Geovany Quenda - Summer 2025

[Adnan]

The reason you can't define a recruitment system that's data led is because you'd either end up describing what happens at clubs like Liverpool/Bournemouth or none at all.

No the issue is that there's many people like yourself who get led on to believe that data is the absolute pivotal aspect when it comes to recruitment at the clubs you mention, when data is in reality being used to gain incremental gains. But the biggest gains come from the actual eye test when it comes identifying players for a set way of playing the game and that's where the biggest gains come from. But we as a club are failing in that aspect and jumping straight to achieving marginal gains cannot be achieved via data if you fail to understand how you want to play and who you want to sign to carry out the tactical blueprint via the eye test and your own brain. This is where the biggest gains are and if you achieve this then the marginal gains make the recruitment process even more effective. Those clubs you mention in your post have achieved close to maximinum gains via their scouting department, especially Liverpool and their data analytics has solidified that by providing incremental gains on top of the work done by Barry Hunter and Dave Fallows who are known to be best in class ever since they were poached from Man City in 2012. Liverpool's recruitment is being led by both these men.

Now as this is the Geovany Quenda thread I think it's important to get the discussion back on track. And I think it's also now probably better to discuss your out of possession statistics when it comes to 17 year old Quenda who is primarily a attacker.

What this further proves to me is that you're using statistics wrong for a young wide/advanced attacking player whose primary role will be in-possession and not out of possession. The statistics you brought up are best applied to the central midfield and the CBs who form the central core of the team and occupy positions in either the most vulnerable area defensively or the most penetrative as far as breaking lines in-possession, especially against the oppositions high press.

And the stats you put forward for Quenda quite clearly show me that you're using the statistics wrong. You're either ignoring or are oblivious to the tactical concepts of playing a more expansive game hence you're throwing out random stats to support a claim on a player who shouldn't be judged on what he will bring about out of possession at 17 years old but rather what he will provide in-possession as a attacker in a system of play that is geared up to play more proactive as a team and hence impose themselves on the opposition.

It's why Ralf Rangnick said that you have to first understand how you want play or else it's like trying find a needle in a haystack when it comes to recruitment.

 

[Bojan Djordjic]

By the way I just read that he hasn't scored since 28 games. That's a longer goalless streak than Garnacho (22) and Hojlund (19).

Mate, he's 17. You're being disingenuous if you're seriously using goal involvement stats to compare him with an older winger and a striker. Ronaldo had 6 league goal involvements in his age 17 season. Quenda has 4 when he's mostly played wing back. Its ridiculous stuff to be assessing him off his output when most kids aren't even breaking into their teams for another two years.

At this age, you need to use your eyes and look at the things he's good at. He's pacy, can beat his man with ease and has great passing technique to go along with really good vision. His ball striking can be a bit wild but I'm sure that's as much to do with composure as anything else. The one other thing that people have said about him is that his attitude is top class and that he works hard on the training ground. These are all massive green flags and yes, he might not be putting in Salah/Saka numbers next year or even the year after, he is a rare target of ours that looks like he could have a huge ceiling and wouldn't even be that expensive (2/3s of a Mason Mount).

 

[Marwood]

The thing is though, saying he's only 17, we can't expect him to do X,Y,Z.

The same can and should be said of Dorgu who is only just getting going in his career.

So we're going into next season with wingbacks(crucial in this system) who can't be expected to give us the assists/goals/defensive stats we need.

It just feels like more of the same from United. Trying to do it the hard way.

 

[Bojan Djordjic]

The thing is though, saying he's only 17, we can't expect him to do X,Y,Z.

The same can and should be said of Dorgu who is only just getting going in his career.

So we're going into next season with wingbacks(crucial in this system) who can't be expected to give us the assists/goals/defensive stats we need.

It just feels like more of the same from United. Trying to do it the hard way.

I think their floors are quite high though. Dorgu should have a few assists at this point were it not for terrible movement/finishing. I was very skeptical but I think he's been very good in the limited time we've seen him. DiMarco at inter is sometimes spoken about as the gold standard of wingbacks but he has four assists and four goals so far this season. Don't think that's beyond either Dorgu or Quenda quite quickly given their current numbers and provided there's improvements in midfield and up top.

 

[Marwood]

I think they're floors are quite high though. Dorgu should have a few assists at this point were it not for terrible movement/finishing. I was very skeptical but I think he's been very good in the limited time we've seen him. DiMarco at inter is sometimes spoken about as the gold standard of wingbacks but he has four assists and four goals so far this season. Don't think that's beyond either Dorgu or Quenda quite quickly given their current numbers and provided there's improvements in midfield and up top.

They might have potential. I think what you're saying about Dorgu there is quite favourable though

But maybe having potential, on both sides of the pitch, it can't be the best way forward.

At least one side has to be more of a sure thing that can deliver now.

 

[Bojan Djordjic]

They might have potential. I think what you're saying about Dorgu there is quite favourable though

But maybe having potential, on both sides of the pitch, it can't be the best way forward.

At least one side has to be more of a sure thing that can deliver now

I think we have steady RWBs already in Dalot, Mazraoui and Amad so its not like it'll be Quenda or bust. Also, we have Kamasson, Mantato and Shea Lacey coming through who can either play that position or in Lacey's case, could be ideal for the R10 role so that Amad could move back. Not many world class 23 old RWBs out there and don't see us shelling out what it would cost for the like of Dumfries/Frimpong.

