German Football 20/21

do.ob said:
Well his last year or so under Löw was a pretty good indicator of how much he could help Löw's team. If they were playing a well drilled possession game I'd be all for Müller returning. But they aren't and probably won't in the future either as long as there isn't a new coach.
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I don't know. In a well drilled possession team, other players would flourish just as much. After all, Müller produces possession losses in abundance and did so for Löw's national team at the end of his tenure. And that team definitely played possession oriented football. I'd argue Müller's best phase occurred when he was played on the right between 2010 and 2014 so his competition would probably be Gnabry who's one of Löw's best performers.

Thing is, I don't really know if you can drill a national team to the point that Müller's short comings doesn't affect it too much now that he has so much competition. His last games for Germany were incredibly frustrating to watch. So wasteful in possession and so little end product because he couldn't create anything on his own. As good as he plays for Bayern currently, I'm not too keen on seeing those performances for the national team again.
 
Zehner said:
I don't know. In a well drilled possession team, other players would flourish just as much. After all, Müller produces possession losses in abundance and did so for Löw's national team at the end of his tenure. And that team definitely played possession oriented football. I'd argue Müller's best phase occurred when he was played on the right between 2010 and 2014 so his competition would probably be Gnabry who's one of Löw's best performers.

Thing is, I don't really know if you can drill a national team to the point that Müller's short comings doesn't affect it too much now that he has so much competition. His last games for Germany were incredibly frustrating to watch. So wasteful in possession and so little end product because he couldn't create anything on his own. As good as he plays for Bayern currently, I'm not too keen on seeing those performances for the national team again.
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I mean you could play something like:

Neuer - Kimmich, Boateng, Süle, x - Goretzka, x- Gnabry, Müller, Sane - x

That's 8 players from Bayern's current squad. If you play the same football you'd only have to fill in a few blanks.
 
do.ob said:
Well his last year or so under Löw was a pretty good indicator of how much he could help Löw's team. If they were playing a well drilled possession game I'd be all for Müller returning. But they aren't and probably won't in the future either as long as there isn't a new coach.
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It's all one big, sad farce
 
Piratesoup said:
It's all one big, sad farce
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Neither is this a squad that can win a title (basically all those players who are now in their mid to late 20s didn't develop well enough), nor is it likely that one of the good coaches actually wants the job. The best one can hope for is a fortunate run like England at the last WC and who really cares about making semi final number 30. I don't think much is lost by giving Löw another chance. It might actually turn into one of those famous blessing in disguise situation, because the worse he does the more like it is that reforms get done.
 
Zehner said:
I don't know. In a well drilled possession team, other players would flourish just as much. After all, Müller produces possession losses in abundance and did so for Löw's national team at the end of his tenure. And that team definitely played possession oriented football. I'd argue Müller's best phase occurred when he was played on the right between 2010 and 2014 so his competition would probably be Gnabry who's one of Löw's best performers.

Thing is, I don't really know if you can drill a national team to the point that Müller's short comings doesn't affect it too much now that he has so much competition. His last games for Germany were incredibly frustrating to watch. So wasteful in possession and so little end product because he couldn't create anything on his own. As good as he plays for Bayern currently, I'm not too keen on seeing those performances for the national team again.
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Muller Gnabry play together for Bayern and just won the treble. Loews inability to use them is his own shortcoming not Mullers
 
Lagger said:
Müller's performances fluctuating with his managers is probably more of a statement of the quality of those managers than Müller's. We know he's got his particular playstyle and depends on his freedom, but if you don't play him to his strengths, don't expect him to perform. That's not really on Müller, that's on the manager picking the wrong tool for the wrong job. You wouldn't put Neuer in midfield and then expect him to outshine everyone else there, why try to force Müller into a position he's wasted on and then complain that he doesn't perform?

I know you didn't say that, but I don't think him not getting callups and/or underperforming under certain coaches is indicative of his potential to help a team.
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Exactly that.

If Germany had a manager that knew how to use Müller's strengths and who wasn't intimidated by Müller's outspoken/strong personality, he would still be an undisputed starter for the national team.
 
