General discussion thread
- Thread starter Synco
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Agreed. Leeds were unlucky, probably deserved a European Cup. As far as I'm aware, both decisions would have been technically correct at the time. But obviously because they were ridiculous, the convention was that such offsides were typically not given. Problem was, as with any convention, the absolutist-type refs who didn't officiate with common sense nor an appreciation of the spirit of the laws, but a black-and-white interpretation of the rules.
The Keegan one being another example of bad faith officiating.
And probably falls in the same category as Clive Thomas chalking off Zico's winner for Brazil in the 1978 World Cup.
Interesting that all of these decisions are in the mid-70s to early 80s - perhaps there was some tension between the common sense and the black-and-white refs around this time. Can't remember any goals getting ruled out for this reason later in the 80s and into the 90s.
A great quote from Jimmy Johnstone about his feelings before the 1967 EC final (Celtic vs Inter) 
Jimmy Johnstone said:
Lovely story
Facchetti could be a perfect Superman/Clark Kent.
Best possible illustration of Jinky's story.
So was this the first time a Di Stefano team won a draft?
This was his 4th championship in less than 2 years (after winning zeru tituli in the preceding decade):
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the...le-enigma-vs-jim-beam-final-score-8-5.458458/ (Enigma_87)
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/dp-draft-720p-finals-harms-vs-pat-mustard.466681/ (Pat_Mustard)
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/madn-draft-final-p-nut-vs-gstq.467870/ (GodShaveTheQueen)
Those teams all picked him up late in the day though - before the final for Enigma and I, and before the SF for GSTQ. I do believe this is the first time someone has picked him from the outset and won a draft with him, so well played!
Well, that's interesting.
@oneniltothearsenal and I also landed the first championship for Cruyff (against a Di Stéfano led team, ironically enough).
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/ludo-draft-finals-onenil-vs-gstq.447977/
Great sweeper keeper skill from Beckenbauer.
I see, cheers. Just remembered he was the (blocked) top player in the Virgin draft not too long ago, but not clued up on final winners since then.
This angle makes sense too, of course. Especially well played in a draft with heavy initial restrictions on teambuilding.
Stats-heavy article on peak Messi from 2014 posted in the footies today:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lionel-messi-is-impossible/
Just amazing.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lionel-messi-is-impossible/
Just amazing.
Well, that's interesting.
@oneniltothearsenal and I also landed the first championship for Cruyff (against a Di Stéfano led team, ironically enough).
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/ludo-draft-finals-onenil-vs-gstq.447977/
That final was a sham and should have been Di Stefano's (picked in initial drafting) and my first draft win. Fecking Edgar didn't give any reinforcements for the final and I lost interest. Didnt even submit a formation and tactics if I remember correctly.
Could have been my best draft team of all time
Well, that's interesting.
@oneniltothearsenal and I also landed the first championship for Cruyff (against a Di Stéfano led team, ironically enough).
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/ludo-draft-finals-onenil-vs-gstq.447977/
Ah the glory days!
Probably my favorite team ever in drafts and IMO, one of the strongest draft winners of any draft. A well-deserved win for the legendary Cruyff-Beckenbauer core!
Ah, the glory days!
Probably my favorite team ever in drafts and IMO, one of the strongest draft winners of any draft. A well-deserved win for the legendary Cruyff-Beckenbauer core!
It looks lovely, Oneil. I like the 70s theme so much.
Talking about the strongest team, I think one of @Jim Beam's teams could be the candidate( magic square? I'm not sure, but it still fascinates).
Both teams there are nothing short of ridiculous.Ah the glory days!
Probably my favorite team ever in drafts and IMO, one of the strongest draft winners of any draft. A well-deserved win for the legendary Cruyff-Beckenbauer core!
Yea, that would be my favorite team in all these years too. It's a move everyone makes now, but picturing Iniesta fit seamlessly in the magic square for the first time looked absolutely astonishing to me. I don't remember exactly but I think it beat Pele-Ronaldo-Maradona front 3 in the finals
@Šjor Bepo
I know it’s not just you so I guess this is a general one.
Still don’t understand why the community here rates VVD so highly and better than some absolute all time greats.
