We should sell Dalot
Geovany Quenda - Summer 2025
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss three 1-1 draws.
The first got us knocked out of the FA Cup, the next puts us in a good position in our Round of 16 Europa League game, and the latest was an actual decent performance against Arsenal at Old Trafford.
All hopes for the season now rest on the Europa League - does Amorim have the squad to win it?
I think when it comes to athleticism, Quenda shouldn't be judged on what he will do out of possession but rather what he can potentially deliver in-possession. For a 17 year old wide attacking outlet, Quenda does possess impressive athletic qualities for his age in-possession. Obviously he's still very young and should improve further.
Liverpool's transfer strategy isn't data driven but is rather driven by the eye test and then the eye is backed up by the data team. Barry Hunter and Dave Fallows run their recruitment department and are the key players when it comes to identifying talent via their scouting department. Michael Edwards has gone on record and praised the efforts of Barry Hunter for his role in the recruitment process at the club and Hunter is their chief scout.
I'm not saying they don't utilise data analytics to their advantage but it's not a data driven process like some journos like to sensationalize in their weekly press columns. Liverpool's recruitment since Klopp arrived at the club was to sign fast, physical, athletic players at the back and in midfield with a good level of technical ability where they could pass the ball forward without compromising on ball retention.
This then provides the forwards with a strong foundation to thrive in the opponent's half with the players in the first two lines playing higher up the pitch and suffocating the opponent in their own half which allowed the Liverpool team to press from the front more effectively. So what they had created under Klopp was a team that can sacrifice defensive stability for goals. And they did that by identifying players who were fast, physical with a good level of technical ability in-possession at CB and midfield.
When you know how you want to play then it shouldn't be difficult to identify the right players via the eye test and data can then benefit the process further by helping the recruitment team make more informed decisions.
We should definitely not trust him in the XI when we recruit but I'd keep him as a squad player myself, he's got some strong attributes but is just bang average on the ball.
That's another conversation all together
Actually, it's their attributes I'm considering, rather than simply the fact they are both left-footed. Essentially, Quenda is not enough of a runner to be ideal. A prime left-footed and right-sided Zambrotta or Spinazzola, or a mature Robben, would be extremely appealing options to pair with Amad. It's very rare to find a player who predominantly looks to, and genuinely excels at, running the line on their 'weak' side and is suitable for a wingback role.
Quenda rarely looks to run in behind a defender off the ball. He can maintain width when his side is in possession but basically always wants the ball into feet. He is supremely technical and is razor sharp in his movements, so he can take the ball under pressure really well, and he is a genuine threat one on one. Instances of him getting to the bye line are limited to situations where he is able to receive the ball in the final third isolated and squared up against an opponent.
A prominent feature of Quenda's game in deeper areas is his tendency to move infield off the right, whether receiving the ball on the touchline and cutting in or simply carrying the ball with time and space, or moving laterally off the ball to receive in an inside right position. He has a great eye for a pass, and with a ball at his feet he generally makes intelligent, team-oriented decisions.
Quenda isn't going to be the player motoring down the line to catch a ball played in behind the opposition defence - he's going to be the one playing the pass. Typically, in order to supply the team with as much effective, penetrative wide play as possible, Quenda will consistently require purposeful off the ball running from a teammate.
That is not Amad. He is basically the same. Looking at our squad, the players I have most wanted to see ahead of Amad when he's been used at right wingback is Garnacho and Mount. When he's been used as the right forward I've been willing Dalot to rediscover the energy and confidence to provide the positive, aggressive overlapping support play I feel he did last season as our Player of the Year. I would want the same were Quenda added to the current squad and proposed to play either right wingback or right forward too, however with Amad in the side I would want us to try to integrate Quenda into one of the positions on the left side.
And how do you measure a good level of technical ability that doesn't compromise ball retention?
Maybe something like progressive passing? Progressive carries? You can't play a high line with defensive players that can't win tackles, so maybe a stat like tackles won in midfield 3rd or attacking third?
Liverpool understood the profile of player they wanted to sign in order to play the way Klopp did. They used data in order to then find these players.
We know what type of profile Amorim wants for his full backs. They need to be very mobile/dynamic because he sometimes asks them to sit in a deeper line and then attack the space a pressing team leaves, they need to be high level at ball carrying/take ons and they need to be good crossers. Go look a the last 50 goals scored by Gyokeres and see the wing backs role. Or look at the data around someone like Porro played at Sporting.
Quenda has most of these qualities in possession, not to the same level as Ait Nouri but he's still only 17. Out of possession however he's really lacking which shows up in basically every metric that measures duels. It's rarely punished in the Portuguese league which is much less physical and lower quality overall. If he played for United this would be a huge issue.