 

[Chief123]

By the way I just read that he hasn't scored since 28 games. That's a longer goalless streak than Garnacho (22) and Hojlund (19).

Imagine comparing a wingbacks goal scoring streak to a forwards!

 

[Marwood]

I think we have steady RWBs already in Dalot, Mazraoui and Amad so its not like it'll be Quenda or bust. Also, we have Kamasson, Mantato and Shea Lacey coming through who can either play that position or in Lacey's case, could be ideal for the R10 role so that Amad could move back. Not many world class 23 old RWBs out there and don't see us shelling out what it would cost for the like of Dumfries/Frimpong.

I'm worried about Quenda and Dorgu being too young so the idea of looking to Kamason, Lacey is pretty crazy to me.

And Dalot who's having a shocker this season and simply isn't a wingback?

 

[Bojan Djordjic]

I'm worried about Quenda and Dorgu being too young so the idea of looking to Kamason, Lacey is pretty crazy to me.

And Dalot who's having a shocker this season and simply isn't a wingback?

Well that was more an illustration of the depth next year should Quenda need settling in. Those guys are all the same age or older than Quenda and standouts in a standout team in a competitive academy system in one of the best youth markets in the world right now.

Dalot hasn't been good this season but you're still getting a league average quality player there so not like him coming in to give Quenda a break every 3 three games is going to tank our season. Don't mean to be banging on about floors and ceilings but I do think the team's floor has improved in the last season or two. No massive gulfs like we had at RW, mf and LB in the past but we're now missing a bit of stardust that the likes of Pogba, Bruno, Rashford and even Martial on his good days gave us in the past to win games we shouldn't have won. Even McTominay did it multiple times last year. I definitely think Quenda can offer us that but I'd be happy to tolerate an adjustment period where he rotates for a season until he gets used to the league.

 

[FlawlessVictory88]

No the issue is that there's many people like yourself who get led on to believe that data is the absolute pivotal aspect when it comes to recruitment at the clubs you mention, when data is in reality being used to gain incremental gains. But the biggest gains come from the actual eye test when it comes identifying players for a set way of playing the game and that's where the biggest gains come from. But we as a club are failing in that aspect and jumping straight to achieving marginal gains cannot be achieved via data if you fail to understand how you want to play and who you want to sign to carry out the tactical blueprint via the eye test and your own brain. This is where the biggest gains are and if you achieve this then the marginal gains make the recruitment process even more effective. Those clubs you mention in your post have achieved close to maximinum gains via their scouting department, especially Liverpool and their data analytics has solidified that by providing incremental gains on top of the work done by Barry Hunter and Dave Fallows who are known to be best in class ever since they were poached from Man City in 2012. Liverpool's recruitment is being led by both these men.

Now as this is the Geovany Quenda thread I think it's important to get the discussion back on track. And I think it's also now probably better to discuss your out of possession statistics when it comes to 17 year old Quenda who is primarily a attacker.

What this further proves to me is that you're using statistics wrong for a young wide/advanced attacking player whose primary role will be in-possession and not out of possession. The statistics you brought up are best applied to the central midfield and the CBs who form the central core of the team and occupy positions in either the most vulnerable area defensively or the most penetrative as far as breaking lines in-possession, especially against the oppositions high press.

And the stats you put forward for Quenda quite clearly show me that you're using the statistics wrong. You're either ignoring or are oblivious to the tactical concepts of playing a more expansive game hence you're throwing out random stats to support a claim on a player who shouldn't be judged on what he will bring about out of possession at 17 years old but rather what he will provide in-possession as a attacker in a system of play that is geared up to play more proactive as a team and hence impose themselves on the opposition.

It's why Ralf Rangnick said that you have to first understand how you want play or else it's like trying find a needle in a haystack when it comes to recruitment.

How do you know where the biggest gains are? And how is it even possible to make these gains without first using extensive data resources? Do you work in this field because I do. Everything you say sounds like a total punter making it up as you go along.

There's article after article about Liverpool's transfer structure and a book written on it which outlines how data is the by far the biggest factor. All other elements are brought in when players perform to a very similar level. I.E Vanderson and Wesley are both very high performing right backs whose numbers for Tackles/blocks/take ons/carries etc are very close. Both of them are in the age range and position United would be looking at so in the event that two players are incredibly close and you want to make a decision on them you then start to look at lots of other factors. In no world do Liverpool/Bouremouth look at a winger whose in 99th percentile for dribbles/carries/goals/assists and then decide they're gonna go sign someone whose in the 75th percentile because apparently he's very coachable and nice to have in the changing room. Performance data first, personality second.

It doesn't take a genius to workout you want to have an idea of how you're going to play before you sign players, it's so obvious it barely needs stated. There's also a number of players who perform to a level that it's largely irrelevant. No one would look at Messi being #1 in dribbles/key passes/progressive carries/through balls/goals/assists and say yeah these stats are great and all but can he play in a 3-5-2?

Same thing with Harry Kane at striker or Van Dijk at centre back. The data is largely indicative of a players ability and it doesn't tend to change very much when said player is put into a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 etc.

Manchester United are in the current position specifically because we had eye test idiots making transfer decisions.