Another splendid performance.


do.ob said:
Neither is this a squad that can win a title (basically all those players who are now in their mid to late 20s didn't develop well enough), nor is it likely that one of the good coaches actually wants the job. The best one can hope for is a fortunate run like England at the last WC and who really cares about making semi final number 30. I don't think much is lost by giving Löw another chance. It might actually turn into one of those famous blessing in disguise situation, because the worse he does the more like it is that reforms get done.
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Probably not, but this is also not a squad that should regularly struggle against anyone better than Latvia. It also irks me that Löw can do such a miserable job - all the NT does is literally done to perform at the WC and both were a disaster - and still make an absolute killing. He is the best paid NT coach in the world, for god's sake, and he's not shown up in 4 years. Reforms are necessary, the DFB is a pigsty, but it's a bunch of players NT careers (or at least their peak NT years) being sacrificed on the altar of Löw.
 
Piratesoup said:
Probably not, but this is also not a squad that should regularly struggle against anyone better than Latvia. It also irks me that Löw can do such a miserable job - all the NT does is literally done to perform at the WC and both were a disaster - and still make an absolute killing. He is the best paid NT coach in the world, for god's sake, and he's not shown up in 4 years. Reforms are necessary, the DFB is a pigsty, but it's a bunch of players NT careers (or at least their peak NT years) being sacrificed on the altar of Löw.
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If you want reform what better way is there to get them than letting things burn to the ground instead of getting someone who allows everyone to save face. In the end squad quality is a far bigger problem than Löw anyway.
And if all these poor players were really so good or trying so hard they wouldn't churn out one soulless performance. Regardless of who is coaching them.


GameOn said:
Exactly that.

If Germany had a manager that knew how to use Müller's strengths and who wasn't intimidated by Müller's outspoken/strong personality, he would still be an undisputed starter for the national team.
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Let's not write Müller into a martyr, the reason why he struggles for certain coaches isn't that they tragically misunderstand his genius it's that he has distinct weaknesses and needs his team mates playing a certain way. Which is fair enough if you're looking at Bayern, because they want to play this way regardless, but even if Löw got sacked his successor won't be one of Germany's star coaches, some pressing merchant would be far more likely.
 
do.ob said:
If you want reform what better way is there to get them than letting things burn to the ground instead of getting someone who allows everyone to save face. In the end squad quality is a far bigger problem than Löw anyway.
And if all these poor players were really so good or trying so hard they wouldn't churn out one soulless performance. Regardless of who is coaching them.
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It burned to the ground in 18 and Löw got an extension before the tournament. It feels like he's here to stay no matter what happens. Regarding squad strength: On paper, this squad is still really strong. Not France strong, sure, but still good enough to at least occasionally win convincingly. But we don't anymore. Yet the team plays in a way that doesn't draw from its strength and accentuates its weaknesses again and again.
 
The attack isnt the problem.
The midfield balance defensively and the defence itself are the issues imo
 
do.ob said:
Let's not write Müller into a martyr, the reason why he struggles for certain coaches isn't that they tragically misunderstand his genius it's that he has distinct weaknesses and needs his team mates playing a certain way. Which is fair enough if you're looking at Bayern, because they want to play this way regardless, but even if Löw got sacked his successor won't be one of Germany's star coaches, some pressing merchant would be far more likely.
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The vast majority of attacking players have distinct weaknesses and need the team to play a certain way in order to look good or great.

Just look at Werner or Havertz in the N11. Both look lost more often than not.

Heck, even Messi for Argentina - one of the best ever - is a far cry from Messi at Barcelona.
 
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Most kids have never seen a single good German NT performance!

We remember, but for kids Germany is just rubbish....


In what Club could Löw possibly be successful?
He will clinch to his job as hard as he can and I dont see a strong enough person in the DFB Management pushing him out.

Unbelivable that we have to hope for consecutive loses to get that fraud out, I had so many discussions with blind believers over the last 3 years, they have become more quiet but still exist.
 
Piratesoup said:
Probably not, but this is also not a squad that should regularly struggle against anyone better than Latvia. It also irks me that Löw can do such a miserable job - all the NT does is literally done to perform at the WC and both were a disaster - and still make an absolute killing. He is the best paid NT coach in the world, for god's sake, and he's not shown up in 4 years. Reforms are necessary, the DFB is a pigsty, but it's a bunch of players NT careers (or at least their peak NT years) being sacrificed on the altar of Löw.
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We don't reforms, we need him sacked.Wait a minute, that's actually a great euphemism to use for sackings. From now on, I shall call for reforms, too, whenever I want someone sacked :D Oh well, just 4 more years:lol::(


Pow said:
The attack isnt the problem.
The midfield balance defensively and the defence itself are the issues imo
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What he said. Keeping Kroos in the team was a baffling decision that is now coming back to haunt him. He was one of the worst players in that WC18, but Löw probably just remembered that free kick against Sweden. Now we're blessed with a sated, yet undroppable midfield general who's got the mobility of a snail, and our midfield, what should be our main strength, appears to be just another troubled part of the squad.
 
