team that was already in 3rd place in the historical rankings.
Before their current sequence of 10 consecutive titles in a row and counting started, Bayern had already won 13 more league titles than the next team in the historical rankings. Had it been Dortmund, Eintracht Frankfurt, Koln etc., winning 10 consecutive titles and counting, at least there would be more ‘novelty’ there. But the fact that Bayern were already by far the most successful team in Germany before their Bundesliga death grip started, makes it more tedious IMO.
Juve had already won way more Serie A titles than anyone else before their sequence of 9 in a row started from 2011/2012, and finally at long last this season, the title will be won by a team outside the traditional big 3 for the first time in 22 years.
By the end of this season, exactly two thirds of historical La Liga titles (60 out of 90) will have been won by either Real or Barca. And the 2 titles not won by either side in the past 19 seasons, were won by the team that was already in 3rd place in the historical rankings.
Given how much money the Premier League has compared to other countries I would say we are the ones massively underperforming. We should be dominating the European Cups by now, and that means winning them year on year. So far English clubs make finals but can’t get over the line.
I like German teams because one of them knocked out Barcelona last year.
The two things can exist at once. I am massively jealous of how German football is structured with regards to ownership and making sure fans remain at the heart of the game. If I lived in Germany, I'd get involved with whichever team was local to me. At the same time, the actual competition of the Bundesliga is completely buggered at the moment. The same team has won it eleven years in a row, largely unopposed. As amazing as the ownership model for German football is, we all watch sport for the essence of competition. And as wrong as a culture of petro state owned clubs is, it undeniably does provide an amazing sporting spectacle. If the Bundesliga could make winning the competition more interesting and varied, it'd be the best 'product' on the market.
Aha so you are one of those playoffs guys. So instead of finding a way to make BL teams stronger lets make the BL more interesting by weaking Bayern and make the winning the title as a one off game instead of continuing form and success. While we are at it we should change the name to Bundes cup instead of league.
The reality is simple. Money talks SAF was whining about seria a success in early 2000s before Abramowich back then seria a had the money with Berlusconi. EPL was United and Arsenal and only United had some euro success. Then Abramowich came and now all those investors and is game over for other leagues.
BL will either evolve (get rid of the 50+1 rule and let some serious investors like in the epl invest heavily and build atleast another team in a level near bayern) or become simply a training center for the EPL. Even Bayern wont be able to keep up in 5-10 years.
People whining how Bayern buys BL talent but City beat Leipzig by goals scored by former BL players.
Next on the menu Belingham,Mouani, Nkunku, Gvardiol alll will join the EPL. The BL teams will find other talents will improve them and then the same will happen again in the future.
Like i said training center for the epl. When players come to your club with the attitude to get minutes improve get on the map and leave for the Epl you understand the level.
If BL had atleast another team as strong as Bayern or on a similar level that will buy players and not just sell them for profit the BL can become much interesting for tv money sponsors etc. This is actually what happened to the EPL after Abramowich bought Chelsea and heavily invested
Give a possible way that can make what you want to happen in the Buli.
Bayern hardly lose its best player while by this summer Bellingham and Nkunku possibly Gvadiol are leaving the 2 teams closest to giving Bayern a challenge. So how do you expect Dortmund and Leipzig to compete next season. City has Gundogan Akanji Haaland and KdB from the Bundesliga. Possibly Dortmund could have won the league this season with Haaland instead of Modeste/Haller.
EPL is outspending the rest of Europe using some of these oil money you hate. Chelsea is spending more than 3 leagues combined and you think there is a way around it. The only reason Madrid and Barca have remained competitive is because they take an unfair share of the TV money
In Europe the clubs that can match Bayern are the traditional clubs which were already rich by the 90s or oligarch clubs which I suppose you despise
There are 2 ways to make the German league more competitive
1 Strengthening others clubs to the level of Bayern. By taking Oligarch money which you preach against
2. To weaken Bayern to the level of the teams below them and become another Belgian league which you enjoy the competition?
No club can build organically to overtake Bayern as it is. Just like Chelsea Man City (who have won 7 of the last 9 EPL titles) needed oligarch funds to move from midtable teams. Best you can do is to get a great group of players and a good coach. who will be taken apart by the next summer.
I've been thinking a lot about this lately. Although I'm principally against 50 + 1 and think it is to blame for Bayern's dominance since it makes it impossible to catch up to them economically, I see the arguments for it as well. It really sucks that you can't root for your favorite players in world football anymore without a bad aftertaste since they play for a club that's backed by a regime with questionable ethics to say the least.
But there's no easy path out of it for the league. The obvious solution would be to enable Bundesliga clubs to compete financially but this is impossible with 50 + 1 in place. Not even Bayern can do that because most of these clubs don't have to be profitable. Still it important to further improve on the commercial side of football, like e. g. Frankfurt is currently doing. But this could also mean a new scheduling of games, etc. Fans should be made aware that this is a bitter pill they have to swallow if the league shall not become completely irrelevant.
Second, I feel that this insane transfer fee inflation we've been witnessing in the last 5 - 10 years can also be a chance since prices of other markets aren't growing at the same rate. For instance, imagine you plan to build a new training facility for the youth teams, employ new coaches etc. Maybe such a project has doubled its necessary expenditures over the last 10 years but at the same time the prices at which you can sell your greatest prospect has increased thrice. This really shouldn't be underrated, especially since some top clubs such as Bayern or until recently Liverpool signed so many players on a free transfer as well. It's absolutely insane that for instance Chelsea bought Hazard for €100+m when he only had one year left on his contract.
I believe this is the strategy most clubs outside the EPL should pursue. Don't partake in the insanity and price inflation but instead capitalize by investing the money long term. It should be about optimizing the development of young talents. If you think it through, there are 20 EPL clubs plus PSG, Bayern, Madrid, Barca and maybe Juventus. That makes roughly 25 clubs able to pay astronomical salaries. Assuming all of them pay around 20 well earning players, that means roughly 500 high paid jobs in European football. If the other leagues produce so much talent that the amount of top players exceeds their demand, smaller clubs will be able to retain some very good players again. And if they don't buy them back for crazy sums and salaries, the insane money the top clubs spend will be redistributed down the pyramid again.
That's the chance I see for football right now. We're already beginning to witness it in a few positions. Kvarathskelia for instance is an insane talent but most top clubs have no vacancies in his position. Sancho was a similar case with only United being interested in him despite his great performances. Of course clubs will make room for such players but that also means somebody plays and has to find a new club.
So in essence, take the money from the top clubs, invest it wisely in persisting assets such as knowldege, processes and infrastructure that generate revenues and player quality sustainably, flood the market with top players and stop doing crazy things to enforce short term success - leave that to the clubs that have money to waste anway. A bit similar to the idea that when your country doesn't have natural resources, your natural resource has to be the brains of your citizens/education.