That makes a lot of sense. It's probably one of the reasons I like Overath a lot more than Modric is his 60/70s playmaker size.
True. I was mainly focusing on the fact he put himself about and seemed to snap on the opponents heels like a dynamic DM.
General discussion thread
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That makes a lot of sense. It's probably one of the reasons I like Overath a lot more than Modric is his 60/70s playmaker size.
True. I was mainly focusing on the fact he put himself about and seemed to snap on the opponents heels like a dynamic DM.
I think some of it is down to the general playing environment. If Modric was awarded the space Overath sometimes has in that video (especially the space the pass receivers can run into), he'd be pinging much more long/through balls.
Same on the other side: If Overath would operate under modern space & time restrictions, I guess he'd act more indirect and CM/DLP-like (which was also part of his repertoire, but appears less in highlight videos).
In short, I reckon Modric would play more as a #10 and Overath more as a #8.
Modric doesn't match Overath's dribbling capabilities though
That assessment surprises me a bit, I must say. Dribbling is one of Modric's biggest strengths, imo.
I'd say that Modric is probably as close to him as any other modern player.
Just watched one of the many Modric comps on this occasion. He really did/does this kind of stuff every game.
Reminds me to really give him his dues when the CM playmakers top 20 is on. Such a genius.
Reminds me to really give him his dues when the CM playmakers top 20 is on. Such a genius.
Dribbling has many variants.
Pogba's dribbling is very different from Modric's for example.
Pogba's dribbling was more final third running at the opposition oriented while Modric's was mostly in the midfield more or less with the purpose of holding possession and working his way out of tight situations.
Overath's for me was much more like Pogba's (decisive direct dribbling in final third)
Pogba's dribbling is very different from Modric's for example.
Pogba's dribbling was more final third running at the opposition oriented while Modric's was mostly in the midfield more or less with the purpose of holding possession and working his way out of tight situations.
Overath's for me was much more like Pogba's (decisive direct dribbling in final third)
Probably Modric of a few years ago, though i agree he's a more conservative, link-up and possession focused player. Partly due to era differences, but also maybe just different strengths. I've not seen Modric change his style too much against lesser opposition where he gets more space.
That's great. Hope it stays up.
I missed the finer details they capture FM style these last few days.
As a random question, why on earth did Pes move away from this attribute system to there new one which has less detail and has stupid names like explosive power, which is apparently agility
for what are you using that side? i dont get it
for what are you using that side? i dont get it
Some of the discussion is pretty good on there and gives a good idea of general abilities to help with short listing.
I don't follow the new one. Just refer the old ones for classic players. But I have been on the page and agree it's shit.
for what are you using that side? i dont get it
Aye some discussion is good, they do have some good video links as well for some players.
I mostly refer for specific attributes for which I don't want to or have time to watch full games.
For example, recently I wanted to check how good Chumpitaz was in the air and they have the Jump (for leap) and header attributes that help.
1:49
I thoroughly enjoyed it.
Testing
The draft forum threads are visible to everyone on the forum in the football forum list unlike before
Poor caf! I'm guessing that this is the issue that @Niall will deal a bit later (if ever).
Good spot. I've removed it from the homepage 'Football' tab.
Some instances of Nilton Santos operating near the opposition penalty box
Great stuff @Physiocrat . Have always been advocating about his presence in the opposition half and doing a good job as an attacking LB in a 4-3-3.
Yeah, such a sublime player. I think he can excel in every role in a 4-men defense. The only issue I have with him is when people use him as a wingback in 3-5-2 and such.
I was always one who considered Santos as a more conservative full-back but this does highlight his forward impact quite well. It is a shame there are no complete games at club level for him as he was probably more expansive there. Interestingly though, Marzolini was considered more attacking at club level but the all-touch compilation @Pat_Mustard produced for Boca showed him to be very much a defensive left-back. That game could have been an anomaly however. This is one reason why I was dubious of Santos' reputation as an attacking left-back.
To be fair, he started as a left winger and I have seen this footage before and seen people claim that the very advanced clips are from his younger winger days.
Still very technically strong of course and quite often crossed the half way line but I wouldn't call him an opposition box fullback.
As @harms puts it, I'd be okay with him and his attacking contribution in most back 4 setups except the diamond and of course the 3-5-2
As its not relevant to the game i will respond here.
As someone that rates all 3 very highly id say Schweini is more or less rated fairly while both Xavi and Scholes are underrated as feck. Scholes gives nothing to your team apart from the usual BS how he cant defend and while Xavi actually manages to make some sort of impact its nowhere near as big as it should.
Personally i rate him as the best midfielder that ever played the game but i accept not everyone does so, even then his impact should be AT LEAST close to the impact that Rijkaard or Matthaus are having to their teams.