GameOn said:
The vast majority of attacking players have distinct weaknesses and need the team to play a certain way in order to look good or great.

Just look at Werner or Havertz in the N11. Both look lost more often than not.

Heck, even Messi for Argentina - one of the best ever - is a far cry from Messi at Barcelona.
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Müller's conditions for greatness are somewhere in the ball park of peak Bayern. Regardless of whether or not Löw gets the sack Die Mannschaft won't be anywhere close to being able to replicate that level of cohesion. He is the past, Havertz and Werner - for better or for worse - are the future. Like others have mentioned I wouldn't mind Kroos getting binned either: for all his qualities it seems impossible to find a stable CM setup with him. Between Werner's explosive pace and Havertz' technical ability they don't rely as much on their peers as Müller either.
 
do.ob said:
Müller's conditions for greatness are somewhere in the ball park of peak Bayern. Regardless of whether or not Löw gets the sack Die Mannschaft won't be anywhere close to being able to replicate that level of cohesion. He is the past, Havertz and Werner - for better or for worse - are the future. Like others have mentioned I wouldn't mind Kroos getting binned either: for all his qualities it seems impossible to find a stable CM setup with him. Between Werner's explosive pace and Havertz' technical ability they don't rely as much on their peers as Müller either.
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I wouldn't say that.

Müller was arguably one of the best N11 and Bayern players from 2010-2012, too, where none of those two teams were at their peak. I still think Germany could've taken down Spain in the 2010 WC semifinal, if not for Müller being suspended. He had that great of a run.

Banning Müller, Boateng and Hummels, while keeping guys like Kroos, Reus or Draxler in the team, was just really stupid. You either try to really rebuild your squad by getting rid of the entire old guard, or you still nominate players according to the performance principle.

Löw hasn't done any of those two things. It really looks like he's just playing his favorites.
 
The biggest argument in favour of a Thomas Müller return is his role as a leader on the pitch. Ever since the covid19 lockdown it has become apparent that Thomas Müller is coordinating much of Bayern's pressing game with constant verbal commands. Calling out passing angles and runs with expert precision and foresight.

When you look at the pitiful performance of the German NT in the game against the ball I sure as hell would think Thomas Müller would improve this team defensively.

Furthermore I also very much believe that we could easily create an environment in which he can shine similar to Bayern last season.

Just hear me out, you could just play 7 treble winners plus Leroy Sané and fill up the ranks with a LB, Kroos and Havertz! Kroos can play the Thiago position. Goretzka does the dirty work for Kroos and Kimmich plays RB even if he doesn't like it.

Gnabry, Müller, Havertz, Sané is an insane front-line against and with the ball and three of these four players know how to press at the highest level as a unit. I expect Havertz would have little trouble fitting in.
 
Any early indications of what Bayern’s line-up might look like tomorrow night? @Blackwidow

I’m guessing it’ll be a 3rd-string with all the non-European kids. Sarpreet probably would have started if he wasn’t on loan.
 
NYAS said:
Any early indications of what Bayern’s line-up might look like tomorrow night? @Blackwidow

I’m guessing it’ll be a 3rd-string with all the non-European kids. Sarpreet probably would have started if he wasn’t on loan.
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No. Actually only 3 of the U23 team are allowed to play at the same time because of the regulations.

But according to what has been seen on the training pitch and what Flick said in the press conference the team will look like this:

Nübel
Sarr - ??? probably Süle - Boateng - Davies
Martinez - Roca
Musiala - Müller - Costa
Choupo-Moteng

All of the new players will get their first start. And Musiala.

There will be enough class on the pitch - a question is just about the fitness of the new players and the coordination of the team.
 
GameOn said:
I wouldn't say that.

Müller was arguably one of the best N11 and Bayern players from 2010-2012, too, where none of those two teams were at their peak. I still think Germany could've taken down Spain in the 2010 WC semifinal, if not for Müller being suspended. He had that great of a run.

Banning Müller, Boateng and Hummels, while keeping guys like Kroos, Reus or Draxler in the team, was just really stupid. You either try to really rebuild your squad by getting rid of the entire old guard, or you still nominate players according to the performance principle.