Frimpong would make more sense as a priority, Amad as the right 10 and Frimpong to provide the width would totally change the dynamic of this attack. Don't think he'd cost as much as Quenda either.
He'd probably cost more, especially when you account for wages. His release clause has expired and he's one of the best, peak attacking right full-backs in the world. Would I'm sure be north of €50m which I believe is what Quenda is being touted at?
Plus how realistic is he as a signing... Leverkusen are a much better side than United at the moment and he'd no doubt have other potential options if he were to leave like Liverpool (assuming Trent goes) or possibly a return to City.
I can’t even articulate why but I’ve never been as certain as someone destined to being a failure at United as I am about Frimpong. Maybe Gyokeres
I agree with you on Frimpong.
Not so much on Gyokeres.
Not so much on Gyokeres.
He's the best RWB alongside Hakimi. If he fails here it would be not because of him. I can see him succeed at Liverpool or City.
He literally was at City and didn’t succeed.
He left at 19 and had never made a first team appearance. You've got to be given a chance to be able to succeed.
Yeah I'm not 100% sold on him either, he's very lightweight and I'm not convinced he's that great in possession in terms of build-up / helping control a game so I think he'd only work in certain systems.
A move to Liverpool would be perfect for him because Trent basically has the same problems in the same areas (albeit slightly different reasons) and they've already worked out a way to help cover those up throughout the years, but I could see those parts of his game getting exposed heavily in a team like United at the moment.
A player who passes forwards without losing the ball most of the time is a player who can play vertical passes without compromising on ball retention.
Liverpool did understand how they wanted to play or specifically Klopp knew how he wanted to play hence the transfer strategy was based on his high intensity game style which involved playing in a higher line with the high press and controlling transitions in a higher line also factored into his plan. Liverpool absolutely used data analytics but their recruitment strategy wasn't data led and this has been confirmed by Michael Edwards himself. Lee Dykes who is at Brentford and is their head of recruitment, has also confirmed that their transfer strategy is backed up by data and not data driven. These teams who utilise data are first led by their scouting department via the eye test before the data is used to back up the eye test. First you need to understand how you want to play with and without the ball and then the eye test followed by data analytics will make a difference.
Quenda is a player that is reportedly wanted by the club. He's only 17 at this time and we know he will improve facets of his game which are not developed due to him being so young. But at 17 years old he's already very good in-possession and his out of possession game will develop as he matures physically. Quenda's role on the pitch is primarily as a attacker first. And the defensive aspects you've described in your posts should apply to the CBs and deeper midfielders who should be tasked with controlling the space higher up the pitch, winning duels and progressing the ball forward. All this will help attackers like Quenda who can then be in a position to receive those passes and it will alleviate some of the defensive burden of his shoulders along with the rest of the attackers. Hence why it's important to have a strong rest defense where players in midfield and CB can control the game out of possession even in a higher line which gives the attackers like Quenda the platform to thrive and showcase their in-possession abilities whilst their deficiencies out of possession are covered for by having a group of players at CB and midfield who have the ability to win duels even in bigger space when the defensive line is pushed up.
Ait Nouri is a good player and I've posted about having him in the team several years ago. But very similarly he was also a young player that was quite raw in his abilities when he moved from Angers in France at the age of 19 or 20. I think at the same Quenda is a bigger talent and has the ability to be a genuine winger/wide forward. He's a versatile attacker with big potential and I'm all for signing these types of players but it's important to create a strong platform for players like Quenda to thrive by having strong duel winning capability in central midfield and at CB. Liverpool had that strong duel winning ability in the first two lines hence a player like Trent Alexander Arnold could thrive in-possession without his out of possession vulnerabilities being exposed.
Do you think a forward line of say .. Delap, Amad, Bruno backed by Ugarte and maybe a fairly robust playmaking CM has enough "duel winning ability"?
Hmmm... that's a strange way to look at it. Some of the best players (KdB, Mo Salah, etc) were once considered not good enough to play in England. Frimpong wasn't even a professional player yet, when he left the academy. If you doubt his physicality, he's exactly the same height as Quenda, at least according to Transfermarkt.
Anyone who is an integral part of Xabi's Leverkusen should be considered good enough tactically in any system. His role there is to press up high and cover the right flank. This would be a great complement to Amad, who likes to cut inside. He also has the ability to cross the ball, which has always been one of our weaknesses. We always complain that we don't create chances for the centre-forwards and Frimpong is great at that.