He just hasn’t had the longevity nor the consistency. The best players don’t have the drop off he had over the past year or so, irrespective of how the rest of the team performs around them.
I know it’s not just you so I guess this is a general one.
Still don’t understand why the community here rates VVD so highly and better than some absolute all time greats.
He just hasn’t had the longevity nor the consistency. The best players don’t have the drop off he had over the past year or so, irrespective of how the rest of the team performs around them.
His peak was brilliant, so he was rated based on that. I imagine that the lack of longevity and the fact that he was a bit of a late bloomer would significantly hurt his reputation in the future though. The claim for him being the greatest CB in Premier League's history is certainly off the table by now.
I don’t doubt he was very good at his peak but that peak was short and didn’t result in him winning very much personally or as a team.
I can’t see how he’s viewed as better than some of the all time great CBs here when his peak has been so short and the rest before and after so throughly average.
His form with Liverpool during 1-2 months has been in a declining stage and I'm not happy with his form too, but I would say his peak was very brilliant. Right now, it's not time to decide his overall places structure in football rankings, since I will watch his form in his first World Cup and the rest of Liverpool matches.
But yes, this season he's very underperformed.
His peak is just about as good as it gets, and we tend to judge players on their 3-year peaks here. Only three defenders in history have ever finished higher in the Ballon D'Or. Few defenders have ever had such an impact on their team as to how he instantly transformed Liverpool's defence. And defending on the half-way line is hard, as is defending in the current era which is so stacked in favour of attackers. Not many defenders have thrived or could survive in such an environment.
I agree that longevity works against him of course. Still I reckon that can be overblown too. He has won an individual award in 7 seasons of his career so far. And okay let's knock off a couple of those from Scotland, he still has 4-5 great seasons now. Player of the Year at Southampton in 2015-16 prompting Liverpool to pay a world record fee, in the Champions League squad of the season in 2017-18 taking Liverpool to the final, sweeping the awards in 2018-19, much the same again in 2019-20, then misses a season through injury, but back again to the top in 2021-22 named in the PL and CL teams of the year again. That is a sustained record of performing at the top.
As for the level he's returned to following his injury, I thought in 2021-22 he got up to about 95% of the level he was at from 2018-2020, which was good enough to be as good as any other CB in the world. If we were to micro-analyse individual seasons of all of the greats, we'd likely see similar performance variations - i.e. where they have an absolute peak period of 2-3 years, and a few good-to-great seasons dotted either side of that, with patches of poor form in there too similar to what Van Dijk is going through right now.
That's the main point for me. There seem to be two common ways to judge players in the draft community:
1) peak version, backed by the requirement of multiple high level seasons to rule out one hit wonders
2) an approximate career average, which defines the player's general level/greatness
I much prefer 1), as it gives a quite clear idea of the player put on the draft pitch. I find the career average approach rather vague, and it becomes even more arbitrary with older players, for which a halfway realistic picture of their career trajectories is impossible.
In my view, if you put the ~2019 version of VVD in your defense - judged according to 1) -, you simply have a dominant CB on a massive level, especially in a modern role with high line defending and playmaking duties.
Agree. I reckon the inevitable lack of day-to-day scrutiny of earlier players can lead to pretty mythical pictures of them. I think that's a big part of the widespread "there are no great defender anymore" sentiment. And a reason why modern greats are by and large underrated compared to older ones.
How long is Krol peak at CB? How much did Bergomi play at CB at highest level? As per usual the modern player will be put under microscope while oldies will get away with murder.
76/77-83/84 (I'm not going to count Cannes). But then he isn't considered among the crème de la crème of liberos.
“Naples is a poor city. When I once received pasta, wine and a gold medal at a supporters meeting, I did not want to accept that”.
‘I only realized that in my first game in Vancouver, in 1980, against New York Cosmos. We had some nice international footballers in our team, but it was different football. What was normal for us was abnormal for them. They couldn’t understand our views, our ideas about football. Then I said to Alan Ball (a famous Englishman, red.): why don’t you? Oh yes, he said. Skipping a station, always looking for depth, even now you often see that going wrong. It just goes wide, wide, back. If you did that to Rinus Michels, he would whistle at the training.’