Here I'll help you out. United need a right wing back so assuming the profile is 24 and under, must be very good at ball carrying/take ons/creating chances and will need to be solid defensively and at a high level of athleticism. Also has to be available for 40m or less. The options are Vanderson/Frimpong/Wesley/Luis Henrique/Mateo Ponte/Jose Hurtado/Martim Fernandes and Quenda.

The best out of this group currently is Vanderson//Frimpong/Wesley/Luis Henrique. Maybe 17 year old Quenda or 19 year old Martim can overtake them but as of right now they're not close.

Vanderson and Wesley have very similar profiles so go investigate if either has a secret drug habit or if they're actually closer to Kaka and never touch alcohol because they're devoutly religious.

Both Frimpong and Luis Henrique play as right wing backs in teams that use 3 at the back so they're by far the easiest to measure and assess for Amorim.
Here's Frimpong vs Henrique: https://ibb.co/YFfNZ961
Here's Vanderson vs Wesley: https://ibb.co/LdQFfYGT

 

[Adnan]

How do you know where the biggest gains are? And how is it even possible to make these gains without first using extensive data resources? Do you work in this field because I do. Everything you say sounds like a total punter making it up as you go along.

There's article after article about Liverpool's transfer structure and a book written on it which outlines how data is the by far the biggest factor. All other elements are brought in when players perform to a very similar level. I.E Vanderson and Wesley are both very high performing right backs whose numbers for Tackles/blocks/take ons/carries etc are very close. Both of them are in the age range and position United would be looking at so in the event that two players are incredibly close and you want to make a decision on them you then start to look at lots of other factors. In no world do Liverpool/Bouremouth look at a winger whose in 99th percentile for dribbles/carries/goals/assists and then decide they're gonna go sign someone whose in the 75th percentile because apparently he's very coachable and nice to have in the changing room. Performance data first, personality second.

It doesn't take a genius to workout you want to have an idea of how you're going to play before you sign players, it's so obvious it barely needs stated. There's also a number of players who perform to a level that it's largely irrelevant. No one would look at Messi being #1 in dribbles/key passes/progressive carries/through balls/goals/assists and say yeah these stats are great and all but can he play in a 3-5-2?

Same thing with Harry Kane at striker or Van Dijk at centre back. The data is largely indicative of a players ability and it doesn't tend to change very much when said player is put into a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 etc.

Manchester United are in the current position specifically because we had eye test idiots making transfer decisions.

Here I'll help you out. United need a right wing back so assuming the profile is 24 and under, must be very good at ball carrying/take ons/creating chances and will need to be solid defensively and at a high level of athleticism. Also has to be available for 40m or less. The options are Vanderson/Frimpong/Wesley/Luis Henrique/Mateo Ponte/Jose Hurtado/Martim Fernandes and Quenda.

The best out of this group currently is Vanderson//Frimpong/Wesley/Luis Henrique. Maybe 17 year old Quenda or 19 year old Martim can overtake them but as of right now they're not close.

Vanderson and Wesley have very similar profiles so go investigate if either has a secret drug habit or if they're actually closer to Kaka and never touch alcohol because they're devoutly religious.

Both Frimpong and Luis Henrique play as right wing backs in teams that use 3 at the back so they're by far the easiest to measure and assess for Amorim.
Here's Frimpong vs Henrique: https://ibb.co/YFfNZ961
Here's Vanderson vs Wesley: https://ibb.co/LdQFfYGT

We are in this position because we have consistently failed to understand what is required to create a system of play which can be dominant and expansive in a higher line. It wasn't hard for me to see that Harry Maguire didn't suit a higher defensive line and it wasn't difficult to see that Wan Bissaka was also not technically good enough to provide the attacking quality in the final third for a team that aspired to play the game in the opponent's half. There's a difference between judging players who play in a more defensive conservative setup and players who regularly play in teams who implement a higher defensive line. The statistics will fluctuate between both setups because some of those players are defending deeper in a compact block whilst the other scenario is one where the team is defending from the front and has to control the larger spaces in a higher line. The data will fluctuate in both setups and the eye test has to take priority for the data to make any sense. And it's not about 433, 343 etc because those are formations and not systems of play. You can be ultra attacking or ultra defensive in any formation.

I don't care how many books are written by whoever about Liverpool's data analytics. What we do know is that the guy running the football structure at Liverpool was Michael Edwards and he himself has gone on record and said 'contrary to popular belief we don't sign players off stats". Edwards and their football structure had been at Liverpool for several years before Jurgen Klopp arrived. And in the years preceding Klopp, Edwards and the data analytics team was widely rediculed in the media where they were making countless mistakes. And it wasn't until Klopp arrived and guided them on how to recruit for a more expansive system of play, did they improve their body of work. Because before Klopp's arrival the Liverpool football structure was a running joke.

 

[Isotope]

If he doesn't cost 50+m and won't be our starter, we sure can wait until he can deliver constantly. But he's 18 y.o next season. All the excuses if he doesn't perform will be on his age.

On Klopp's 2nd season, he bought Mane (24), Wijnaldum (25), Karius (23), Matip (24) among others. None of this expensive "prospect" bullshit. And as we know, it doesn't really hurt Liverpool in immediate and long-term.

