Clinical, the video proves it
General discussion thread
- Thread starter Synco
- Start date
Thinking how to implement a proper transfers draft.
1. The draft master will create 16 even teams drafted with 15 players each.
2. All 16 managers gets one of these 16 randomly allocated to them.
3. This will be a pure transfer window draft. At the end of the transfer window, you should have exchanged all the players in your team with other managers.
4. Any players you were not able to exchange will be dropped. You can pick from the unpicked players at the end.
5. You can exchange only 1 player with any other manager. So essentially you should have exchanged 1 with every manager.
Open to ideas on how to making the actual player exchange process more interesting.
1. The draft master will create 16 even teams drafted with 15 players each.
2. All 16 managers gets one of these 16 randomly allocated to them.
3. This will be a pure transfer window draft. At the end of the transfer window, you should have exchanged all the players in your team with other managers.
4. Any players you were not able to exchange will be dropped. You can pick from the unpicked players at the end.
5. You can exchange only 1 player with any other manager. So essentially you should have exchanged 1 with every manager.
Open to ideas on how to making the actual player exchange process more interesting.
I like that. It'd also be nice to include money somehow, so that there is some leverage for the buyer. Otherwise, if I want to exchange Titus Bramble with Beckenbauer, I'd just get laughed at. However, if I offer Titus Bramble and stupid money, they'd still laugh at me but silently shed a tear as well.
We need transfers but not at the cost of the actual drafting which seems to be the case in your idea.....ideally we can just somehow add them to a classic draft, no idea how though 
Maybe we could draft 16 players(so you draft players who you think people will like not who you like which is also interesting) and then we do scrappy idea
That'd be fun as you'd know you were effectively vetoing the player you picked for your team.
Sounds like fun. Would be keen to play something like that.
Sounds good.
Would that to be too long a draft?
Sounds like a more complete draft to be fair but might go on for more than a month before we enter the transfers phase.
Problem with money is at the end of drafting, what does the guy who has money do? Ideas welcome of course.
As long as isnt boring(and with transfers it shouldnt be) i dont have a problem with long drafts
Can you guess all of the players? Some interesting spelling there
Yup
Edit : Apart from Kopel...
Edit : Apart from Kopel...
Vodgf = Vogts, Vonhf = Bonhof, Kopel = Köppel, Weimmer = Wimmer. Not that many weird ones to be fair, but Vogts and Bonhof really impressed me – I can't even pronounce "Vodgf" properly, it sounds closer to "wtf" than to "Vogts" 
The name is Kopel, Hvors Kopel
Im genuinely baffled that people think a side midfielder in a 442 and a winger in 4231 are the same roles.....maybe its because of the draft so there is some bias towards their team(and lets be honest, we all been there) as i cant see another reason.
To not go deep into it, its perfect to use examples of 2 players - Beckham and Ronaldinho. Both tier 1 in their role while IMO average at best in other role.
To not go deep into it, its perfect to use examples of 2 players - Beckham and Ronaldinho. Both tier 1 in their role while IMO average at best in other role.
I have no problems with Beckham in either formation. I would not have Ronaldinho in either formation too.
As to the topic, think that has a couple of nuances, the biggest of which is the defensive workrate they are expected to provide:
Old School 4-2-4 Outside Right/Left wingers - Stanley Matthews, George Best, Garrincha, Finney etc - These are exclusively 4-2-3-1 type players. Some exceptions to the pool will have defensive workrate but overall they are purely part of attack. I'd be very hesitant to play any of them in a 4-4-2. Not a misfit, but definitely not peak either.
Classic 4-4-2 wingers - Figo, Beckham, Giggs, Donadoni, Conti, Pires, Ljungberg, Overmars - They are versatile and would fit both a 4-2-3-1 and 4-4-2. I frankly see very less distinction in either formations that'll affect their game play. Beckham probably is an exception because of his unmatched crossing/passing ability but I'd definitely buy him in a 4-2-3-1. The quality of fullback plays a role here too.
Modern wingers - This is a bit dicey as most like Ribery, Robben, Cristiano, Hazard can technically fit 4-2-3-1 but more at home in 4-3-3. But some like Bale/Di Maria are more classical in gameplay and can adapt to other formation.
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As to formation, pure 4-4-2's are quite rare. They are more of a 4-4-1-1 with players like Cantona, Dalglish, Bergkamp, Gullit etc playing a 9.5 role. Fergie often claimed he doesn't play a 4-4-2 but play split forwards which is just 4-4-1-1.
Those are not.
The question is, did we see pure 4-4-2 and pure 4-2-3-1 with a clear distinctions between them in those particular cases? Do I expect Best to play as a 4-4-2 winger in Gio's latest game? Or Jupp Heynckes to play a disciplined left wing role of a 4-4-2 winger in a formation with a 9,5 in Baggio who is naturally dropping back? Those particular cases didn't change that much in terms of their roles – mostly because the central set up stayed relatively the same. Zico coming in for Baggio? Laudrup pushing forward in his NT role? Those are some changes, but I don't see them as drastic ones.
And then you block Enigma. His set up didn't change by that much, but the role of Wimmer, for example, changed more than any of the roles that we've discussed here previously (especially with a different way that his midfield three was going to work now).
Nice categorization. Where do we throw in Saul Niguez and Koke?