Typical Rudi Krol
‘I only realized that in my first game in Vancouver, in 1980, against New York Cosmos. We had some nice international footballers in our team, but it was different football. What was normal for us was abnormal for them. They couldn’t understand our views, our ideas about football. Then I said to Alan Ball (a famous Englishman, red.): why don’t you? Oh yes, he said. Skipping a station, always looking for depth, even now you often see that going wrong. It just goes wide, wide, back. If you did that to Rinus Michels, he would whistle at the training.’
Typical Rudi Krol
How much of that was at highest level though, not really relevant how he is considered what is relevant is that his "lack" of longevity isnt questioned while that isnt the case with modern player, in this case Van Dijk.
1977-1980 Period
Krol started to play as a sweeper in 1977 at Ajax( during 1976 he still played as lb in the national team and Van Kraay was the main libero). He was a main man libero and captain in Ajax, under his leadership as a captain and commander in the backline. Ajax was so successful during that period, they won 2 Eredivisie( 1979,1980), 1KNVB Cup(1979), and reached the semi-finals in European Cup against Malmo in 1980( no offense to Malmo, Ajax should have won against them). The quality of the Dutch league during that time was also no joke, they were top 5 leagues in Europe( at that time South American League like Brazil and Argentina still had some powers in their hands).
https://kassiesa.net/uefa/data/method1/crank1980.html
Uefa Ranking in 1980( 5 years period)
In the international tournament, during that period he was a captain of the Netherland national team that reached the finale in the World Cup 1978. From what I've seen in all footage in that tournament, he played well but wasn't on the level of excellent( you will see he produced some rough sliding tackles and did some unnecessary challenges). He also played well in Euro 1980 too.
In personal awards: During 1977-1980, Krol was nominated for Ballon d'Or for 4 consecutive years and finished in 18th place (1977), 6th place (1978), 3rd place(1979), and 16th place (1980). He was also on the list of Batty's World Soccer World XI in 1977 and 1978, the 1978 World Cup Team of Tournament, and Fifa XI in 1979.
Post-1980-1983
He went to the USA for a short period and yeah his quality stood among USA people, he was named in 1980 NASL-All stars in the first team. Then he came to Napoli and made another career highlight in his twilight years before he came to Italy, many Italian soccer fans and some newspapers doubt his ability and that he was too old for this league, he might not perform well, he had already past his peak Bla bla bla. Krol answered his criticism with his superb performance in the 1980/1981 season. His performance was one of the best of any foreigners until today. Napoli finished 3rd place in that season. He continued his superb performances in the next season too, Napoli finished 4th place in 1981-1982. In 1982/1983 he was still a top player, but not as in his first two seasons in Napoli. In the last season(1983-1984), he faced some big injuries, and then his performance was never the same as it should be. After 1983-1984, he was already 35 years old and faced some big injuries, so Napoli parted him to France and we all know who was the new player that Napoli signed after Krol moved to France.
Krol's Rating in Italy( I use Media Voto).
1980-1981 6.93 ( number 1 from any players in Serie A)
1981-1982 6.91 ( number 1 from any players in Serie A)
1982-1983 6.23 ( number 10 from any players in Serie A, 3rd from any defenders( his rating was only below Passarella(6.38) and Edinho (6.58))
1983-1984 5.71( number 17 from any players in Serie A), 3rd from any defenders( below Gerrets(6.24) and again Passarella( 6.68))
Italy in the early 1980s was already a top league in Europe.
http://www.dbscalcio.it/sn-schedaCa...gnomePlayer=Krol&dataNascitaPlayer=24-03-1949
https://kassiesa.net/uefa/data/method1/crank1984.html Uefa ranking in 1984
He also won Guerin d'Oro in 1981 and he was the first foreigner to win this award( later by Diego, Brehme, Platini, Tevez, Thuram, Nedved and more).
Established in 1976, the Guerin d'Oro was awarded to the player in Serie A with at least 19 games played, which had obtained the best average-media rating. The latter was obtained by calculating the average rating of each player's season, based on weekly rating reports of Guerin Sportivo and the three main Italian sports dailies: La Gazzetta dello Sport, Corriere dello Sport, and Tuttosport.[2]
The award was suspended during the 2009–10 and 2010–11 seasons and discontinued after the 2014–15 season.[1]
The award was suspended during the 2009–10 and 2010–11 seasons and discontinued after the 2014–15 season.[1]
Krol was also considered as a media darling due to his good-looking( handsome) and he was also a fashion icon too.