 

[Remember the geese]

If he doesn't cost 50+m and won't be our starter, we sure can wait until he can deliver constantly. But he's 18 y.o next season. All the excuses if he doesn't perform will be on his age.

On Klopp's 2nd season, he bought Mane (24), Wijnaldum (25), Karius (23), Matip (24) among others. None of this "prospect" bullshit. And as we know, it doesn't really hurt Liverpool in immediate and long-term.

Think we'll get him for something like £40m plus £10m in add ons and he'll be a starter.

 

[Bojan Djordjic]

If he doesn't cost 50+m and won't be our starter, we sure can wait until he can deliver constantly. But he's 18 y.o next season. All the excuses if he doesn't perform will be on his age.

On Klopp's 2nd season, he bought Mane (24), Wijnaldum (25), Karius (23), Matip (24) among others. None of this expensive "prospect" bullshit. And as we know, it doesn't really hurt Liverpool in immediate and long-term.

Different time. Smaller clubs and particularly relegation clubs had far less financial leverage than now. Also, Mane and Wijnaldum actually cost a decent amount for that time. Buying peak players from premiership clubs is not a financially viable strategy unless you're buying from United.

 

[FlawlessVictory88]

We are in this position because we have consistently failed to understand what is required to create a system of play which can be dominant and expansive in a higher line. It wasn't hard for me to see that Harry Maguire didn't suit a higher defensive line and it wasn't difficult to see that Wan Bissaka was also not technically good enough to provide the attacking quality in the final third for a team that aspired to play the game in the opponent's half. There's a difference between judging players who play in a more defensive conservative setup and players who regularly play in teams who implement a higher defensive line. The statistics will fluctuate between both setups because some of those players are defending deeper in a compact block whilst the other scenario is one where the team is defending from the front and has to control the larger spaces in a higher line. The data will fluctuate in both setups and the eye test has to take priority for the data to make any sense. And it's not about 433, 343 etc because those are formations and not systems of play. You can be ultra attacking or ultra defensive in any formation.

I don't care how many books are written by whoever about Liverpool's data analytics. What we do know is that the guy running the football structure at Liverpool was Michael Edwards and he himself has gone on record and said 'contrary to popular belief we don't sign players off stats". Edwards and their football structure had been at Liverpool for several years before Jurgen Klopp arrived. And in the years preceding Klopp, Edwards and the data analytics team was widely rediculed in the media where they were making countless mistakes. And it wasn't until Klopp arrived and guided them on how to recruit for a more expansive system of play, did they improve their body of work. Because before Klopp's arrival the Liverpool football structure was a running joke.

Ehhhhhhhh the book was written by Ian Graham, who led the data analytics team at Liverpool. It's literally called "how to win the premier league".

The irony of citing the transfer committee and the mistakes they made in the first few years when it's widely known that the majority of mistakes were because Liverpool and in particular Brendan Rogers wanted to have control over transfers and specifically went against the recommendations of the analysts. They wanted to sign Mane when he was at Salzburg and Rogers wouldn't allow it. They also wanted to sign Diego Costa and he wasn't having it.

Klopp came into Liverpool and then started taking the advice of the data team not ignoring them.

"When we tried to instigate the new plan of being data driven the answer most often was :well this is Liverpool and we do things the Liverpool way. It was very difficult for people to hear that the Liverpool way hasn't worked for 20 years"

Ian Graham

If you had a single clue on what you're talking about you'd know there's literally hours of videos online with people like Ian Graham and the recruitment team where they talk at length about how Rogers and co didn't want anything to do with data whereas Klopp adopted it.

 

[Adnan]

Ehhhhhhhh the book was written by Ian Graham, who led the data analytics team at Liverpool. It's literally called "how to win the premier league".

The irony of citing the transfer committee and the mistakes they made in the first few years when it's widely known that the majority of mistakes were because Liverpool and in particular Brendan Rogers wanted to have control over transfers and specifically went against the recommendations of the analysts. They wanted to sign Mane when he was at Salzburg and Rogers wouldn't allow it. They also wanted to sign Diego Costa and he wasn't having it.

Klopp came into Liverpool and then started taking the advice of the data team not ignoring them.

"When we tried to instigate the new plan of being data driven the answer most often was :well this is Liverpool and we do things the Liverpool way. It was very difficult for people to hear that the Liverpool way hasn't worked for 20 years"

Ian Graham

If you had a single clue on what you're talking about you'd know there's literally hours of videos online with people like Ian Graham and the recruitment team where they talk at length about how Rogers and co didn't want anything to do with data whereas Klopp adopted it.

The person in charge of their whole football structure was Michael Edwards who implemented the strategy along with Jurgen Klopp. And I've already provided you quotes of what he's said and these guys who are in charge and are the decision makers on the football side deny that their approach was data led. You don't want to accept this then that's fine.

It's well documented that there was issues between the transfer committee led by Michael Edwards and the manager at the time Brendan Rodgers. But according to reports some of those issues stemmed from Brendan Rodgers not being allowed to sign Sadio Mane (Salzburg) and Virgil Van Dijk from Celtic. It was reported about Liverpool's data analytics department deeming Sadio Mane not being good enough statistically per the 'Graham model' in 2014 and they instead put forward Benfica winger Lazar Markovic as a better fit statistically.

