Fredge | Deal done

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He sure likes non committal comments. Not especially endearing
 
roonster09 said:
Can't wait to see how they will unveil him, if Fred the red Mascot is not used, it would be disappointing. :D
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If we don't unveil him with Fred the red mascot taking his mascot off to show Fred, our marketing department should be fired on the spot.
 
TheReligion said:
@MJJ I was replying as above. I have seen Fred play and think it's a great signing for the club.

I doubt many here have watched the rise of Keita but now think he's worth every penny of his fee and is much better than Fred.

#caflogic
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Keita plays in a better league though so maybe some people have seen more of it but again, its stupid fighting over the fee now.
 
MJJ said:
Keita plays in a better league though so maybe some people have seen more of it but again, its stupid fighting over the fee now.
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I think Mourinho had different priorities in previous transfer windows. Now he decided to sign a player with this profile and Keita, who probably would be a target, is not available. Lets see who will adapt faster in the Premiere League. I believe both will succeed.
 
Bogga said:
Anderson scares you? Guess you're too young to be scared of Kleberson...

At least Anderson looked promising and actually developed a bit until it all went south
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I think he meant to say 'scarred'. ;)
 
simonhch said:
Sorry but I disagree with this. The golden rule of football when it comes to transitions, is that the ball can always move faster than a player. Meaning that you don’t have to be fleet of foot to be excellent in the transition. You just have to use the ball well. Obviously in forward positions you need pace to capitalise on this to a certain degree. During some of our finest transition years we had players like Carrick, and Cantona at the heart of our teams. Neither being particular fast. Especially Carrick. But their brains and passing made the transition flow.

In fact United had Carrick and Scholes through the middle, neither of whom are fast. But they used the ball quickly when the opportunity presented itself.

I think the much bigger issue is the movement of our front players. Fergie’s teams always stretched the pitch, made runs in behind and were typified by clever fluid movement of the front players. Mourinho’s United has been largely absent width and dynamic movement. Often Matic will get his head up and find both wide forwards have come deep to get the ball, and one will have to carry it up field, allowing teams time to regroup. That destroys the transition IMO.

My favourite examples of brilliant transitions were with Rooney and Ronaldo. They were both always aware of where the other was, and constantly making runs and space for each other. When Carrick or Scholes picked up the ball in a counterattacking situation, you knew he had options spreading and exploding in front of him. So he had 2 or 3 possible outlets. Now we have Sanchez or Mata standing around the center circle. Lukaku, and Rashford when he plays, are the only ones who ever go in behind. Lingard sometimes.

The other thing missing is synchronicity. I remember having Scholes and Keane in midfield - I’ll pause while you wipe the drool from your chin - and you could genuinely say that they didn’t have clearly defined roles such as DM and AM. Scholes was naturally more creative, and Keane naturally more energetic, but they had this innate understanding that “if you go up, I stay back” and vice versa. That typifies a well functioning unit. The same could be said for Rooney and Ronaldo, or Yorke and Cole. If one came deep, the other made the run. Naturally in those scenarios Yorke and Rooney came deep more often, due to their skill sets, but the innate synchronicity was still there.

We lack that all over the field, especially in midfield. And that makes it too predictable. I think the lack of dynamic movement from Matic is the last in a long list of transition problems, because his use of the ball when options are open, is generally fast and excellent.

What’s perplexing about all of this, is that earlier in his career, Mourinho was famous for emphasising the importance of the transitional phase, I.e. a team’s success is dependent on their ability to turn defense into attack as quickly as possible, and attack back into defense equally as fast. He still excels in regrouping the defensive shape better than any other coach, maybe Simeone aside, in the world IMO. But his attacking transitions look disconnected these days. Maybe he is being out coached, and out dated, but really these are time tested and simple principles. I think the truth is that he’s become increasingly conservative as a coach and just doesn’t do the work on the training ground required to build a cohesive counter attacking unit. Like all of all I am wondering if the addition of McKenna will help.

Finally, it explains Jose’s obsession with multi talented players. A player like Martial, who can be excellent in the attacking transition, doesn’t do the reverse transition anywhere near as well. Willian, in contrast does. It’s also why he loves Lingard. He has that balance to transition both ways very diligently. The problem for us, is that the type of player who is excellent at defensive transitions, is rarely the best at attacking ones.

We’ll have to see what this summer’s recruitment brings.
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This post should be published. Very insightful.
 
On a more positive note, Fred, having played in Russia the weather in Manchester will not be an issue.

Excellent post @simonhch
 
simonhch said:
What’s perplexing about all of this, is that earlier in his career, Mourinho was famous for emphasising the importance of the transitional phase, I.e. a team’s success is dependent on their ability to turn defense into attack as quickly as possible, and attack back into defense equally as fast. He still excels in regrouping the defensive shape better than any other coach, maybe Simeone aside, in the world IMO. But his attacking transitions look disconnected these days. Maybe he is being out coached, and out dated, but really these are time tested and simple principles. I think the truth is that he’s become increasingly conservative as a coach and just doesn’t do the work on the training ground required to build a cohesive counter attacking unit. Like all of all I am wondering if the addition of McKenna will help.