So, I think @harms is correct that Krol during 1976-1984 was a top-class player and libero/cb, his accolades have proved them all. And he performed superbly all at high-level football competitions in Holland, Italy, and international tournaments like World Cup and Euro. His main competitors during that era were Passarella( peak at similar period) and Scirea( peak during the early 1980s). Franz went to the USA in 1977 and Elias peaked during 1974-1977, Krol during that period mainly played as a full-back and at the beginning of his new role( sweeper)
And yeah people always compare him to Passarella and Scirea( they are all in the same class).
His footage against Juventus in 1980/1981( he played well in this game).
Unfortunately, they didn't have much of his footages in Napoli
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Some of those dbscalcio media ratings are strange. If i'm understanding the position ranking part correctly (as general elegancia describes Krol's) then they have Igor Kolyvanov's 92/93 and 93/94 seasons (where he scored 5 and 6 league goals) rated as the third best striker in Serie A? surely it's not the third best of all players?
interesting that Baggio's higher ratings were all with Bologna and Brescia.
interesting that Baggio's higher ratings were all with Bologna and Brescia.
That would be right. The positional categorisation can rule out other high performers who played in broadly similar roles. For 92/93 It went Mancini > Balbo > Kolyvanov for the CF position. Van Basten would also be ahead but he only played 15 games so was ruled out. But if we include 'second strikers', then Kolyvanov is 9th also behind Sosa, Signori, Asprilla, Francescoli and Baggio. Some of their positions - and they have a lot - had more depth than others.
With Baggio and a few others (Mancini had a similar pattern of ratings), It almost appears as if they are hugely impressed with the new kid on the block, then they have higher relative expectations of them during their actual peak years, and it feels like they slightly nostalgically over-rate the final great year of their career. And where a big team is struggling, the ratings of the star player often take a hit as well, which might come back to those higher expectations too. So for example in the 92/93 season Fiorentina were relegated, despite Batistuta scoring 16 goals in the league, and the media only ranked him as the 18th best CF, which feels a little harsh when he was 5th top scorer.
as per usual, awards/ratings are shit and grass is green
On Christmas Day 1937, Sam Bartram the Charlton goalkeeper was in the papers after a bizarre incident in a match against Chelsea at Stamford Bridge. With the score at 1-1, the game had to be called off on 61 minutes due to thick fog. Unfortunately for Bartram, he was the last to be made aware. "Soon after the kick-off, [fog] began to thicken rapidly at the far end, travelling past Vic Woodley in the Chelsea goal and rolling steadily towards me," he wrote in his autobiography. "The referee stopped the game, and then, as visibility became clearer, restarted it. We were on top at this time, and I saw fewer and fewer figures as we attacked steadily.
"I paced up and down my goal-line, happy in the knowledge that Chelsea were being pinned in their own half. 'The boys must be giving the Pensioners the hammer,' I thought smugly, as I stamped my feet for warmth. Quite obviously, however, we were not getting the ball into the net. For no players were coming back to line up, as they would have done following a goal. Time passed, and I made several advances towards the edge of the penalty area, peering through the murk, which was getting thicker every minute. Still I could see nothing. The Chelsea defence was clearly being run off its feet.
"After a long time a figure loomed out of the curtain of fog in front of me. It was a policeman, and he gaped at me incredulously. 'What on earth are you doing here?' he gasped. 'The game was stopped a quarter of an hour ago. The field's completely empty'. And when I groped my way to the dressing-room, the rest of the Charlton team, already out of the bath and in their civvies, were convulsed with laughter."
Puzzle - Find the last player in the series along with how you got there
Le Tissier - Maldini - Maier - Puyol - Billy Mcneill - Giggs - ?????
Hint - Michaelf7777777
Le Tissier - Maldini - Maier - Puyol - Billy Mcneill - Giggs - ?????
Hint - Michaelf7777777