Brendan Rodgers made mistakes without a doubt, but so did Edwards and the team working under him. And it wasn't until Klopp arrived that he went ahead and signed Mane from Southampton because it was said that Klopp had been following him as a player since he was at the RedBull club in Austria. And Klopp signed numerous players that were affiliated with the RedBull clubs or the Bundesliga. Because those players were ingrained in the way he wanted his team to play a high tempo, high intensity, high pressing game backed up by the counter press and a strong rest defense in a higher defense line.

Klopp did take on board the advice of Edwards and his team but he needed strong evidence to the contrary. That evidence wasn't there when it came to signing Sadio Mane who he signed despite the data analytics team deeming him as not being a good fit statistically. But Klopp knew he was a fit for his system of play and none of these guys knew his system better than him. So they also listened to him and took his advice and followed his blueprint to recruit players for the high tempo, high intensity play style.

And nowhere have I said that Klopp didn't want anything to do with data. But data can only help you incrementally if you first have a blue print on how you want to play the game and how you want to control different phases of play with and without the ball. Data is a valuable tool to have and most sensible people will take heed of data but it's only useful if you first understand how you want to play and what type of players fit into how you want to implement that on the pitch. Nobody at Liverpool understood that better than Jurgen Klopp for obvious and he then went about making the football structure at Liverpool understand that. And that's what brought about the biggest gains for them and hence the marginal gains followed.

 

[aeh1991]

I think we have steady RWBs already in Dalot, Mazraoui and Amad so its not like it'll be Quenda or bust. Also, we have Kamasson, Mantato and Shea Lacey coming through who can either play that position or in Lacey's case, could be ideal for the R10 role so that Amad could move back. Not many world class 23 old RWBs out there and don't see us shelling out what it would cost for the like of Dumfries/Frimpong.

Apparently Frimpong has the same release clause as last summer, valued at €40m. The question is rather whether he would come to us.

 

[FlawlessVictory88]

The person in charge of their whole football structure was Michael Edwards who implemented the strategy along with Jurgen Klopp. And I've already provided you quotes of what he's said and these guys who are in charge and are the decision makers on the football side deny that their approach was data led. You don't want to accept this then that's fine.

It's well documented that there was issues between the transfer committee led by Michael Edwards and the manager at the time Brendan Rodgers. But according to reports some of those issues stemmed from Brendan Rodgers not being allowed to sign Sadio Mane (Salzburg) and Virgil Van Dijk from Celtic. It was reported about Liverpool's data analytics department deeming Sadio Mane not being good enough statistically per the 'Graham model' in 2014 and they instead put forward Benfica winger Lazar Markovic as a better fit statistically.

Brendan Rodgers made mistakes without a doubt, but so did Edwards and the team working under him. And it wasn't until Klopp arrived that he went ahead and signed Mane from Southampton because it was said that Klopp had been following him as a player since he was at the RedBull club in Austria. And Klopp signed numerous players that were affiliated with the RedBull clubs or the Bundesliga. Because those players were ingrained in the way he wanted his team to play a high tempo, high intensity, high pressing game backed up by the counter press and a strong rest defense in a higher defense line.

Klopp did take on board the advice of Edwards and his team but he needed strong evidence to the contrary. That evidence wasn't there when it came to signing Sadio Mane who he signed despite the data analytics team deeming him as not being a good fit statistically. But Klopp knew he was a fit for his system of play and none of these guys knew his system better than him. So they also listened to him and took his advice and followed his blueprint to recruit players for the high tempo, high intensity play style.

And nowhere have I said that Klopp didn't want anything to do with data. But data can only help you incrementally if you first have a blue print on how you want to play the game and how you want to control different phases of play with and without the ball. Data is a valuable tool to have and most sensible people will take heed of data but it's only useful if you first understand how you want to play and what type of players fit into how you want to implement that on the pitch. Nobody at Liverpool understood that better than Jurgen Klopp for obvious and he then went about making the football structure at Liverpool understand that. And that's what brought about the biggest gains for them and hence the marginal gains followed.

There's literally interviews with Ian Graham were he talks about this subject and it was he and the data team that wanted Mane but Rodgers said no.

Please show me the reports where it was the data team who deemed him not good enough?

You continually use data led or data driven without being able to define it. It doesn't take more than two seconds to read the full Michael Edwards statement and see he said that they don't make decisions solely based on stats, this doesn't mean the recruitment policy isn't data driven it just means it's not literally 100% of the decision.

 

[Borussia Teeth]

I think you two need to agree to disagree

 

[Ish]

I think you two need to agree to disagree

That, or get a room!

 

[DonBecks]

I think you two need to agree to disagree

Coming in here thinking you'll see something Quenda related but no, same two people going at it

 

[Adnan]

There's literally interviews with Ian Graham were he talks about this subject and it was he and the data team that wanted Mane but Rodgers said no.

Please show me the reports where it was the data team who deemed him not good enough?

You continually use data led or data driven without being able to define it. It doesn't take more than two seconds to read the full Michael Edwards statement and see he said that they don't make decisions solely based on stats, this doesn't mean the recruitment policy isn't data driven it just means it's not literally 100% of the decision.