.
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No, no, no and no. When media bang something into your head, after a while it sticks. We saw some amazing attacking play last season. Some of them were incredibly fast, especially the big games we won. I think the problem is Mourinho is unable to get them to play consistently, the team lacks leadership.

Fergie always have a leader on the pitch, Keane was vocal, Vidic a defensive monster, Rooney and Ronaldo were motivational i.e when you see their drive, it makes other wants to play better. When you look at the current United side, you can't point to a leader. They all fold in easily when things are tough. I thought Pogba will be able to provide this, but it looks like he needs someone to hold his hand as well. If Mourinho can get a leader in there and makes them perform 80% 9.5 times out of 10, the story will different.
 
Sultan said:
On a more positive note, Fred, having played in Russia the weather in Manchester will not be an issue.

Excellent post @simonhch
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The only way now he won't be successful or even do as well as the mighty Alexander Büttner, is if there was an actual curse on south-American at United.
 
TheReligion said:


The scoutnation videos are always good as attached.

I see him as a classic box to box player. He's very central and can play as AM, CM or DM. Good engine, technically solid and acts as the glue between defence and attack. He's a more forward thinking version of Fernandinho but in the bracket of Kante. He'll bustle about the pitch, win possession and get the ball forward quickly. Basically I see him really helping our slow build up play and transitions from attack to defence.
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Looking at these, it seems to me that he is more of a number 8 than number 6. Not sure that we need one of these but surely his passing reminds me of Michael Carrick
 


Castles tweet on 11th January signalling our interest. Pretty impressive.

Talking about impressive, @simonhch's post was pretty awesome too.
 
drmuji said:
Looking at these, it seems to me that he is more of a number 8 than number 6. Not sure that we need one of these but surely his passing reminds me of Michael Carrick
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I would argue that is exactly what we need. Matic is a 6. Pogba is better at a free role ala a 10. Fred will be the 8 and connect the team I hope.
 
KM said:


Castles tweet on 11th January signalling our interest. Pretty impressive.

Talking about impressive, @simonhch's post was pretty awesome too.
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Samuel Luckhurst too, posted on May 23rd
Fred, who was named in the 23-man Brazil World Cup squad, is travelling to Europe next week for the national team's friendly with Croatia at Liverpool's Anfield stadium and could finalise his move to United during his stay in the north-west of England. Anfield is only 29 miles away from United's Carrington training complex, where Fred would undergo a medical.
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From the very little I’ve seen from YouTube, and maybe it’s just because he’s left footed he reminds me of Matuidi.
 
On another positive note, this unveiling is not going to stretch our social media team #fredthered
 
TheFlagStaysDown said:
thats your opinion, you're entitled to that. Matic had a long average period too, but his fans like you like to overlook that for some reason. Mourinho backed him which is fine, it's his preferable player for that role, Herrera got some injuries when he could get back to line up too, we also played some absolute dull football at times with Matic and Pogba who looked better next to Herrera to last season, in terms of the overall midfield performance and lastly I think with Herrea we won two cups, with Matic, amazing second place, what trophy is that being some 18 points behind citeh?
I dont think there is personally a big difference between the two, they are both different players, if Mourinho likes a player who can sit deeper and be rock solid like Matic why not. Herrera would be much better in a high pressing team, which we unfortunately are not. I'd persononally rotate them more next season and directly, to keep both fresh and play more midfield three but with Matic we are too overplayed against top sides.

Also the point with Van Gaal was that heś just an a-hole, doesn't like some players, and plays others you could see that with dimarria, falcao, sweinsteiger etc.. Herrera-Carrick was a great midfield for few month when LG decided to drop Herrera for some reason and all went to shit... and judge matic in his career at United, I wonder how he would do in the shockingly slow possession based system under Van Gaal, I bet he would never even buy him...
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Matic did not have a long average period. Let's not rewrite recent history. He had a brief average period at a time he was over worked (because none of the other midfielders was playing at high levels consistently and injuries). Matic was our best midfielder and one of our best players this season. In fact, he was one of those few indispensable players.
Football is what it is anyway. You prefer Herrera and that's fine. I just don't see how he matches up to Matic especially in terms of consistency and ability to form a core of a title winning team.
 
EyeInTheSky said:
@TheReligion @Ban

Wouldn’t it be hilarious if we made these 2 major signings of talent before everyone else. After the usual melts were moaning about our supposed premature bad summer window and we end up with a double scoop.

Like it matters who does what first.
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But they're worse than any player Liverpool will buy so..
 