I'd prefer Frimpong to Quenda, no doubt. Obviously it depends on price, but if both were affordable, its hard to see why Quenda would be the better bet. Quenda looks good, but he'd be joining us aged 18 with perhaps 40 senior starts under his belt. We couldn't expect him to roll into the first team at United in those circumstances. We have to assume he would need at least one transitional season, and as we saw with Amad, its not uncommon for players to take until their 20s to be ready for the PL. Given our paucity of quality on the right side, I think we need someone who can deliver most of a season in the first team.
Amorium loves him.
In any case he can play left or right and potentially elsewhere. I think keeping both Maz (who's more useful) and Dalot gives us a lot of cover and flexibility even if neither are starters in our XI - if Dalot is sold we'd need TWO wing backs or then we only really have Dorgu and maybe Amad. Rather money spent on the ONE fullback and then elsewhere- Striker, Midfielder or 10.
I think we should sell Dalot. We could have Quenda, Kamason and even Amad as options on the right.
Does he?
He's basically had no choice to play him most of the time. He also at the very least will offer you a semi-competent performance, versatile in terms of left and right side, always fit to play and a willing runner so I can see why a manager would use him. He's not brilliant in any position and he's dumb as rocks but I get why he's picked.
The duel winning capability has to come from both the CB positions and midfield. Because the wide CBs will have to control the game in the channel out of possession and the CCB and the deeper midfielder will have to contain the game centrally and in the half spaces. But I think it's equally important that the CBs and midfielders provide a high level of technical quality in-possession as well, where we can get it forward effectively from the back and create extra passing options and overloads in the opponent's half. This is isn't happening right now and hence we struggle against a settle defensive block as far as out manouvering and pulling them out of position. Again having better players in the first two lines will have a positive effect on our attacking capabilities due to the volume of players we will be able to commit into the opponent's half.
I'm not sure if Bruno, Delap and Amad would have the right type of support behind them with Ugartre who isn't very good in-possession but is fine out of possession especially in a lower block.
I think alot will depend on who this robust playmaking CM is as you put it. I think if we can get a big talent in that position then I think it could open up numerous possibilities and might even allow us to give more minutes to someone like Sekou Kone who is showing potential to be a player who can combine and connect with the forwards from midfield which is something that top teams require.
I'm happy to trust Yoro in the RCB role. The LCB is a bit more iffy but Heaven seems to have the right ingredients even if he's not quite ready yet. Evans and Lindelof will leave and we renewed Maguire so it's not a stretch to think Maguire / De Ligt are being planned for the CCB role and we'll sign an LCB in the summer. I'm not too worried about the CB role, it's a pretty easy fix.
I'm concerned about the total lack of physicality between Bruno, Amad and Zirkzee if that combination starts upfront. Adding Garnacho and / or Hojlund to the mix doesn't change much. A midfielder of the Joelinton / Palinha mould can easily pick up the ball deep, shrug off any challenge from Bruno / Amad and carry it up the field. Every single side in the PL has a physical CM who can carry the ball forward from deep. Even guys that aren't super super athletic like Berge (in the FA cup game) were having a field day because of the lack of physicality in the forward line (specifically the two #10s)
Adding a playmaking DM has some effect on the press but I don't think a huge amount will change even if we just drop Rodri in there. My guess given the combinations we used (Bruno / Ugarte) is that we'll look for some playmaking ability from deep and the player might end up being more Jorginho or Partey than a Rodri.
I think we can carry one player that's not super physical of the Bruno, Eriksen, Amad, Zirkzee mould in the attack but the rest should compensate. As an example, consider the Arsenal pressing unit of Havertz, Rice, Odegaard, Martinelli and Saka. I'd back that unit to win many more defensive duels in the attacking 3rd than United.
A lot of the presssing "errors" can just be papered over with more pace / strength.
I don't think we're getting a Rodri type of player at the club because they're difficult to find. A younger Thomas Partey would be the ideal player along with a LCB with the requisite attributes.
Please show me where Edwards and co have all said the recruitment strategy wasn't led by data and was eye test driven.
You want me to show you where Edwards has said that they don't sign players solely off stats?
"Liverpool absolutely used data analytics but their recruitment strategy wasn't data led and this has been confirmed by Michael Edwards himself. Lee Dykes who is at Brentford and is their head of recruitment, has also confirmed that their transfer strategy is backed up by data and not data driven. These teams who utilise data are first led by their scouting department via the eye test before the data is used to back up the eye test"
Support this claim.
No problem.
Michael Edwards open letter to the Liverpool fans with quotes below.
"Contrary to popular belief, we don’t sign players off “stats” but the information provided from their research does play a crucial role in our decision-making. Whether it is video, written reports, data, background checks or good old-fashioned scouting from the stand, it all goes into the big decision-making melting pot. And when you make a decision, all this information allows you to do is mitigate the risk you are taking."