According to reports at the time Sadio Mane was being offered around by his agent whilst the player was at Salzburg. One of those clubs he was offered to was Liverpool. And their statistical model deemed the player as being not good enough. Raphael Honigstein speaking to German outlet Sport 1 is quoted as saying the following below. The quotes below were picked up by numerous aggragators but the original source was Sport 1 in Germany.

Raphael Honigstein told Sport1 the Senegal international did not meet their 'statistical criteria' after he was run through a computer program, and so was rejected.

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/foo...Deal-Sadio-Mane-Red-Bull-Salzburg-Southampton

Here's another one from Duncan Castles from 2014.



Duncan Castles: "When Red Bull Salzburg were looking for a buyer for Sadio Mane in the summer, Liverpool were one of the clubs approached. Graham's analysis indicated the Senegal international wasn't good enough, so Mane ended up at Southampton instead."

Liverpool also denied Brendan Rodgers from signing Van Dijk. Not that Rodgers covered himself in glory but you can see why there was a falling-out between them.

"When I was at Liverpool I asked about Van Dijk and he was at Groningen and then at Celtic. But I was told he wouldn't be for us at the time."

https://www.skysports.com/football/...-to-sign-virgil-van-dijk-says-brendan-rodgers




I'm not sure why you want me to define a process that is mainly coined by fans and the media. Data at Liverpool was utilised to back the decision of the football experts at the club, like their heads of recruitment Barry Hunter and Dave Fallows who are actually in charge of the recruitment departments and have been a massive part in how Liverpool recruit players with the help of Jurgen Klopp. Whether it's Edwards overseeing the whole football structure along with Jurgen Klopp or Hunter and Fallows overseeing the recruitment departments, these were the guys who had the authority when it came to recruitment and their data analytics team backed them up in the decision making process. It's as simple as that.

This is also a thread for the young player from SCP. And we've derailed the thread eventhough I've tried to bring you back on track by attempting to engage you on your opinion on the player which you didn't responded to.

 

[FlawlessVictory88]

According to reports at the time Sadio Mane was being offered around by his agent whilst the player was at Salzburg. One of those clubs he was offered to was Liverpool. And their statistical model deemed the player as being not good enough. Raphael Honigstein speaking to German outlet Sport 1 is quoted as saying the following below. The quotes below were picked up by numerous aggragators but the original source was Sport 1 in Germany.

Raphael Honigstein told Sport1 the Senegal international did not meet their 'statistical criteria' after he was run through a computer program, and so was rejected.

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/foo...Deal-Sadio-Mane-Red-Bull-Salzburg-Southampton

Here's another one from Duncan Castles from 2014.



Duncan Castles: "When Red Bull Salzburg were looking for a buyer for Sadio Mane in the summer, Liverpool were one of the clubs approached. Graham's analysis indicated the Senegal international wasn't good enough, so Mane ended up at Southampton instead."

Liverpool also denied Brendan Rodgers from signing Van Dijk. Not that Rodgers covered himself in glory but you can see why there was a falling-out between them.

"When I was at Liverpool I asked about Van Dijk and he was at Groningen and then at Celtic. But I was told he wouldn't be for us at the time."

https://www.skysports.com/football/...-to-sign-virgil-van-dijk-says-brendan-rodgers




I'm not sure why you want me to define a process that is mainly coined by fans and the media. Data at Liverpool was utilised to back the decision of the football experts at the club, like their heads of recruitment Barry Hunter and Dave Fallows who are actually in charge of the recruitment departments and have been a massive part in how Liverpool recruit players with the help of Jurgen Klopp. Whether it's Edwards overseeing the whole football structure along with Jurgen Klopp or Hunter and Fallows overseeing the recruitment departments, these were the guys who had the authority when it came to recruitment and their data analytics team backed them up in the decision making process. It's as simple as that.

This is also a thread for the young player from SCP. And we've derailed the thread eventhough I've tried to bring you back on track by attempting to engage you on your opinion on the player which you didn't responded to.

Par for the course that your sources are two tabloid journos who make it to what Tier 3 for most clubs?

How about Ian Graham himself "we wanted Mane at Salzburg but Rodgers said no, he would have cost a fraction of what we ended up paying for him"

I'd say the head of recruitment data at Liverpool is more reliable when it comes to what happened at Liverpool than Duncan castles.

 

[Adnan]

Par for the course that your sources are two tabloid journos who make it to what Tier 3 for most clubs?

How about Ian Graham himself "we wanted Mane at Salzburg but Rodgers said no, he would have cost a fraction of what we ended up paying for him"

I'd say the head of recruitment data at Liverpool is more reliable when it comes to what happened at Liverpool than Duncan castles.

Honigstein is very close to Ralf Rangnick and was Ragnick's mouth piece at United. And Rangnick was the Sporting director at the RedBull clubs hence Honigstein's information was very well sourced.

Also Graham was the head of research at Liverpool and was never head of recruitment data at the club as you put it. Him and his team did lead on data but the Liverpool football structure led by Edwards, Klopp and Hunter and Fallows oversaw the recruitment. The data analytics was a support function for the aforementioned names who led their respective football departments and made the biggest difference to bringing about change to the club. And because these guys excelled in their roles and brought about the biggest change, marginal gains would then further contribute towards Liverpool's success via the data or even the video analytics.

 

[FlawlessVictory88]

Honigstein is very close to Ralf Rangnick and was Ragnick's mouth piece at United. And Rangnick was the Sporting director at the RedBull clubs hence Honigstein's information was very well sourced.

