I wouldn't talk down Khedira at his peak, but it's true that his athleticism was one of his driving attributes and factors like his age, injury file and year long absence from regular playing probably won't help him there. He doesn't have the qualities to transition into the role of a deep lying playmaker, like some other players did to prolong their careers, either. Which also might be what Hertha actually miss the most in their midfield.
German Football 20/21
- Thread starter do.ob
- Start date
Yes, we talked about that earlier, but I'm not sure how much that experience is worth if the player attached to it doesn't fit into the team.
My point was actually that Dardai should shut up.
But i agree with you that Khedira to Hertha is a bit crazy.
*ahem* @Zehner
God I would've laughed so much if Dortmund actually went out after conceding that late.
Please don't
It was a weird match. Probably the first time I saw a goal get turned into a penalty for the other side in Germany. 5 minutes of review before the 3:2 stood, about a dozen great counter attacking opportunities wasted by Dortmund afterwards, probably would've been "deserved" to get punished for such wastefulness.
Essen are doing great things in the Regionalliga West. Undefeated! Might even get promoted this year.
It's no shame to lose against them.
This is probably for the weird feelings of football thread, but I feel like Hradecky makes a costly mistake multiple times per season in big matches and today, too, he didn't look great for either goal he conceded. Maybe a cheeky bid for Bürki is in order next summer?
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Essen are undefeated since 32 matches and 366 days but yeah that was typical from Leverkusen.
As their 3:2 was probably offside they should have...
Not just probably, but certainly. Shocking stuff from the refs.
Actually Stieler didn't really do anything wrong. One of Paderborn's players seems to have gone for the ball, which means a new situation of play and no offside. Stieler saw (or guessed) as much during the play, VAR looked at it from every angle and at the very least couldn't disprove him. So the call stood and no on field review was mandated either .
Yeah, yeah, I read the explanation too.
A Paderborn defender attempts to intercept a pass to an offside player and doesn't get there ("at least it can't be disproved whether he touched it just slightly" by VAR yeah right
) and that doesn't make it offside?Laughable stuff, absolutely laughable. Give your head a shake and look at it fresh, and tell me it isn't laughable.
Yeah, yeah, I read the explanation too.
A Paderborn defender attempts to intercept a pass to an offside player and doesn't get there ("at least it can't be disproved whether he touched it just slightly" by VAR yeah right
Laughable stuff, absolutely laughable. Give your head a shake and look at it fresh, and tell me it isn't laughable.
In that clip you can hear the little thud of Paderborn's player making contact with the ball:
We can talk about whether the rule needs an update, but until it does get one the ref still has to abide by it, which - as far as I can tell - he did.
And for what it's worth: I'm not sure this would be overruled even if you include some form of "why did he defender interfere with the ball?" into the rule, as you can see in the clip the guy seems to be ball-watching during that scene. It's not clear (or even doubtful) whether he was even aware of Haaland and for all we know he might as well have been afraid of Reyna receiving the ball behind him.
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It's incredible how seamless Stuttgart - and Wamangituka in particular - have made the transition from the second division to the first.
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If that call was in line with the rules, the rules need to change. Not calling it offsite because the defender scarcely touched the ball is contradictory with everything I learned about offsite growing up. I mean, if I shoot at the goal, a player throws himself in the shot and the ball bounces to a player in an offsite positions, it's obviously offsite, too.
I mean, what should the Paderborn player do? Let the ball pass instead of intercepting it because Haaland might be offsite? What if I cross the ball to the long post, a defender tries to intercept it but hardly deflects it, so that the receiving striker in an offsite position can still score. It would be offsite if the defender wasn't on the ball but not if he touched it? That's ridiculous.
This is actually so absurd that I wouldn't have believed the rules go like this before this incident if somebody had told me.
I don't think the rule itself is the problem there. The problem is the ref's interpretation of the situation and the application of those rules as a result. He interpreted the defender's action as a block. I wouldn't call it that as the defenders actually made a play on the ball instead of the ball bouncing off of him with him having no control over its path. I'm pretty sure that another VAR would have seen that differently and may not have deemed that an offside.
What I find weird is how the ref seemed to have given that final decision instead of requesting for a review on the monitor. Surely one can't trust the VAR that much. After all, they just give further support to the referee, not overrule them.
As far as I know "deliberate play" just means a player deliberately made contact with the ball. How much contact or how complete or beneficial it is has no relevance. Therefor an on the pitch review wasn't in order either, as the purpose of the check was whether the ref got the facts (contact or not) wrong, without any kind of subjective leeway.
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It's good that you brought up the point of "deliberate play". The Laws of the Game state this regarding deliberate play:
Is there any way in which that attempted clearance could be classified as a "deliberate save" and not just "deliberate play"? I'm trying to see if I can interpret that situation in the same way that the ref did. Honestly, I don't think I can unless I really start to bend the rules and my interpretation of deliberate actions in football. The clearance wasn't off of a shot, by the way, so unless the ref interprets the pass as a "shot", then I see no other way to give that as an offside.
It's honestly baffling how wrong that looks even when looking at the offside law from IFAB's Laws of the Game. It goes to show you that, no matter what's in the Laws, the ref still has ultimate control over their application.
Well that's what I was trying to explain with my previous post: deliberate play appears to be defined at intentionally making contact with the ball. So Paderborn's player sticking out his leg towards the ball was enough to qualify as such. VAR only had to check whether he could disprove the ref's perception that the player made contact with the ball.
"deliberate save" would have turned that situation into an offside call.