Löw hasn't done any of those two things. It really looks like he's just playing his favorites.
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Well if it's 2010 again we don't even need to fire Löw, because he just had that impressive WC. ;)

And overhauling the squad is not a binary process where you either keep everyone or cut everyone who is in his late 20s and 30s. Boateng, Hummels, Müller was a decisive first step, now it seems like that wasn't enough, so maybe it's time to look at Kroos.
Draxler is one of those weird obessions of Löw. The problem isn't that he is too old or too vocal, it's that Löw somehow confuses a squad player for a safe starter when looking at him.
And Reus? What about him? He hasn't been with the team for the last three international breaks.
 
2ndTouch said:
In a rocket-powered wheelchair? Maybe...
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:lol:

On paper, Kimmich-Kroos-Goretzka is almost a ditto copy of the 2014 WC midfield, but the biggest issue is that Kroos has lost mobility these last few years (not that he was super mobile before, but that was made up for by Schweinsteiger and Khedira).

Kroos' ability on the ball are unparalleled in Germany, but they have to make up for his lack of energy off the ball.
 
Blackwidow said:
No. Actually only 3 of the U23 team are allowed to play at the same time because of the regulations.

But according to what has been seen on the training pitch and what Flick said in the press conference the team will look like this:

Nübel
Sarr - ??? probably Süle - Boateng - Davies
Martinez - Roca
Musiala - Müller - Costa
Choupo-Moteng

All of the new players will get their first start. And Musiala.

There will be enough class on the pitch - a question is just about the fitness of the new players and the coordination of the team.
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Sean_RedDevil said:
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I forgot about the non-national team Germans and the new signings.

Danke!
 
do.ob said:
And Reus? What about him? He hasn't been with the team for the last three international breaks.
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Technically he's still a national team player though.

I just don't get why Löw would particularily single out Müller, Hummels and Boateng when trying to "clean house".

What were the reasons for throwing them under the bus, while keeping the door open for Kroos, Reus, Draxler etc.?

It can't be based on the performance principle, because all of them were absolutely abysmal during the 2018 WC and even in the games before that. You can't really say that the first three were worse than the other three or vice versa.

So what criteria did Löw actually use when making this huge decision?
 
GhastlyHun said:
You don't need a very vivid imagintion to theorize those three were criticizing Löw more or less openly.
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With Hummels I'm all but certain of that.

Speaking in general I don't think it's such an outlandish concept to get rid of old team leaders if you don't want to rely on them anymore. Reus is of the same generation as the trio, but he's barely played for the NT, I don't think there is much pressure for Löw to play him or on the players who might start ahead of him. So there is not as big a need to make a clean break as with the players who have dominated the team for about a decade.
 
Bayern just throttled European best and they have 7Bayern players. You have a tournament coming up in 8months the easiest thing to do is to copy the personnel and formation and tactics then plug a few holes

Neuer Kimmich Sule Boateng, Kimmich Goretzka Gnabry Muller Sane provides the framework you can just fill out to do well in a tournament, this was what Spain did with the Barcelona framework from 2008-2012
 
The line-ups leaves little doubt that Hansi Flick doesn't appear to be a great admirer of Angelo Stiller's. At this point it looks like none of our own academy players will make the jump just as I thought it would happen.
 
Bazi said:
The line-ups leaves little doubt that Hansi Flick doesn't appear to be a great admirer of Angelo Stiller's. At this point it looks like none of our own academy players will make the jump just as I thought it would happen.
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I don’t know anything about Stiller but to have at least 5 players in the lineup that have played together before is probably also a reason.
 
Acrobat7 said:
I don’t know anything about Stiller but to have at least 5 players in the lineup that have played together before is probably also a reason.
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Doesn't really matter, does it? If he is not playing against a team from the fifth division, he's probably not going to feature at all.
 
EMCM scores after Sarr's assist, Douglas Costa involved as well.

Müller makes it 2 from the spot. Can't recall the last time he scored a pen in a real match. Of course it's the closest thing to a friendly any real match could be.
 
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Bazi said:
Doesn't really matter, does it? If he is not playing against a team from the fifth division, he's probably not going to feature at all.
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I haven't kept up with our 2nd team these past couple of years. Do you know more about him and his performances?

Edit: Ah, he got subbed in, alright.
 
Bazi said:
Musiala and Richards are the ones we "stole" from Chelsea's academy. I don't really consider them our academy products.
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I do not care about that. He was for free when Chelsea wanted to rob us for Hudson-Odoi. And I really enjoy his playing. He is really far for a 17-year old.
 
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