Hopefully he can be that player who can connect midfield and attack, Pogba was meant to be that player but maybe we misunderstood his core strenghts( for all his ability he has a tendency to take way too many touches in midfield). With a dynamic player like Fred maybe Pogba will have the freedom that he always needed, ie fred can be the one who drives forward and Pogba can receive the ball closer to the opposition box where he can really do damage. Sanchez and Lukaku also become more dangerous, if we add a top class right winger, and decent full backs we could be in business.
 
simonhch said:
Sorry but I disagree with this. The golden rule of football when it comes to transitions, is that the ball can always move faster than a player. Meaning that you don’t have to be fleet of foot to be excellent in the transition. You just have to use the ball well. Obviously in forward positions you need pace to capitalise on this to a certain degree. During some of our finest transition years we had players like Carrick, and Cantona at the heart of our teams. Neither being particular fast. Especially Carrick. But their brains and passing made the transition flow.

In fact United had Carrick and Scholes through the middle, neither of whom are fast. But they used the ball quickly when the opportunity presented itself.

I think the much bigger issue is the movement of our front players. Fergie’s teams always stretched the pitch, made runs in behind and were typified by clever fluid movement of the front players. Mourinho’s United has been largely absent width and dynamic movement. Often Matic will get his head up and find both wide forwards have come deep to get the ball, and one will have to carry it up field, allowing teams time to regroup. That destroys the transition IMO.

My favourite examples of brilliant transitions were with Rooney and Ronaldo. They were both always aware of where the other was, and constantly making runs and space for each other. When Carrick or Scholes picked up the ball in a counterattacking situation, you knew he had options spreading and exploding in front of him. So he had 2 or 3 possible outlets. Now we have Sanchez or Mata standing around the center circle. Lukaku, and Rashford when he plays, are the only ones who ever go in behind. Lingard sometimes.

The other thing missing is synchronicity. I remember having Scholes and Keane in midfield - I’ll pause while you wipe the drool from your chin - and you could genuinely say that they didn’t have clearly defined roles such as DM and AM. Scholes was naturally more creative, and Keane naturally more energetic, but they had this innate understanding that “if you go up, I stay back” and vice versa. That typifies a well functioning unit. The same could be said for Rooney and Ronaldo, or Yorke and Cole. If one came deep, the other made the run. Naturally in those scenarios Yorke and Rooney came deep more often, due to their skill sets, but the innate synchronicity was still there.

We lack that all over the field, especially in midfield. And that makes it too predictable. I think the lack of dynamic movement from Matic is the last in a long list of transition problems, because his use of the ball when options are open, is generally fast and excellent.

What’s perplexing about all of this, is that earlier in his career, Mourinho was famous for emphasising the importance of the transitional phase, I.e. a team’s success is dependent on their ability to turn defense into attack as quickly as possible, and attack back into defense equally as fast. He still excels in regrouping the defensive shape better than any other coach, maybe Simeone aside, in the world IMO. But his attacking transitions look disconnected these days. Maybe he is being out coached, and out dated, but really these are time tested and simple principles. I think the truth is that he’s become increasingly conservative as a coach and just doesn’t do the work on the training ground required to build a cohesive counter attacking unit. Like all of all I am wondering if the addition of McKenna will help.

Finally, it explains Jose’s obsession with multi talented players. A player like Martial, who can be excellent in the attacking transition, doesn’t do the reverse transition anywhere near as well. Willian, in contrast does. It’s also why he loves Lingard. He has that balance to transition both ways very diligently. The problem for us, is that the type of player who is excellent at defensive transitions, is rarely the best at attacking ones.

We’ll have to see what this summer’s recruitment brings.
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I am sorry if i misunderstand but i don´t think Matic vision and passing ability is on par with Scholes and Carrick.
 
Gordon S said:
I am sorry if i misunderstand but i don´t think Matic vision and passing ability is on par with Scholes and Carrick.
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You also can’t compare the players. If you haven’t got the players making the movements whereby players like Matic can shiw their vision and passing, you do restric them. Fair to say after SAF, Carrick was unfortunately also restricted.
 
red thru&thru said:
You also can’t compare the players. If you haven’t got the players making the movements whereby players like Matic can shiw their vision and passing, you do restric them. Fair to say after SAF, Carrick was unfortunately also restricted.
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Nothing to do with movement. We move the ball too slow.
 
JK-27 said:
So Fred is another defensive midfielder? So next season we'll probably be playing 4-3-3 with 2 defensive midfielders who can essentially make us a back 6 when necessary, and Pogba being allowed to stay forward?
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He is box to box midfielder wich changes the play fast from defence to attack, but he is good defensive. Very dynamic player. Great passes and vision.
 
PoTMS said:
Those people would be wrong. I'm happy with this signing but let's not pretend Fred, someone we all knew nothing about before January, is all of a sudden better than Keita.
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Isn't Keita a little bit too old?
 
bet he get's mishandled by mourinho, playing style wise he is very similar to what pogba was like at juventus but I can see cautious mourinho trying to make him a deep lying playmaker like he tried with pogba
 
Further to Simon’s excellent post, with reference to the last para; the one thing that perplexes me about Jose, is when he first arrived, he made a point of saying he would use “specialists “ as opposed to versatile players. Yet, he persists in playing players out of position as well as versatile players. I’m sure partly due to the lack of options but hopefully this will largely be addressed in the coming weeks.
 
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