German Football 2024/25

[stefan92]

A mess in size not anywhere comparable to United

I think it's quite similar

and a much easier job as the balance of team quality and expectations is much more favourable

it really isn't. Both clubs have similar expectations and are lingering in similar situations currently. And they are deservedly their as both squads just are in a bad shape.

The air is nowhere near as thin in Dortmund and the squad, while in need of quality investment, is at least very coachable.

Is it? I've seen very little that would support your statement.

I just don't understand the managerial hiring policy of BVB, they seem intent on systematically destroying their brand of football.

On this I agree.

 

[FortunaUtd]

I think it's quite similar

it really isn't. Both clubs have similar expectations and are lingering in similar situations currently. And they are deservedly their as both squads just are in a bad shape.

Is it? I've seen very little that would support your statement.

On this I agree.

Apologies but that's ridiculous. The expectations at Man United are to reach a point of winning the PL and become a top 5 club in world football again.
The expectations at BVB are to qualify for Champions League in a league that barely has 4 CL level teams for 4 spots, and then win against Gladbach, that's about it.

 

[hasanejaz88]

They would be right. Kimmich is a great player in many aspects but he slows the game down irretrievably for a team that needs quick ball movement to break down defenses. Every touch he has takes 1-2 seconds too long.
It might look like a masterclass against Bremen when the whole game is slow as a tortoise but against top opponents it means Bayern become completely toothless and uncreative with him pulling the strings. And then they get countered because he is as slow to react in defensive transitions as he is on the ball.

He is like Thiago after 5 beers and a Schweinebraten.

So Bayern have never done well against top opponents since Kimmich played in midfield? This argument is always circular because I'll note done a bunch of games against good opponents but then people will bring arguments about how those teams aren't 'big'. It's funny that the thing to focus your criticism on him on is that Bayern become uncreative with him when he probably creates the most chances of deep midfielders in Europe, he consistently comes up in the top percentiles for chance creation (outside of his set-pieces).

One thing I can accept criticism in is his defense, where his lack of speed and overeagerness to go forward can harm the team when defending counter attacks. I don't think it was as much of a problem before, probably till 22-23, even with Goretzka as both could rotate positions but has been since Goretzka lost his legs. That's less of an issue with Pavlovic, who likes to sit deep more than Kimmich/Goretzka.

Thiago used to be criticized for the exact same thing, not being assertive enough in big games. Bayern didn't win anything with him as well until right at the end of his time there.

 

[G3079]

Apologies but that's ridiculous. The expectations at Man United are to reach a point of winning the PL and become a top 5 club in world football again.
The expectations at BVB are to qualify for Champions League in a league that barely has 4 CL level teams for 4 spots, and then win against Gladbach, that's about it.

I feel like you're putting an expectation for United that is very much on the high end of the spectrum against one for Dortmund which is on the lower end for them. A similarly high-running expectation for Dortmund would sound more amongst the line of "be indisputable #2 in the league with a good chance of challenging for the title, reliably reach the Ro16 in the CL and have at least a decent outsider's chance of making final, maybe even winning the thing".

A more... realistic expectation for both clubs in the medium term is pretty similar, I'd say: reliably establish oneself in the direct CL qualification spots, have a shot for the title if maybe the stars align just right, regularly make it into at least the knock-out phase if not direct qualification to Ro16 in the CL.

 

[stefan92]

I feel like you're putting an expectation for United that is very much on the high end of the spectrum against one for Dortmund which is on the lower end for them. A similarly high-running expectation for Dortmund would sound more amongst the line of "be indisputable #2 in the league with a good chance of challenging for the title, reliably reach the Ro16 in the CL and have at least a decent outsider's chance of making final, maybe even winning the thing".

A more... realistic expectation for both clubs in the medium term is pretty similar, I'd say: reliably establish oneself in the direct CL qualification spots, have a shot for the title if maybe the stars align just right, regularly make it into at least the knock-out phase if not direct qualification to Ro16 in the CL.

That's how I see it too.

 

[FortunaUtd]

I feel like you're putting an expectation for United that is very much on the high end of the spectrum against one for Dortmund which is on the lower end for them. A similarly high-running expectation for Dortmund would sound more amongst the line of "be indisputable #2 in the league with a good chance of challenging for the title, reliably reach the Ro16 in the CL and have at least a decent outsider's chance of making final, maybe even winning the thing".

A more... realistic expectation for both clubs in the medium term is pretty similar, I'd say: reliably establish oneself in the direct CL qualification spots, have a shot for the title if maybe the stars align just right, regularly make it into at least the knock-out phase if not direct qualification to Ro16 in the CL.

If that is how you feel, that is probably because I wasn't precise in what sense I used the word 'expectations'. The better word would probably have been 'ambition'.
And then, the disparity between ambition and realistic short term expectation is much more stark at Man United than it is at BVB, where both basically align - the difference between

be indisputable #2 in the league with a good chance of challenging for the title, reliably reach the Ro16 in the CL and have at least a decent outsider's chance of making final, maybe even winning the thing

and

reliably establish oneself in the direct CL qualification spots, have a shot for the title if maybe the stars align just right, regularly make it into at least the knock-out phase if not direct qualification to Ro16 in the CL

really isn't that big..
Where as at Utd, the ambition of being the top club in the league and a top ~5 club in the world is starkly disaligned with the somewhat realistic short term expectation of contending for top 4-5 with the likes of Chelsea, Newcastle, Villa.

BVBs ambition doesn't massively exceed their realistic expectations, and that is substantiated by how they're financially in an easy position to match those ambitions. They are undisputed 2nd in both turnover and wage bill, with a big lead on Leipzig and Leverkusen, not to mention Stuttgart or Frankfurt.
33% more turnover than Leipzig, 50% more turnover than Leverkusen. 20% higher wage bill than Leipzig, 40% higher than Leverkusen.
(https://media.dfl.de/sites/2/2024/05/Clubs-der-Bundesliga-2024-25-Geschaeftsjahresende-2023.pdf)
Utd are also 2nd in turnover, but much closer followed by Liverpool, Chelsea, Spurs. The wage bill is the 4th highest, Chelsea, Liverpool, City paying more. And all that to a level where basically even Aston Villa pay more in wages than any Bundesliga club bar Bayern.
Financially the PL is much more competitive at the top.
https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/68713522
Then, let's not pretend as if BVB's squad building and transfer business over the years, if underwhelming, has been anywhere as catastrophic as Man United's.

As a BVB manager, if you're a competent manager you are in a good position to match the ambition of the club. At Utd, as a competent manager, you are in a precarious situation to match even the expectations, while the specter of the club's ambition still adds to the pressure.
And that is precisely what makes the Man United job so difficult and the BVB job so easy. The air is thinner here, to fail to recognize that is to fundamentally misunderstand the predicament the club is in. That Ten Hag would find much more favourable and benevolent conditions at BVB is without doubt to me.