Think we in drafts are still stuck in the dark ages(though it seems we are making baby steps in the right direction) where we rate specific roles and player specialist more then we do systems and philosophies ergo system players(if the system is right) and more importantly players that can pretty much create the whole system almost on their own - Xavi.
As someone that rates all 3 very highly id say Schweini is more or less rated fairly while both Xavi and Scholes are underrated as feck. Scholes gives nothing to your team apart from the usual BS how he cant defend and while Xavi actually manages to make some sort of impact its nowhere near as big as it should.
Personally i rate him as the best midfielder that ever played the game but i accept not everyone does so, even then his impact should be AT LEAST close to the impact that Rijkaard or Matthaus are having to their teams.
Think we in drafts are still stuck in the dark ages(though it seems we are making baby steps in the right direction) where we rate specific roles and player specialist more then we do systems and philosophies ergo system players(if the system is right) and more importantly players that can pretty much create the whole system almost on their own - Xavi.
Yea, well put.
For Xavi I certainly agree. To me he's one of the best midfielders ever. Yes his impact should be considered as great as Rijkaard or Matthaus as he was THAT good. Problem is people tend to frown upon players like Xavi operating outside their comfort zone, despite him excelling in a different Spanish set up in 2008. I've picked him loads and he is always seen a bit as a defensive liability.
As for Scholes, he's definitely underrated, but to me his defensive game is not comparable to the others mentioned(like Pirlo) and myself included, can't put him in the same bracket as Xavi for example.
Agree that wingback in 3-5-2 is misusing him. He also was not one of the fastest wingbacks that would be needed to spring in attack at any given chance when possession is regained.
To be honest at least there is some credible input and also scarce amount of videos to see Nilton's attacking output. For Marzolini I'm not so sure, unless something "pops up".
And also one of the most boring
A very good footage i just watched on the 3rd man of German 70s playmaking Heinz Flohe, often forgotten behind Netzer and Overath but he's a great footballer worth watching too.
I haven't released my Nilton Santos profile yet but it might prove very controversial. My brief summary is that I do not see him as an elite attacking left back at all.
Thanks for the vid share. He looks a quality player. He reminded me a bit of Rivaldo given his excellent feet and somewhat gangly body. He played alongside Overath at Koln so would be interesting how (presumably) they worked well together considering how Overath never played well with Netzer. Given the footage it might be that Flohe never dropped as deep as Netzer which allowed him and Overath to occupy different zones on the pitch.
TBF that was my original position although the vid compilation does show some forward ability. The question though would whether he was actually playing LB at the time.
Not sure that's so important - if he was capable of quality attacking play (the video can give hints at best, although the few scenes look good), I see no reason why he'd not be capable of playing a two-way fullback in a more modern setting. The tactical role of wide defenders in the 50s might just not have called for tapping that potential. Just speculation, of course.
Yeah true that. It's always tempting to see a match-up has 11 head-to-head individual battles, when it's more about 1 battle between 2 collective units with, after all, 1 ball between them.
My impression is that any defender that didn't just lump it forward in the black-and-white age was seen as an exception and an all-rounder.
He was technically refined in comparison to your average full back at the time and even compared to most full-backs generally, as we can see with the ball-flicking over peoples heads but in terms of fluency with ball-carrying and ability to consistently run at players one v one, from what I've seen - quite cumbersome and his goals record is very poor. Djalma on the other hand gets underrated going forward - he started his career as a CM, and his goals record is superior and to my mind he looks more comfortable with the ball even if he doesn't have the same moments of 'flair'.
Umm, I am not sure that a player who is not a decent dribbler can't be considered attacking enough. Take Gary Neville, not the best of dribblers, but could whip it in well. Nilton's crossing was more that decent and we of course have footage of Pele scoring of his crosses in 1958.
Also, he was considered more of a inward playmaker going forward like Junior. You can sense that as well from the 1958 game footage.
I really think that is pushing it. Yes he was capable of helping out, but he was a defence first full back and certainly not a 'playmaker' in the true sense of the word by 1958. It is a shame we never saw him in his prime because with that extra athleticism, he might indeed have been more attacking in nature but by this age he was only capable of the odd foray forward and yes he still showed 'class' but in an all time context, I'd say limited going forwards. His goals record is also pitiful, 11 goals in 700 odd appearances?
For me the first truly attacking full back was Facchetti. Nilton is more of a classy defensive full back in the mould of a Maldini - can pull off the odd silks, good all round player but not someone you'd say is naturally a 'baller' with the ball. Djalma for me was more calm with ball at feet and the more impressive player in general.
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