Also Graham was the head of research at Liverpool and was never head of recruitment data at the club as you put it. Him and his team did lead on data but the Liverpool football structure led by Edwards, Klopp and Hunter and Fallows oversaw the recruitment. The data analytics was a support function for the aforementioned names who led their respective football departments and made the biggest difference to bringing about change to the club. And because these guys excelled in their roles and brought about the biggest change, marginal gains would then further contribute towards Liverpool's success via the data or even the video analytics.

I'm sure Honigsteins has more information about the decision making at Liverpool than the leading data expert who worked at the club. /s

"Former Liverpool manager Brendan Rodgers turned down the opportunity to sign Sadio Mane two years ago when he joined Southampton for £12m, According to Kristian Walsh of the Liverpool echo, the Liverpool transfer committee identified Mane as a transfer target during his Red Bull Salzburg days"

"Liverpool have openly told media outlets that although the 24-year-old is a ‘Jurgen Klopp signing’, we’ve been watching him for two years and wanted him back in 2014 – only for Brendan Rodgers to object.

During that summer Southampton paid £12m to acquire the flyer from Red Bull Salzburg, while Liverpool shelled out £20m on Lazar Markovic instead – who’s got nowhere near fulfilling his price-tag yet…" Telegraph

You can't define the term that's largely been coined by fans and media yet you can confidently say that Liverpool definitely aren't data led. Makes sense.

 

[Adnan]

I'm sure Honigsteins has more information about the decision making at Liverpool than the leading data expert who worked at the club. /s

"Former Liverpool manager Brendan Rodgers turned down the opportunity to sign Sadio Mane two years ago when he joined Southampton for £12m, According to Kristian Walsh of the Liverpool echo, the Liverpool transfer committee identified Mane as a transfer target during his Red Bull Salzburg days"

"Liverpool have openly told media outlets that although the 24-year-old is a ‘Jurgen Klopp signing’, we’ve been watching him for two years and wanted him back in 2014 – only for Brendan Rodgers to object.

During that summer Southampton paid £12m to acquire the flyer from Red Bull Salzburg, while Liverpool shelled out £20m on Lazar Markovic instead – who’s got nowhere near fulfilling his price-tag yet…" Telegraph

You can't define the term that's largely been coined by fans and media yet you can confidently say that Liverpool definitely aren't data led. Makes sense.

What Tier is the Liverpool echo? Only asking because you've were quick to play down the reliability of Honigstein and Castles due to them being tier 3.

I'm not sure what you want me to define. Liverpool's recruitment structure was led by Edwards and Klopp and the recruitment departments were led by Barry Hunter and Dave Fallows who if you didn't know have a very good reputation as talent spotters and Liverpool managed to pry them away from Man City in around 2012 which was a bit of coup for them. And the aforementioned names are who lead their recruitment strategy and not the data analytics team. The data analytics team is a support function which helps them make better decisions but their recruitment structure wasn't led by data but rather their recruitment heads who are Barry Hunter and Dave Fallows. This is what you don't seem to understand and you end up giving far too much credit to a data department that is there to support the heads of recruitment who lead their recruitment.

I'm all for having data to support the recruitment process but that recruitment process has to first have a blueprint to follow. And that blueprint when it comes to applying a football ethos comes from people who specialise in understanding the game, which in-turn makes interpreting data easier for the way the head coach wants to implement his strategy on the pitch. You don't run straight to data without having a understanding of how you want implement your game plan tactically and what is expected of each player in different phases of play. Jurgen Klopp understood this at a high level and it made the work of the rest easier because it gave them a guide to follow.

So I know Liverpool aren't data led when it comes to recruitment because I know who they have in positions of authority when it comes to recruitment and it wasn't Ian Graham and his team.

 

[Judas]

What a waste of energy on my fingers scrolling this last page was.

 

[pocco]

So @Adnan @FlawlessVictory88 what do you make of this Quenda, fellas?

 

[Remember the geese]

Data led or not data led? Who gives a feck

 

[golden_blunder]

team @Adnan for me

 

[Ish]

team @Adnan for me

but was it a flawless victory for him, geebs?

 

[golden_blunder]

but was it a flawless victory for him, geebs?

Newbie fired all his powder dry for today

 

[Ish]

Newbie fired all his powder dry for today

 

[FlawlessVictory88]

What Tier is the Liverpool echo? Only asking because you've were quick to play down the reliability of Honigstein and Castles due to them being tier 3.

I'm not sure what you want me to define. Liverpool's recruitment structure was led by Edwards and Klopp and the recruitment departments were led by Barry Hunter and Dave Fallows who if you didn't know have a very good reputation as talent spotters and Liverpool managed to pry them away from Man City in around 2012 which was a bit of coup for them. And the aforementioned names are who lead their recruitment strategy and not the data analytics team. The data analytics team is a support function which helps them make better decisions but their recruitment structure wasn't led by data but rather their recruitment heads who are Barry Hunter and Dave Fallows. This is what you don't seem to understand and you end up giving far too much credit to a data department that is there to support the heads of recruitment who lead their recruitment.