Yeah, I was basically extending your point as well as attempting to step into the ref's shoes. I just don't see how any official at that level (ref, assistant, 4th official, VAR, or otherwise) would interpret that as a "deliberate save" of any kind.
Anyways, back to the thread topic: I don't know about you guys, but I'm looking forward to the Hertha Berlin vs. Bayern Munich matchup. As bad as Hertha have been this season, they aren't necessarily a boring side or one that's lacking in technically proficient players. I'm looking to seeing Bayern's defence against them.
It's still bullshit. If attacker A crosses the ball, the attacker B is offsite, defender A tries to block the ball regardless but only deflects it a bit so that it still gets to B, is it offsite? Off course it is, although I made deliberate (not cotrolled) contact - at least as deliberate as in this very case.
Can't understand how such stuff gets into the rules. I mean, the baseline has always been that if a player in offsite position influences the game to his team's advantage, it's offsite. You score after a defleted shot? Offsite. You irritate the keeper? Offsite. You score after the shot hit the post? Offsite. You fake a shot so that you free up space for your team mate? Offsite. But in this case, Haaland clearly influences the game from an offsite position (if he hadn't been there the Paderborn player wouldn't need to go to the ball) and it's a different case?
There are two different logics being applied here.
He didn't, deliberate save would have made Haaland "active" and forced the ref to call offside.
Oh yeah, that's true. In that case, I have absolutely no clue what the ref saw from that to interpret it as an offside.
EDIT: I'm talking about the Köln goal from one of your recent posts, not the Dortmund one. I need to see that goal to see what that's about.
In general I agree that the rule could use adjustments in particular with regards to own goals caused by defenders try to prevent a tap in from a cross. But in this case I think it's doubtfull whether the defender had any idea what Haaland was doing 20 meters away from him while he was watching the ball. I mean normally the RCB even just clears it, long before Haaland can get to it.
@do.ob
Okay, I just saw Haaland's goal. I see what's going on now. The ref wouldn't give that as an offside if he thought that the pass wasn't going towards Haaland in the first place and that the "deliberate play" from the Paderborn defender took the ball towards Haaland.
From what I can see, that play can be interpreted differently depending on the ref, and it's not necessarily straightforward. In fact, I think it's difficult and can go either way. Was the pass actually going towards Reyna, or was it going towards Haaland? That's the key question here. If the ref interpreted that as the former, then it's not offside. If it's the latter, then it's offside. Regardless of the call that the ref makes, I don't think VAR has enough to overturn the decision either way.
I can see how one can be aggrieved by the call, but honestly, it's not easy. In real time, that touch may have been enough to send the pass through to Haaland. If that touch wasn't made, then maybe the ball would have gone to Reyna (in real time). In either case VAR wouldn't have enough evidence to overturn the call no matter how much one slows down the play or magnifies into the defender's contact.
Okay, I just saw Haaland's goal. I see what's going on now. The ref wouldn't give that as an offside if he thought that the pass wasn't going towards Haaland in the first place and that the "deliberate play" from the Paderborn defender took the ball towards Haaland.
From what I can see, that play can be interpreted differently depending on the ref, and it's not necessarily straightforward. In fact, I think it's difficult and can go either way. Was the pass actually going towards Reyna, or was it going towards Haaland? That's the key question here. If the ref interpreted that as the former, then it's not offside. If it's the latter, then it's offside. Regardless of the call that the ref makes, I don't think VAR has enough to overturn the decision either way.
I can see how one can be aggrieved by the call, but honestly, it's not easy. In real time, that touch may have been enough to send the pass through to Haaland. If that touch wasn't made, then maybe the ball would have gone to Reyna (in real time). In either case VAR wouldn't have enough evidence to overturn the call no matter how much one slows down the play or magnifies into the defender's contact.
As far as I know the rules don't care who the pass was intended for, they only state: deliberate play = new situation of play., with the exemption of deliberate save.
.. and again: opponent attacker 1 on 1 before Neuer within the first minutes. We do it every fecking game. Does my fecking head in.
Why has the game started already, isn't the normal kickoff time 20:30?
Yes but Bayern wanted to play earlier to be able to get to Qatar asap.
Meanwhile Lewandowski missed a penalty...he is mortal after all.
Our final touches in attack suffer a lot from the rather heavy snowfall.
Helps deflections though, goal Coman.
Helps deflections though, goal Coman.
maybe use some yellow or orange balls for the rest of the game
Never a yellow card, not even a foul. Awful refereeing.
It's official
I hope we have a good match together against you guys in the upcoming club world cup game.
Looking forward to it! I can tell you we are very beatable.I hope we have a good match together against you guys in the upcoming club world cup game.
Not to that degree.
As long as we try to be as competitive as possible it will be fine for us. Hopefully an entertaining match for all of us. Have been looking forward to face the European champion ever since our first participation in this competition.It's official
Not sure if you can call that luck or just lack of skill on Hertha's side. I feel like a more capable side like Gladbach would have taken advantage of all those opportunities.
Kinda weird how those Bayern-Hertha matchups have been really close calls for the past few years (except for that one time Nouri was coaching). For some reason Hertha does a lot better against them than against Leipzig for instance.
Doesn't really matter to me if he knew that Haaland was there. The fact that generally Dortmund players were in that area means there's a threat of a through ball. If all BVB players would've been deep in their own half the Paderborn player would just let it pass. He was clearly trying to prevent a pass he thought could be dangerous and that pass ended up at the feets of a player who was offsite. Moreover, the pass would have ended up there anyway.