So if I started David Beckham and Saul Niguez in the first game and Heynckes and Jinky in the second game, no one would have complained?
You could debate whether the players fit the tactics or not, but not that they're two completely different tactical setups. It's a bit like comparing Simeone's Atletico to Ole's United (without maybe the inverted wingers). I see much more minor tactical changes in other teams compared to this - and that's because there's some vagueness in how teams are supposed to actually play.
I'm mostly a bit annoyed about this because this is the second draft where I've tried to work on different tactical setups and explaining their operation and it's still panned because drafters will just be happier with "4-2-3-1, umm we press high and uhh win the midfield battle duh" with as many standard expected fits in the lineup as possible. Anyway, rant over, I'll shut up now and revert back to writeups with two lines.
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Classic 4-4-2 pool. I'd buy them as 4-4-2 first and still good for 4-2-3-1 as secondary.
Tbf I don't have an issue with your set up, but I think that Enigma's change should've been accepted as well.So if I started David Beckham and Saul Niguez in the first game and Heynckes and Jinky in the second game, no one would have complained?
I'm with @Edgar Allan Pillow with the formation and roles distinctions
well, i have the complete opposite opinion so no wonder we clash
surely we are watching everything through modern eyes(at least in drafts), so i agree Garrincha isnt a 442 player but Best is as his workrate was quite impressive for a player of his stature.
As i said to you in PM, if you dont see a difference between a side midfielder and a winger in a 4231 thats on you, the difference is massive.
442 - bigger workrate, different workrate compared to a winger as you need to help out in central zones, lesser offensive output, different offensive output(more assist based then a goalthreat)
4231 - so pretty much the opposite of above
And yes, i get your point that some players would play exactly the same(their value to the team wouldnt be the same) and some can play brilliantly both roles, but thats their quality it doesnt mean the roles are the same.
Also, 4411 and a 442 with a second striker(Cantona, Kenny, Bergkamp etc.) are quite different. Obviously most of this players have some if not all the qualities of a n10 but essentially they are strikers and they support the main guy up front, dont drop too deep and are staying in pockets between defence and midfield. In a 4411 you have a n10, he will drop much deeper for the ball, will bring the ball out and your striker will essentially be a lone one.
It's what we see in game. When you put up a criteria like Enigma rule, expectation is well see the team playing differently from R1.
Moving a winger like Pires from 442 to 4231 isn't really changing the way he or the team plays. His output and overall team dynamic is practically the same across both formations. Nothing has changed except on paper. We might as well not have that rule as it didn't achieve anything different.
I'm really surprised. Which team in real life has played 4411 with a proper #10?
For me Cole/Yorke is a 442. RvN/Cantona is a 4411. Fergie often insisted he doesn't play 442 late in his career and it was always"split forwards"....which is 4411.
Well, as we concluded - you think that nothing changes, i think it does. I dont rate Laudrup as a GOAT in a british 442 nor did i rate Giggs as highly in first game as i did in second where he plays in a 442 system.
Yorke Cole, Cantona Hughes were 442 and when Veron joined we tried 4411 and it didnt work. Not many examples of it because its a crap formation and tbh it doesnt make much sense even on paper.
I think the lesson is to leave the decision to 3 people rather than 1. Of course, not sure if Fortitude or Invictus had a say.
tbf that was the deal, some things then happened, i lost the plot and decision was made. feck it, in hindsight we both made mistakes that day.
Juve with Baggio?
Boo! Lies! It's not that far off a 4231 except Utd had a side midfielder rather than a proper right winger. I think the style could definitely work with a few tweaks to that Utd side.
Wasn't that more like a 4-4-2 diamond? I have to look into this as I don't recall who the wingers were.
You might be right on that as the Italians have rarely used wingers. All that said he would definitely work the position of the guy in the hole in a 4411
I believe 9.5 was his best position. Leave him in a free role behind a CF and it'll be great. @Pat_Mustard loves him too!
I agree but he was a different 9.5 than say Cantona. Baggio would start deeper and move forward whereas Cantona would start further forward and then drop deeper
My favourite player ever alongside Keane.
Aye, Juve mostly played 4-3-1-2 during that period, with Baggio either playing as #10 behind the likes of Vialli and Ravanelli, or slightly more advanced with Andreas Moller behind him.
One of my favorite performances of that era, with Moller and Baggio between them scoring three and assisting two against possibly the greatest defence ever
To @Synco @Joga Bonito and all other Gerd Müller's lovers, at least I've never heard of this before:
Joe McBride said:
A traumatizing event for young Gerd, but he fully recovered after a few therapy sessions:
A bit weird that he was playing at right back in pre-season considering that he would finish the upcoming season with 43 goals in 45 games.
Great pic thatA traumatizing event for young Gerd, but he fully recovered after a few therapy sessions:
It was Müller's first season at Bayern, and Cajkovski wasn't impressed initially (we all know the "short fat Müller" nickname). In pre-season - I mean to remember snapping that up somewhere - he just had to fill in wherever someone was needed to get his first minutes.
His first competitive game only came in October, on match day 12, after pressure from president Neudecker. Bayern won 11-2, Müller scored & immediately established himself, scoring like crazy for the rest of the season.
From an interview with Süddeutsche Zeitung 15 years ago:
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Tschik
Kept the Germanized spelling for authenticity.Tschik