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/spo...ichael-edwards-liverpool-open-letter-22127172
Unquote: Liverpool's recruitment strategy is led by Barry Hunter and Dave Fallows who are then up backed up by the data analytics team.
Below is a CNN interview with Lee Dykes (Brentford) and the key bit in the clip below is at around 3 minutes. Dykes says that they have 15 scouts and it's impossible for them to cover 85,000 plus players with just those 15 scouts. So they use data analytics to filter down the options and deploy their 15 scouts in regions where the eye of the scouts can be better utilised. Data analytics plays a role to back up the eyes of the scouts which provides them with a more efficient way to utilise their resources which in-turn makes better use of their 15 scouts who they want leading on identifying potential new recruits.
It's also not difficult to see that some of the players we've signed over the years are just not suited to playing a more expansive game in the present day EPL. Until we as a club first understand this, data won't be as useful to us as it to those clubs who know what they want from each player in their respective positions on the pitch with the ball in-possession and then what is expected without the ball against the transition especially in a higher line where you're then expected to cover bigger spaces.
How much would he change our style of play? I mean he’d obviously make us more exciting on the right side and it will be a breath of fresh air if we don’t have to see Dalot again.
The thing is..
Dalot has little resale value - I can't imagine selling him for 30m plus. He's not costing the Earth.
Keeping him at a backup option makes a lot of sense especially as he can play multiple positions.
It makes no sense to ditch him unless a very big offer that'll never come comes along - so why play for a replacement doing the same thing as him?
I think he is one of the few players that potentially could bring us 30m (maybe 25m plus easy bonuses). He is a much better RB than RWB and his versatility and availability makes him a great option to have, hence you also want him to keep. I still think he should get sold. We could even try to get two wing backs then (Quenda and Frimpong or someone cheaper) and everyone's happy. It's an unrealistic scenario I know. But just quite risky to go with just one signing, especially if that's a 17 year old.
Dalot should be sold no question. He’s awful. Not even a good back up option.
I don't think we need Dalot as a backup option. We can use Kamason there for zero cost. I'm not really a fan of Dalot as an option for the left side.
Yeah this is just refuting your argument. If you use data to analyse 85k players and wittle it down to 15 then by definition you're data driven.
Dykes has also previously spoken about the fact that Brentford have their own proprietary data from owner Matthew Benham – and explained the advantage of this.
“The coolest thing about the data is it’s Matthew’s,” he said. ” It is unique. We are using the numbers our way. A lot of people that say they have data are correct, but it is a shared resource with other clubs. Where is the marginal gain there?”
Seems odd for people not driven by data to go so far as to set up their own proprietary data no other team has access too.
"He masterminded Liverpool's data-driven approach" https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5336537/2024/03/13/fsg-michael-edwards-liverpool-return/
It's not refuting my argument at all. Because Dykes is quite clearly saying that they utilise data to back up the eyes of the small number of scouts they have. And it's impossible to cover the large number of players they want to cover with just a small number of scout so they utilise data to filter out the players they don't want to waste time scouting to better utilise the eyes of those 15 scouts.
Data analytics is basically being utilised at Brentford to back up the small number of scouts they have which is sensible and makes the decision making process more informed. If they were strictly data driven as you seem to think then they wouldn't be utilising data for the benefit of the eyes of those 15 scouts. Because without first applying the eye test and understanding the tactical concepts required for their game model, data cannot be interpreted effectively.
The data model they use is theirs and that's well documented but that data model is to give them 'marginal gains' as he himself states. But those marginal gains can only benefit you as a club if you first understand with your brain and your eyes how you want to apply that data tactically to the game model you want manifesting on the pitch.
By the way I just read that he hasn't scored since 28 games. That's a longer goalless streak than Garnacho (22) and Hojlund (19).
We aren't signing him to play as a forward.
Just because the decision isn't being made 100% based off data does not mean that the recruitment isn't data led.
Using proprietary data in order to do additional analysis on 85k players in order to identify 15 or so players who would then be scouted is most certainly having a recruitment system eld by data.
If you disagree then please describe what kind of system would be fairly described as data led?
This thread is going off topic here and this will be my last post on this subject.
Brentford are using data to make the eye test more effective. Their use of data analytics is to get the best out of their limited scouts on the ground. Data is a very good tool for them because it gets rid of the clutter and makes better use of their limited resources because they're still prioritising the judgement of their scouts via the eye test hence their use of data to back that up.
The reason you can't define a recruitment system that's data led is because you'd either end up describing what happens at clubs like Liverpool/Bournemouth or none at all.