I'm all for having data to support the recruitment process but that recruitment process has to first have a blueprint to follow. And that blueprint when it comes to applying a football ethos comes from people who specialise in understanding the game, which in-turn makes interpreting data easier for the way the head coach wants to implement his strategy on the pitch. You don't run straight to data without having a understanding of how you want implement your game plan tactically and what is expected of each player in different phases of play. Jurgen Klopp understood this at a high level and it made the work of the rest easier because it gave them a guide to follow.

So I know Liverpool aren't data led when it comes to recruitment because I know who they have in positions of authority when it comes to recruitment and it wasn't Ian Graham and his team.

Tier Ian Graham verbatim saying he and the data team wanted Mane but Rodgers said no, Rodgers has never refuted this.

Why do you keep citing Barry hunter and Fallows as being some genius scouts for work at City? What the city team who signed Jo, Roque Santa Cruz, Robinho/Adebayor for 120m in two windows? Then paid another 70m for Dzeko and Balotelli the next? City were a complete joke until Txiki Begirstein came in who coincidently fired both of them and took over football operations. So yeah real coup for Liverpool.

United fans who have zero clue about data go through the same cycle over and over:

Step 1: Ask why can't we recruit like Liverpool/Brighton or Bournemouth.
Step 2: Find out what they do and agree it seems like a good idea to use data models.
Step 3: Find out the data views their scorching hot take as being borderline braindead.
Step 4: Forget data lets use the eye test.
Step 5: Sign Antony for 80m

12 months later back to step 1.

 

[golden_blunder]

Tier Ian Graham verbatim saying he and the data team wanted Mane but Rodgers said no, Rodgers has never refuted this.

Why do you keep citing Barry hunter and Fallows as being some genius scouts for work at City? What the city team who signed Jo, Roque Santa Cruz, Robinho/Adebayor for 120m in two windows? Then paid another 70m for Dzeko and Balotelli the next? City were a complete joke until Txiki Begirstein came in who coincidently fired both of them and took over football operations. So yeah real coup for Liverpool.

United fans who have zero clue about data go through the same cycle over and over:

Step 1: Ask why can't we recruit like Liverpool/Brighton or Bournemouth.
Step 2: Find out what they do and agree it seems like a good idea to use data models.
Step 3: Find out the data views their scorching hot take as being borderline braindead.
Step 4: Forget data lets use the eye test.
Step 5: Sign Antony for 80m

12 months later back to step 1.

Surely you can post without coming across as condescending?

 

[FlawlessVictory88]

One of the reasons Ajax scored in excess of a 100 goals last season was due to Antony being a key cog in their team imo. He's such a menace to the opposition that he opens up space for others which helped Ajax sustain attacks and create chances. Antony alone won't fix our problems, but imo he's a player that will be important for the now and long-term.

Premier league defenders will long remember how much long term menacing Antony was responsible for.

Interest thread which goes into different facets of Antony's game and also highlights his work rate and ability to carry out pressing instructions extremely well which are statistically higher than players like Rashford, Sancho, Saka, Salah etc

The only interesting thing about this thread is the poster who made it hasn't tried to delete it from the internet.

But if United do end up signing him, i for one will be very happy to see such a flamboyant player arrive who has the potential to be a world class player with elite touch and technique. He's a player that I highlighted on this forum a few years ago when he made the move to Ajax from Sao Paulo.

Looks like eye test Adnan is back on the menu!

That brings about a tactical flexibility and positional rotation potential which has been non existent for a while imo. Antony is potentially a superb signing and provides a balance that has been missing for too long on the right side imo.

Truly superb.

What those stats indicate is the difference between a ten Hag approach and the counter attacking reactive approach we have become accustomed to seeing for too long.

Antony is a better dribbler than both Rashford and Sancho imo. He can dribble at speed and has quick dynamic lateral movement in full flow, which makes him a very difficult opponent.

When the game is being controlled both in the offensive and defensive transition, dribbles as well as passing and link up/combination play, will be a big part of what shows up statistically. Antony played in such a approach, and hence why the statistics show him with less dribbles in comparison to Rashford and Sancho. Because the approach was to sacrifice defensive stability for goals by overloading the opponents half with a high volume of players. In that scenario you need to mix it up with both dribbles and passing/combination play.

Sancho and Rashford were involved in a setup where they found themselves isolated on a number of occasions, so trying to dribble their way out of trouble was a requirement and we would turn over possession frequently. And that shows up on the statistics.

But like I always say, it's important to first understand what one is applying the stats towards before jumping to a conclusion. Because statistics are useful, but only if you first have a understanding of different tactical and strategical approaches towards the game. And from my observation on this forum, I feel people look towards the statistics before attempting to understand what they've seen with their own eyes. And then that leads to unnecessary arguments and confusion.

Adnan the stats man!!! Who knew?

The price is high without question but for me Antony's ability in the transition will transcend any league.

Any league.

Fair to say your eye test isn't what we should be relying on.

 

[FlawlessVictory88]

but was it a flawless victory for him, geebs?

Newbie fired all his powder dry for today

Surely you can post without coming across as condescending?

Right back at ya champ.

 

[RedC]

Newbie fired all his powder dry for today

'Newbie'

 

[pascell]

So what about Quenda, any good?

 

[Remember the geese]

So what about Quenda, any good?

Wrong thread? This is the 'Chatting irrelevant bollocks' thread.